Star Trek and Cannon... darned confusing!

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by A'Tun-Te, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Greetings:

    Since the very beginning of Star Trek (Stardate: whatever/Earth date: 1966, September 8), the back then first series were fairly consequent regarding tech, species, in general, simply said.
    The last episode (Stardate: whatever/Earth date 1969, June 3), not much had changed in these runs, and movies as well followed a fairly strict code when it came to cannon.

    Fast forward: Star Trek The Next Generation.
    It is Septemer 28, 1987.
    Captain Kirk and his fellow "barbaric" friends are too old to fly, and were replaced, as logic would enforce (we can't have a captain which can barely stand up by himself at the helm, now can we???) by a ounger, much more vital crew.
    The new Enterprise as well has had, logically: as time evolves so does (technological) evolution, quite a few new tricks up it's sleeve, although, it was very much still the NCC-1701, a disk on a pole mounted to the body/warp section, which had two tilted poles on the rear holding the nacelles.
    Sure, the NCC-1701 D as well as the NCC-1701 E were more streamlined, aesthetically pleasing, but still very much the original NCC-1701 (not the technologies, naturally!).
    And things were still fairly well cannon, not much was called back or added (well there was the new enemies, races and spaces, of course!), all still went fairly straight-forward.
    And I ignore the Battle of Wolf 359, this was a BAD episode, entirely incorrect, but well...
    The exception on the rule, I guess.

    Fast forward once more: Voyager.
    Januari 16, 1995, Kate Mulgrew becomes the new captain in the series, no longer using the now well known Enterprise ship type Constitution Class, but the Voyager, an Interprid Class, as Captain Katherine Janeway.
    Now, I have to say, the ship was a surprise, but a welcome one.
    And unfortunately, there all pleasantness ended for me.

    Having seen Captain Jean Luc Picard, Captain Janeway simply did not reach this level of personality.
    The other crew members as well underperformed compared to the 'Picard Crew', and from early on, base values were changed in near every episode.
    Conflicting data, much being this data about their Borg nemesis, but surely not ending there, I began to get lost in the series, and simply quit seeing this monstrosity called Voyager.
    I need to say, I am autistic (Aspergers) with ADHD, I have need for set cannon, and I abhor changes like being thrown around in Voyager.

    Well yes, the previous 2 series had a few alterations as well, but minor, not that disturbing, and these were implemented brilliantly, hardly noticable, well explained.
    Not so in the latter series, where everyrthing more and more began to look like a joke more than a series.

    And take Discovery: what on Earth do I need to make of it?
    Spore Drive, nice looking Klingons (compared to the well known ones), marvelous ships, ...
    Is this still cannon?
    If so, then why has there never been reference ANYWHERE?
    I have the strong feeling this is more like a mirror version Star Trek, a thing on it's own.
    "What the hell was that beast???"
    Oh come on...
    It lives on Earth, you did not recognize it???
    Tres bizarre, this Discovery....
     
  2. Butters

    Butters Commodore Commodore

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    There is no canon. It’s not a religion, it’s a TV show, produced across many decades by different writers and show runners to meet different expectations of the viewers and sponsors.

    Internal logic and consistency is skin deep in Star Trek, and anyone craving that level of structure should look elsewhere or learn to live with the disappointment.
     
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  3. Abi Smith

    Abi Smith Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    TNG, DS9 and VOY are all fairly consistent in terms of tech and each series builds on the previous with some overlap and even evolution regarding information for the viewer regarding plot and character.
    Addressing changes in 'base values' it is important for each iteration of Star Trek franchise to make important differences in tone, otherwise you would have just had TOS.
    Though I will admit VOY's writing was extremely inconsistent.
    ENT and DSC are very different beasts entirely, for are start they are prequels and trying not to compromise elements of previous shows but they are also trying to cater to new viewers.
     
  4. 1001001

    1001001 Boorish Jackass Moderator

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  5. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Voy consistent with ST-TOS and ST-TNG?
    Wow, I must have seen a completely different (imaginary???) series then.

    I will not touch Ent, as this is more of a prequel kind of thing, but boy, Voy was, if I remember right, a mess when it comes to 'cannon'.

    Now, I do need to say, to those that say "there's no cannon!", that from my point of view, there was one up to TNG.
    For me, I approach this as a role-player, not the PC type of "role-play", but the old pen and paper role play (and yes, being 50, I have been in that era).

    I spoke of "Wolf 359, the bad episode".
    From what we had before this episode, the Borg were not a destructive force.
    Destructive as in literal destruction, mayhem and murder.
    No, they were about assimilation.
    The more the merrier.
    And then, Wolf 359...
    WHAT?
    WHO?
    ... What SHOULD have happened: Cube enters Wolf 359 zone.
    Begin transporting 250 to 500 Drones (at one time, yes, they were capable of sending 500 drones in one go, and seeing how many drones a cube has... easy peasy!!!) to each vessel, assimilate while cube sets onward to Earth.
    This would have been the logical, normal way to behave, a win-win-win situation.
    More "soldiers", more ships, more tech, more everything, and once completing the total modifications, join the cube in it's mission to increase chance by X%.

    But no, let's turn this into a graveyard, create a bit of unfortunate death, for the viewer's pleasure (or whatever reason they had), who cares about ideologies and "set in stone workings".
    In various episodes, Borg were quite very respective to life (note, life on itself, not the individualism most life forms seem to have), science, technologies and resources.
    They even went of road to recover ONE of their own (Hugh, I Borg, ST-TNG S5E23).
    ONE!!!
    But at Wolf they commense a slaughter?

    Oh sure, I get it, "we can't do that, because that would be check mate for the quadrant."
    But that does not mean they should change the principles of the Borg ideology like that.

    Not even mentioning the later Voy inconsistencies and idiocies regarding Borg.
    And Voy did not stop there, either.

    Being autistic, I need a logical and 'set in stone' story.
    Not a "The A-team" approach to what was a fairly awesome story.

    And really, there are other people that are better for the roles of Janeway and her crew, or Ent, or...
    I will not point to Kirk, he was a cowboy, yes, but if we take in regard in what era this was all done, we could not have expected the TNG approach, where peace was more conceptualized and pressed upon.
    And Sir Patrick Steward, as well as the rest of the crew, did an amazing job there, setting the bar to a new, sadly not even remotely approached, standard.
    Not only was the TNG series well written, it was also well played, all characters were believable.
    Which, in the latter series, sadly no longer was the case, it felt either over-played or under-played.

    There are a few exceptions, like Garak (Elim Garak, DS9), and a few others, but mainly, the franchise's quality took a deep fall...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  6. 1001001

    1001001 Boorish Jackass Moderator

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    I'm not going to get into a pissing match over "canon" on a fictional TV show.

    I will say, however, that I find the use of "rape" in this context to be pretty offensive.

    Clearly you have strong opinions, which is fine. I would try to express those in a way the fosters discussion (not that this hasn't been discussed 140 million times before).
     
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  7. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    My sincere apologies: I am not of English linguistic heritage.
    I thought that it would be correct, seeing it in it's entire sentence.
    I will edit this, please provide a better alternative?
    Well, i do not know if you are a reader, but take the books of Steven Erickson.
    If these were not consistent, would you still read them?
    Or Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter, or...?
    Cannon, even in fiction, is a must (read: need, in my case).
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  8. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Sure, in a perfect world it'd be nice if everything fits neatly together. But with different writers, producers, and even studios creating Trek over the past 50+ years--each with their own different take on it--it's probably more important that Trek maintains a general continuity more than a totally perfect one, IMO. In that regard, things hold up surprisingly well even today.
     
  9. A'Tun-Te

    A'Tun-Te Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Sadly, that is true...
    We claim to be so intellectual, yet look at what we do.

    We are, in fact, the dumbest intellectual life form in existence!
     
  10. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Commander Red Shirt

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    "Star Trek and Cannon"
    Sounds like the name of a cheap sitcom. :beer:
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  11. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    If one can make it fit together, more power to them. If one can't, more power to them.

    Just enjoy in whatever manner you chose.
     
  12. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Canon needs to evolve in two directions, neither of which constraining the other. The most obvious is through the stories that have already been told. The other is in terms of changing audience expectations, creativity, filmmakers access to technology, and science.

    Think of this: could the duel in the Mutara Nebula been shown as it is today? There might still be a tense hide and seek, but the concept of the nebula as a dense fog would not hold. Regula One and the planet beneath it would likely have been within the nebula. Moreover, it would likely be a planetary nebula, consisting of various forms of matter os varying sizes, some still gaseous, others rocky. A new Mutara Nebula would need to compensate.
     
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  13. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People who spell canon cannon should be shot out of the latter.
     
  14. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek lore has a "Mutara class nebula" listed as a singularly dense and localised varient noted for being so small and dangerous, setting itself apart from others. TNG has the Enterprise-D hide inside one from the Borg, Data noting it has 'dilithium hydroxyls' as a component. The game Amarda 1 has them as well, noting how "weird" they are.

    So no, they've made it clear that Mutara type nebulas are just crazy weird little mini ones.
     
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  15. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Any small nebula reachable by the Enterprise and Reliant would be too sparse to form the rocky Genesis planet--maybe tens of thousands of atoms per cubic cm. No, the nebula would have to be much larger, encompassing Regula One.
     
  16. Butters

    Butters Commodore Commodore

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    Star Trek isn’t consistent. It never has been. If its important to you, essential even, then Star Trek doesn’t meet your requirements. You’ll never enjoy it because you’ll always view it through a prism of what it should be, if only the writer did this, or the producer did that.

    In all honesty, I’d prefer it if all of Star Trek did in fact hang together like a perfect and intricate mesh of interwoven themes, characters, technology and events, and that my life would be enriched for understanding it in all of its magnificent complexity, but as a man much greater than me once said, it’s just a show.
     
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  17. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Dilithium is an element, apparently in the 200+ AMU range, given several thousand cubic kilometers of nebula composed of elements in the 100-200 AMU range per cubic meter, it has a density that really does ask many questions that might be answered by quantum gravity we don't understand and essentially, Starfleet just about does "understand", and even Data does raise en eyebrow to Mutara's, they have surprising levels of mass and energy.
     
  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    Nope.
    I'm sure there are canon violations in Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. And yes I would still read them. (and have). Because "canon" is not the most important thing in fiction. It might not even be in the top ten. Canon is just the official collection of related works. IIRC it was the Sherlock Holmes series where "Canon" was first applied as meaning the official stories in a work of fiction. And there are continuity issues in that series.
     
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  19. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Not really, compared to Trek their canon is smoother than any razor company could ever hope to promise.

    No, sorry, Fantastic Beasts and The Cursed Franchise fuck her work all up worse.
     
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  20. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    It's not that complicated: ST, TNG, DSN, VOY and movies 1 through 10. Done and done.