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Star Trek 4 Hits A Snag

Uhura-Spock-Kirk = Rico-Carmen-Lt Zander I wonder if this was the inspiration for Trek09.

Actually, I think their idea was to have their own luke/leia/han or harry/hermione/ron dynamic. It was no triangle, just the hero having a male and female friend (for Kirk to have a female best friend is as new as Spock - nerdy guys are hot too - having a girlfriend) who have a romantic relationship with each other. It makes for a funnier and more inclusive set of interpersonal dynamics that isn't, for once, only about the bros like tos was.. and I love it for this reason too.

Kirk seems to even support their relationship or looks concerned when it seems they have issues. In both stid and beyond you have little moments hinting this aspect such as when Spock is in the volcano and they beam him aboard, and Uhura asks Kirk if he's ok from her station because only Kirk and Mccoy could join Spock to the transport pad. And of course in beyond Spock only needs to remind Kirk that Uhura is at the base too to convince his captain to let him participate to the rescue mission. Notice that even McCoy, who would be the least one to let injured Spock do that, understands.

I would've loved it if they explored their trio a bit more, but of course some trek fans must perceive everything that isn't about the original trio and white dudes status quo as a threat to the latter, and beyond frankly went backwards when it comes to JJ's more contemporary dynamic with Uhura. It's back to the guys and their feelings only.
This is one of those hints that trek is stuck in the past and at one point, the audience inevitably feels like as much as the writers try to put new things, they are too scared to truly invest more into them and do something big, thus advance the characters as their own version, rather than a tos homage forever. You arent truly allowed to know these characters better, in way. It's frustrating.

If they want to copy marvel, they better start with the ABC when it comes to ensembles, dynamics, and the hability to develop several at once without making things mutually exclusive.


Anyway, jj&co subverted different tropes in the first movie and they deserve kudos for that. Kirk doesn't get the girl being one, the nerdy guy being the love interest and not reduced to hero's sidekick only is another. The aspect that the romantic subplot is given to the two characters who were less a given in that sense (in her case because racism would prevent her to ever get a romance in the 60s) - in spite making the most sense. The fact Uhura truly wasn't interested about Kirk not even after he has his hero moment and earns her respect as captain and friend. The fact she already is with someone who is his opposite.

And of course, the playing with expectations and prejudice, if you will, when it comes to the more introvert, nerdy character like Spock who is assumed being unfeeling and 'bad boyfriend' material just because he doesn't fit with Hollywood's idea of a male romantic hero.
Maybe to some it's nothing, but to see someone who is more introvert about their feelings, or doesn't express them like others do, being portrayed as someone who is able to love and get loved for who he is, well, that's important for me. I had always been annoyed by fandoms' lame habit to headcanon aliens and introverts as asexual people or those who are a failure in relationships (aside from the fact that even if Spock were asexual- which is contradicted by canon anyway - , it doesn't mean he'd be incapable of falling in love, make a relationship work, and have sexual agency. Some people don't seem to understand the different layers of what asexuality really is )
The issues between him and Uhura are more about the aftermath of the Vulcan diaspora than Spock being 'weird'. In no point the narrative makes it seems Kirk or Mccoy or the other humans would be better than Spock as love interests. Uhura seems to accept him for who he is, all while still calling him out on his sh*t when he is being an ass .. because this, too, is a way to not 'other' him and thus treat him as a person instead. Respecting his culture doesn't mean accept everything he does (especially negative things) and worship him; vulcans must have different personalities too and have their own uniqueness as beings just like the humans.
In general, it makes more sense for trek to represent humans as aliens too because, well, in the fictional reality of trek they are.
 
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Spock's role in Generations would have been little more than a cameo where as in ST he was one of the main characters, just not seen on screen all that much and his actual cameo in STID marks the end of Leonard Nimoy's Spock in the franchise! So I wouldn't moan about it!
JB
 
Spock's role in Generations would have been little more than a cameo where as in ST he was one of the main characters, just not seen on screen all that much and his actual cameo in STID marks the end of Leonard Nimoy's Spock in the franchise! So I wouldn't moan about it!
JB

Nah. They still feel like bullshit fan service I could do without. And just because STID ended up being his final appearance before death doesn't really justify its existence for me. I'd still delete it, and its absence wouldn't impact the film negatively. In fact, the idea that nuSpock accomplishes something without having a brief chat with Prime Spock is what I'd call an improvement!

In the end, nothing beats Nimoy's exit like "go to hell". He should have said that to Bad Robot.
 
Well I've seen STID nearly once and by that I mean I fell asleep before the end and have never gone back to it!
JB
 
Nah. They still feel like bullshit fan service I could do without. And just because STID ended up being his final appearance before death doesn't really justify its existence for me. I'd still delete it, and its absence wouldn't impact the film negatively. In fact, the idea that nuSpock accomplishes something without having a brief chat with Prime Spock is what I'd call an improvement!

In the end, nothing beats Nimoy's exit like "go to hell". He should have said that to Bad Robot.
I respect Nimoy's willingness to say yes to reprising the role. I do agree about the scene but I do not want Nimoy to say "Go to hell" regarding Bad Robot because then I wouldn't have ST 09 and Nimoy's excellent work.

But, I can see the point of view regarding the scene, because it definitely speaks to the whole problem of using Khan.
 
Even with his ST09 appearance one of his very first lines is an awkwardly placed direct quote from TWOK. Bad Robot just couldn't let that film go.
 
Even with his ST09 appearance one of his very first lines is an awkwardly placed direct quote from TWOK. Bad Robot just couldn't let that film go.
To be fair, fandom has not been able to let that film go. Khan is frequently at the top, if not #1, of Trek villains, and TWOK as the greatest Trek film ever!!!!!!

Again, for the 09 scene, a simple edit of Kirk going "Who are you and how do you know my name?" and then the "Bullshit" response by Kirk to Spock's claim would make the transition better. That film isn't without its rough spots and that is among them.
 
To be fair, fandom has not been able to let that film go. Khan is frequently at the top, if not #1, of Trek villains, and TWOK as the greatest Trek film ever!!!!!!

True, I wish NEMESIS had simply discouraged further KHAN references for future films, but it was not to be until arguably BEYOND.

Again, for the 09 scene, a simple edit of Kirk going "Who are you and how do you know my name?" and then the "Bullshit" response by Kirk to Spock's claim would make the transition better. That film isn't without its rough spots and that is among them.

Oh I agree with this, and there's plenty of rough spots and flimsy transitions/conclusions. Much of the exposition dialogue feels so rushed as if Abrams was TERRIFIED of boring audiences, so he wanted to get things quicker to the action beats.

Ahh, so you missed the part where Earth, a incredibly intellectual and technologically advanced society, did absolutely nothing while a giant starship flew out of space and crashed into a major city.

Maybe it's because Starfleet let it happen, because it was all orchestrated by [No. - M'] Marcus so he could then pin it on the Klingons and use that as a rallying cry to go to war against them for more dilithium. It was essentially an inside job, and Khan was just a puppet.

ORCI, YOU GENIUS!
 
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^ You're suggesting the crash was intentional? Hardly. Marcus was already DEAD by that point, you understand. Khan did that out of sheer bloodlust and revenge.

Marcus' plan was to have the Enterprise destroyed at Qo'noS, then use the Vengeance in the ensuing war.
 
I’d say starfleet totally covered up the Khan/Marcus angle of the crash, probably made it into a tragic tale of an out of control prototype ship and the last valiant efforts of Marcus to save it.
 
remember seeing SST back in xmas 97 and aside thinking it was awesome with the best Space FX id ever seen, that Johnny Rico was alot like how i imagined young Kirk to have been in his Academy days and if they ever did a star trek remake then the Rico guy wouldve been great as a young Kirk (Pine dosnt look that different to Casper Van Dien anyway)

and yeh there were alot of similarities to SST that you already mentioned there - plus the Warp effect was pretty similar too (seeing the back of the characters heads experience the warp bending effect - that was sot of inspired by Star Wars) and the warp speed breach crew being sucked out in STiD was similar to the scene in SST

Very similar.


Some of these scenes are so much alike it's hard to believe they are coincidences.

--Rico makes a serious mistake during a live fire exercise. He is questioned by his superiors at a hearing. He is then disciplined. He is put on suspension and confined to quarters. He resigns afterward.

---Kirk gets caught cheating during a live Kobayashi Maru exercise. He is questioned at a public hearing by his superiors and put on academic suspension.

--Right after Rico quits the service, the "Bugs" attack earth, massive casualties. The enlistees are activated and are prepared to be sent to the front lines.

---During the hearing, Nero attacks Vulcan. The admiral announces the cadets are being immediately activated and posted to ships.

---Rico wants to join in, but he can't, so he goes to a sympathetic NCO (who rips up his resignation) and gets back in the service.

---Kirk wants to join in, but can't, so he gets help from a sympathetic cadet (McCoy) who helps him sneak aboard the Enterprise..

Starfleet command even looks like the Service in Starship Troopers
 
^ You're suggesting the crash was intentional? Hardly. Marcus was already DEAD by that point, you understand. Khan did that out of sheer bloodlust and revenge.

Marcus' plan was to have the Enterprise destroyed at Qo'noS, then use the Vengeance in the ensuing war.

I was originally suggesting a joke at the expense of Orci's truther predilection. Truthfully I can't take much of the plot seriously. This is a film where Scotty breaks into a Section 31 hangar bay in the most obvious manner with NO ONE monitoring in any capacity. Between that and how we see the Klingons function, it's a wonder how any of these organizations function.
 
Was it a section 31 hangar? Didn't they just say that the location in London was Section 31 and that it was just a weapons manufacture?
 
I don't think it's clarified, that's just the impression the film gave me. Whether Section 31 or Starfleet or whatever it is, it's just silly how Scotty passes in with no one noticing. Must have been run by the same guy that had Scotty a point blank.
 
If we, who are into this, are confused on the convoluted plot, that's probably not good. I also still really don't get Shinzon's purposes in NEM.
 
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