Star Trek (all eps!) Bechdel Test Review!!!

[JirinPanthosa]

I remember seeing an infographic on The Onion when Enterprise was first starting. One of the bullet points was: "Restores white males to their rightful position in the captain's chair".

Enterprise was easily the most cowardly of the Trek series.

 

[EnriqueH]

I remember seeing an infographic on The Onion when Enterprise was first starting. One of the bullet points was: "Restores white males to their rightful position in the captain's chair".

Oh, God, seriously?

Anyway, can someone tell me what's going on in thread?

I have an idea that the franchise is being tested for female representation? Is that right?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I remember seeing an infographic on The Onion when Enterprise was first starting. One of the bullet points was: "Restores white males to their rightful position in the captain's chair".

Enterprise was easily the most cowardly of the Trek series.

Well, it is true that it overlooked the representation of real people in real life, but it did explore the issue by showing humans being oppressed by aliens, and aliens growing up to give them a chance. Particularly a subordinate woman who was a minority on her ship and wasn't particularly happy on her own intolerant world decided not to be prejudiced against her white male boss by choosing to keep her job... It's like the real thing, right?

 

[Mr. Hengist]

The Bechdel test was invented by a radical lesbian cartoonist. I think it can be properly extended to test Star Trek-universe episodes by asking how many depict lesbian loves scenes, or at least two women open mouth kissing.

I completely agree that any Star Trek episode that fails to show at least one scene of two women engaged in open mouth kissing represents a failure of story-telling potential and there is a huge room for improvement here.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

To take these points a bit further, the bar for passing the Bechdel Test is incredibly minimal, and I believe intentionally so, in order to emphasize just how many works fail to pass even so minimal a test.

But is it, really, all that trivial to pass?

Compare with real life. How often, when any two women are having a conversation with each other, is it NOT about a man; and if not about a man, is said conversation worthy of being included in a dramatic portrayal?

Implicit in the Bechdel test is NOT just that it be a conversation between two woman about something other than a man; it must ALSO be something that is INTERESTING enough to put up on the screen as part of the narrative.

No one wants to hear Janeway and 7 gossiping with each other about what a little bitch Bilana Torres is, do they?

Does anyone want to hear Troi and Crusher's conversation about whether to use tampons or pads?

Of course not.

One reason that I think it's too easy to overinterpret results of the test is because the test itself represents an almost sarcastic understatement of the problem of disproportionality.

I think it's more a commentary on how insignificant and uninteresting most adult female interactions are, and also a commentary on how most females' lives revolve around the men in their lives.

Now obviously if the stories were about lesbians that wouldn't be the case. But the Star Trek universe isn't a lesbian universe, so of course it would commonly fail the Bechdel test.

Another reason though is that the results are most significant in aggregate. In certain specific cases, disproportionality may be quite justified; you don't have women wading ashore to fight on Iwo Jima any more than you'd have men in a nunnery. In many individual cases, though, one has to wonder why the disproportionality. Star Trek in particular has no excuse, and the under-representation of women can really only be understood in the context of aggregates of the period that reflect the culture and time in which it was made.

Well remember there is a selection bias at work here. We are discussing dramatic presentations. What is it, exactly, that two women commonly talk about with each other, not involving or referring to a man, that the typical television audience would be interested in watching a T.V. show about?

 

[T'Girl]

Compare with real life. How often, when any two women are having a conversation with each other, is it NOT about a man

Realistically? The majority of the time.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

Compare with real life. How often, when any two women are having a conversation with each other, is it NOT about a man

Realistically? The majority of the time.

OK, but how often do those conversations warrant being part of the plot of a TV show or movie, that would appeal to a mass audience?

Have you ever heard the term chick flick? Which gender is it that creates the demand for chick flicks or T.V. shows where the plot revolves around "relationships"? It's women. And if it's a heterosexual relationship then obviously the women will be talking about a man.

What is the Twilight Saga all about?

50 Shades of Gray?

Can you name one major movie aimed at a female audience that isn't relationship-themed?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But is it, really, all that trivial to pass?

Yes.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

OK, but how often do those conversations warrant being part of the plot of a TV show or movie, that would appeal to a mass audience?

Let's use Voyager as the example since it's easy and you already brought it up. A conversation between Janeway and 7 of 9 about a subspace anomaly passes the test. Do you find that to be implausible? Or a conversation about going back to Earth. It has to be about anything other than a man, it doesn't have to be about women or feminine hygiene or anything like that.

 

[1001001]

The Bechdel test was invented by a radical lesbian cartoonist. I think it can be properly extended to test Star Trek-universe episodes by asking how many depict lesbian loves scenes, or at least two women open mouth kissing.

I completely agree that any Star Trek episode that fails to show at least one scene of two women engaged in open mouth kissing represents a failure of story-telling potential and there is a huge room for improvement here.

Seriously?

To take these points a bit further, the bar for passing the Bechdel Test is incredibly minimal, and I believe intentionally so, in order to emphasize just how many works fail to pass even so minimal a test.

But is it, really, all that trivial to pass?

Compare with real life. How often, when any two women are having a conversation with each other, is it NOT about a man; and if not about a man, is said conversation worthy of being included in a dramatic portrayal?

Implicit in the Bechdel test is NOT just that it be a conversation between two woman about something other than a man; it must ALSO be something that is INTERESTING enough to put up on the screen as part of the narrative.

No one wants to hear Janeway and 7 gossiping with each other about what a little bitch Bilana Torres is, do they?

Does anyone want to hear Troi and Crusher's conversation about whether to use tampons or pads?

Of course not.

One reason that I think it's too easy to overinterpret results of the test is because the test itself represents an almost sarcastic understatement of the problem of disproportionality.

I think it's more a commentary on how insignificant and uninteresting most adult female interactions are, and also a commentary on how most females' lives revolve around the men in their lives.

Now obviously if the stories were about lesbians that wouldn't be the case. But the Star Trek universe isn't a lesbian universe, so of course it would commonly fail the Bechdel test.

Another reason though is that the results are most significant in aggregate. In certain specific cases, disproportionality may be quite justified; you don't have women wading ashore to fight on Iwo Jima any more than you'd have men in a nunnery. In many individual cases, though, one has to wonder why the disproportionality. Star Trek in particular has no excuse, and the under-representation of women can really only be understood in the context of aggregates of the period that reflect the culture and time in which it was made.

Well remember there is a selection bias at work here. We are discussing dramatic presentations. What is it, exactly, that two women commonly talk about with each other, not involving or referring to a man, that the typical television audience would be interested in watching a T.V. show about?

I'm not sure if you're just a straight-up troll, or incredibly ignorant and vulgar. In either case, you attempt to degrade women in the most condescending and sexist way possible, and succeed only in revealing your own superficiality and mean spiritedness.

Infraction for trolling (for the comments in bold).

 

[{ Emilia }]

Compare with real life. How often, when any two women are having a conversation with each other, is it NOT about a man; and if not about a man, is said conversation worthy of being included in a dramatic portrayal?

Just about as often as it is to have two men talking about something other than women? I guess?
I think I don't really get your point (if there is one).
If having two men talking about a casino heist, quantum physics or some random mystery is worthy of being included of dramatic portrayal, then why shouldn't it be the case when it's two women?

I think it's more a commentary on how insignificant and uninteresting most adult female interactions are, and also a commentary on how most females' lives revolve around the men in their lives.

Well, then it's obviously a rather stupid commentary, isn't it? Considering it's completely nonsensical.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Looking at the list (to steer the topic more positively), I was surprised at how often Troi came up. Troi and Crusher or Troi and Guest Star may have been the most common combinations for The Next Generation (contrast to DS9 where Kira and Dax seemed to pop up the most). While her character as a whole may have been more superfluous to the plot that I would have liked, she certainly was a lot more involved in a story than I've given her credit in the past.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I seriously want NBC to produce a procedural staring Hargitay and Graham who roam the streets of Las Vegas solving white collar crime with string theory.

 

[mos6507]

The test wasn't designed to account for male gaze.

It also doesn't seem to correlate with overall story/entertainment quality, considering that TOS scored the lowest and yet is the best of all Trek shows. Political-correctness for its own sake doesn't amount to much.

Just about as often as it is to have two men talking about something other than women? I guess?

Not only that, but it assumes that all romantic plots are superfluous/sexist. That hardly seems fair. A lot of what women want the most is romance, from Pride and Prejudice to Outlander. It's more compelling drama than dumb dialogue talking about fixing inertial dampeners.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

It also doesn't seem to correlate with overall story/entertainment quality, considering that TOS scored the lowest and yet is the best of all Trek shows. Political-correctness for its own sake doesn't amount to much.

Conflating objective (Bechdel Test) with subjective ("TOS ... is the best of all Trek shows") is not at all constructive.

Fact remains, the Bechdel Test's objectivity makes it an effective lens through which to view gender bias in entertainment - which will, no doubt, benefit from more inclusive storytelling as a result of the awareness raised by the test.

 

[Tosk]

Not only that, but it assumes that all romantic plots are superfluous/sexist.

The test assumes nothing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Just about as often as it is to have two men talking about something other than women? I guess?

Not only that, but it assumes that all romantic plots are superfluous/sexist.

No.

Let's actually address what { Emilia } said.

Imagine a world in which most films fail the reverse Bechdel test:

1. It has to have at least two men in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a woman.​

Would you consider the majority of films to be worth watching? What sort of world would it be if, worse than mere exclusion, in most films that even bother to have guys talking to each other, the guys only talk about women.

Bor-ing, right?

The Bechdel test has nothing to do with whether romantic plots are superfluous or sexist.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Political-correctness for its own sake doesn't amount to much.

Not having an awfully skewed representation of women is not political correctness. It's a very good idea. More interesting, more fun, less boring, more realistic and more respectful. And certainly less embarrassing when you look at the results of a trivial test like this one. Come on, even the openly sexist suggestions upthread would pass it. If you can't pass that, you're not even trying. So you're correct it doesn't amount to much, it amounts to the absolute minimum that you can ask for.

There's nothing wrong with trying as much for its own sake, it's a no-brainer.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

While I like the original series, it's clearly sexist on its own merits with or without the Bechdel test. I'd argue it's one of its clearly weaker points, mostly owing to the absence of meaningful female characters (who therefore only interact with male characters).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

While I like the original series, it's clearly sexist on its own merits with or without the Bechdel test. I'd argue it's one of its clearly weaker points, mostly owing to the absence of meaningful female characters (who therefore only interact with male characters).

Yes. I love TOS, truly love it, but the sexism in it is one of its biggest and most inexcusable shortcomings.