It says more about Kirk than his instructors.
Star Trek 2009-11 years later
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It says they gave him a pass in his courses even though he generally acts like a child. I guess in this alternate universe, Starfleet has a "no-fail" policy and everyone gets a participation ribbon.
Oh, I think he passed the courses just fine. He just didn't bother to apply what he learned because it doesn't apply to him.
I'm not just talking about academics. I'm talking about the multiple assignments in his various classes that would have tested his ability to be both part of a group and be a leader when necessary.
My impression of him in the movies is that he was given a pass in that and put in none of the actual work.
PIKE: Your aptitude tests are off the charts, so what is it? You like being the only genius-level repeat offender in the midwest?
Speaking as someone who faked their way through multiple speeches, assignments, seminars and trainings because I thought I was either too smart or it didn't apply to me I can believe Kirk. My impression was he was smart enough to do the work but didn't care enough to apply it in actual practice. And fifty percent of the time I would ask more experienced professionals regarding some protocol or doctrine or practice in professional life and they would just roll their eyes and say it rarely applied. So, Kirk is entirely believable to me.
But, that doesn't mean that he was right or correct in doing what he did. But, that's the point of the movie.
Yup. Kirk was incredibly smart, but didn't want to do any more than was the bear necessity.
University. Different methods in different countries perhaps. I was trained for a month, did a 15 minute demo in front of a real class, then I was thrown into the deep end and made to sink or swim.
YMMV but I can only speak from personal experience. Have you never argued with your significant other and in the heat of the moment been quite unaware of how your behaviour may look to other people? I think it happens to us all at some time or another and we only regret or feel ashamed of our actions in retrospect.
I think about five years ago I would have agreed with this. The high octane element that exists within all the Kelvin movies can make it difficult to see the woods for the trees. Honestly though, I think ‘a mess of hammy actors (exception: Leonard Nimoy)’ pretty much describes TOS to the letter.
I do love TOS by the way.
Which country, may I ask? I'm in the province of Alberta, in Canada.
The practicum time increases each year during a 4-year program until the final year is basically no different from being a "real" teacher. I remember having a 4th-year student teacher during my own Grade 12 Social Studies class. Our own teacher told us that the student teacher was to be treated as a teacher, not a student, and any assignments or tests he gave would be official, as would the grades assigned. If memory serves, he taught us for about a third of the course (a little over a month; we were on the trimester system), and then he must have moved on to another placement. He was good enough at his job that I still remember his name, over 40 years later.
Never at work.
Sure, some of the actors did ham it up. Not all of them did, and of course it depended on whether or not the episode was supposed to be funny. I recall reading in David Gerrold's book about the making of "The Trouble With Tribbles" that he thought Shatner overdid it in some scenes.I think about five years ago I would have agreed with this. The high octane element that exists within all the Kelvin movies can make it difficult to see the woods for the trees. Honestly though, I think ‘a mess of hammy actors (exception: Leonard Nimoy)’ pretty much describes TOS to the letter.
I do love TOS by the way.
But the TOS episodes were not so frenetic that I couldn't follow what was happening. I wonder if there might be some medical reason why I can't tolerate jerkiness on the screen or as much in the way of computerized special effects that I used to. It's not just the nuTrek movies. There are certain scenes in Harry Potter where I have to shut my eyes or look away because it's too much.
I was okay in 1977 when I saw Star Wars in the theatre (as well as the other two movies in the original trilogy). I remember feeling dizzy a couple of times, but not seriously.
Now? Some people over in the SF/F forum are miffed at me for saying "no animated entries" in the current Doctor Who avatar contest. But the fact is that I'm the one who has to deal with them the most since I'm hosting the contest and it's hard to do that when I can't stand to look at them (the images are perfectly okay when they're not moving in the fast, jerky way that many animated avatars do).
So I doubt I'll ever be able to tolerate nuTrek - whether it's the awful acting, the dumb writing, or the CGI that I can't even look at without becoming disoriented.
i had been wondering the same about myself until I saw the Orville episode: identity part 2, which contains one of the best space battles I’ve ever seen, with literally hundreds of ships fighting, but represented on screen in a way I had no trouble at all following. After this I’m definitely of the opinion that it’s not us, it’s them: jerkiness might be “cool” nowadays but it really doesn’t help (helps masquerading half assed CGI such as the one in many Discovery and Picard shots, though!).
I was a teacher 30 years.
Had roughly a year's worth of ed classes, then 1/2 year of student teaching.
I was never really trained how to lead students in a classroom. Student teaching was good for trial and error, I suppose. Luckily I had good models and much of what we do in life is mimicry.
I was taught in my general methods course that when a kid was misbehaving, to ignore it and the behavior would go extinct. (Decent conditioning theory -- except when other students are reinforcing the behavior with laughter!)
When I asked my teaching-English-methods prof. what the standards were for an A essay versus a B or D, was told "You'll have to determine that for yourself."
Maybe the Academy just isn't that good at real life stuff.
Had roughly a year's worth of ed classes, then 1/2 year of student teaching.
I was never really trained how to lead students in a classroom. Student teaching was good for trial and error, I suppose. Luckily I had good models and much of what we do in life is mimicry.
I was taught in my general methods course that when a kid was misbehaving, to ignore it and the behavior would go extinct. (Decent conditioning theory -- except when other students are reinforcing the behavior with laughter!)
When I asked my teaching-English-methods prof. what the standards were for an A essay versus a B or D, was told "You'll have to determine that for yourself."
Maybe the Academy just isn't that good at real life stuff.
I have a degree in Education. During the pursuit of that degree, I received zero training in education. Later, as a grad student and a GTA, I had two months of intensive training preparing me to teach, but there was more administrative training than academic training. It was only after I finished school and went in to instructional design that I started getting training (formal and informal) in how people process information and learn.
That explains the difference. Things are a little less organised in southern Vietnam.
Do you work with your significant other in the same room for anything up to 12 hours a shift whilst dealing with life/death situations aboard a tin can in a vacuum?
It sound possibly neurological, like syneasthesia. I wouldn't have any clue really though. Might want to get it checked out though.
So, I was curious and decided to watch the battle. And, while I can follow it it lacks a tension to it and feels more like Star Wars or a video game than anything dangerous. It got very close from time to time, but it was rather undersold by the acting.
Not saying that Discovery gets it perfectly right but there has got to be a balance between the gentle sweeps and curves and average orchestration of Orville and the larger than life presentation of Discovery with multiple ships.
I still think this is one of the best space battles, for my viewing any way:
Too confused for my tastes, but I’ll grant it is better than most similar sequences on discovery. Still, after rewatching I barely have any idea of any of those ships look like and that lighting really looks really bad to my eye.
The worst is still the season 2 finale...I have a little story about that, actually...
Last year I was looking for good CGI artists interested in Star Trek to ask them to collaborate on our fan film, so I basically watched tons of Star Trek related CGI on YouTube. At a point I arrived at this video and my reaction was “this guy could be really good but the lighting is horrible and the camera movements even worse”. Then I realized I was actually watching a clip from the actual show.
The worst is still the season 2 finale...I have a little story about that, actually...
Last year I was looking for good CGI artists interested in Star Trek to ask them to collaborate on our fan film, so I basically watched tons of Star Trek related CGI on YouTube. At a point I arrived at this video and my reaction was “this guy could be really good but the lighting is horrible and the camera movements even worse”. Then I realized I was actually watching a clip from the actual show.
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Yeah I can sort of understand that. While I can follow the Season 2 finale battle just fine it certainly was not what I would prefer. As I said, I think there needs to be a balance between the two because there are good elements from each that I would use. Discovery's feel more impactful; they carry weight and there is a sense of danger to them. The Orville I can track along just fine with but feel like I'm playing a video game but without any stake in the outcome or a sense of danger.
My first-year teaching courses were Ed. Psych., Ed. Foundations, the practicum itself, and I think there was another... this was 40 years ago and I didn't finish the program, so I've forgotten some of it.
Fun fact: My Educational Psychology prof was some sort of cousin or uncle of Orson Scott Card. I found this out because this prof also taught sociology and I was stuck for a term paper topic. He knew I was into science fiction (found that out when it turns out that he thought the concept of IDIC was "chaotic"), so he asked me if I was going to the science fiction convention in Calgary that weekend. I said yes, and he said, "You know my ______ (nephew/cousin; I don't recall exactly) is going to be there: Orson Scott Card. Why don't you write your paper on science fiction?"
It hadn't even clicked. Orson Scott Card... my prof's name was Dr. Brigham Young Card. So I went to the convention with a clear conscience, didn't worry about the term paper, even though it was due the following Tuesday (this was Thanksgiving weekend, which is Friday-Monday in Canada). I wrote the paper on science fiction fandom, and by that time I was into the local and regional fandom to the point that the paper nearly wrote itself. This was back in the early '80s.
Not-so-fun-fact about Dr. Brigham Young Card:
He'd given us an exercise to do about how important a long list of things was in our daily lives. My religion score was so low it was in the negative numbers. This disturbed him greatly because nobody else's was even close and he didn't like that - this is a bible-belt region and he felt this was something that needed to be "fixed."
So he asked me to come to his office, whereupon he gave me a pitch that included offering me a copy of the Book of Mormon and also a stack of other books on Mormonism that I could read and "discuss" with him in later office visits.
This was around the time that Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms came along... too late for my public school practicum where the receiving teacher ordered me to participate in morning prayers, but right on time so I knew I could safely refuse Card's offer and not worry about my grades, if he felt offended. I never told him the real reason for refusing - I'm atheist and not even slightly amenable to proselytization. I did tell him truthfully that I was so busy with a full load of courses that I had no time for extra reading.
My friends were curious about that office visit and when I told them he'd tried proselytizing, they were shocked and said I should have reported him. I'd considered it... but figured no, he hadn't been obnoxious about it, he did seem genuinely concerned, and he was a few years past normal retirement age. I said I'd worry about it if my grades seemed to be out of step for no reason.
Later on, I was on the bus and found him there. I knew he never took the bus, but he said his car was being repaired and he was just going to pick it up. So we chatted on our cross-town trip and he asked some general questions about the city (he'd moved from Lethbridge to take the job at this college)... and out of the blue he asked if I knew where he could buy a copy of 2001: A Space Odyssey. He'd become interested in reading it for some reason I assumed had to either do with the metaphysical aspects of it, or maybe OSC had recommended it.
I told him that any bookstore should have it, but I could lend him my copy so he wouldn't need to bother searching around... so on the following Monday I let him borrow all my 2001-related books. My friends were aghast at the idea of spending part of a Saturday chatting with him on a bus, considering what he'd tried earlier with the Book of Mormon. But he never tried to proselytize me again, and he returned the books a couple of weeks later, said thank you, and I never did find out why he wanted to read them.
He'd given us an exercise to do about how important a long list of things was in our daily lives. My religion score was so low it was in the negative numbers. This disturbed him greatly because nobody else's was even close and he didn't like that - this is a bible-belt region and he felt this was something that needed to be "fixed."
So he asked me to come to his office, whereupon he gave me a pitch that included offering me a copy of the Book of Mormon and also a stack of other books on Mormonism that I could read and "discuss" with him in later office visits.
This was around the time that Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms came along... too late for my public school practicum where the receiving teacher ordered me to participate in morning prayers, but right on time so I knew I could safely refuse Card's offer and not worry about my grades, if he felt offended. I never told him the real reason for refusing - I'm atheist and not even slightly amenable to proselytization. I did tell him truthfully that I was so busy with a full load of courses that I had no time for extra reading.
My friends were curious about that office visit and when I told them he'd tried proselytizing, they were shocked and said I should have reported him. I'd considered it... but figured no, he hadn't been obnoxious about it, he did seem genuinely concerned, and he was a few years past normal retirement age. I said I'd worry about it if my grades seemed to be out of step for no reason.
Later on, I was on the bus and found him there. I knew he never took the bus, but he said his car was being repaired and he was just going to pick it up. So we chatted on our cross-town trip and he asked some general questions about the city (he'd moved from Lethbridge to take the job at this college)... and out of the blue he asked if I knew where he could buy a copy of 2001: A Space Odyssey. He'd become interested in reading it for some reason I assumed had to either do with the metaphysical aspects of it, or maybe OSC had recommended it.
I told him that any bookstore should have it, but I could lend him my copy so he wouldn't need to bother searching around... so on the following Monday I let him borrow all my 2001-related books. My friends were aghast at the idea of spending part of a Saturday chatting with him on a bus, considering what he'd tried earlier with the Book of Mormon. But he never tried to proselytize me again, and he returned the books a couple of weeks later, said thank you, and I never did find out why he wanted to read them.
It seems really odd that you'd have to come up with your own ideas for determining grades. I can't see that going over well in the K-12 grades. But in college/university? Yeah, some instructors are definitely harder than others. I once went from an A to a B just for two punctuation mistakes on the reference page of an English essay.
That's definitely different from the way it is here, then.
It looks like the Academy in the nuTrek movies was a hodge-podge of teaching styles (I can't imagine any version of Spock being a lax teacher). NuKirk just happened to get the ones that let him skate.
No, I have never been aboard a tin can in a vacuum. But you'd think Starfleet would have ways to test the students to see which of them could keep their minds focused in critical situations. That's part of normal astronaut training in RL, so why wouldn't it be in Starfleet?That explains the difference. Things are a little less organised in southern Vietnam.
Do you work with your significant other in the same room for anything up to 12 hours a shift whilst dealing with life/death situations aboard a tin can in a vacuum?
I can see it now: "I want to be tested because I have trouble watching action scenes in science fiction and fantasy movies."
The doctor would look at me and say, "So don't watch them."
And then I'd have to explain that just because I noticed these problems when trying to watch SF/F movies or play certain computer games (I get this information overload thing going on with the later versions of the Civilization computer game; I can't manage to play anything later than Civ II), it doesn't mean there might not be a problem.
I guess all the minutiae of designing ships for TV shows and movies pleases the people who pay attention to that sort of thing. I can tell a Federation ship from an alien ship, but the minutiae of the different ship classes (no matter the species that uses them) tend to escape me. It's too bad... all that work on the designers' part, and I never even notice it.
That's almost all of Hollywood work. A thousand little details that won't be noticed if the job is done right.
i have no idea how the starship ship looks (apart from the generic fact it has a saucer) and it goes even worse for the Klingon ships. The bird of prey design is actually pretty nice, but in fact when I stumbled upon it last summer I had no idea it was from discovery and I had seen it already. Because “seen” is a big word here.
Confront it to the Orville episode above, where you can make up basically anything from the various ships involved in the conflict...Not unlike most pre-abrams Star Trek, of course, but they never did a battle sequence this elaborate.
I used to work backstage in musical theatre, usually on the properties crew. I know about "a thousand little details"... the kind that sometimes the audience notices (and gives me a boost) and sometimes they completely overlook it.
When we did "Gypsy" and there was a scene with egg rolls, they came out of the microwave. That way, if the kids wanted to take a bite to do something during the scene, they could actually eat them, rather than pretending with something frozen or fake.
I still remember all those hours of making headdresses for the "Small House of Uncle Thomas" ballet in "The King and I" (wire, masking tape, spray paint, glue, shiny doodads... I'm allergic to spray paint, so I did the forms and somebody else decorated them).
When we did "Peter Pan" I had to make a cake that looked tempting but couldn't actually be eaten (kids in the cast... that cake wouldn't have lasted until intermission, never mind the actual scene it was to be used in). So I got some styrofoam cake rounds, some royal icing, dyed it green (since the line in the song goes "with icing laced with poison so it turns a tempting green"), and glued on some green maraschino cherries to make it look even more tempting (glued since the last thing I wanted was for one to fall off and roll across the stage).
Costume details... I worked as Lancelot's dresser on a production of "Camelot." I discovered that nobody else on the dressing crew knew what the various bits and pieces of armor were, and one person had no idea where they even went. Thank goodness for attending fighters' practices in the SCA. At least my actor never went out on stage with anything in the wrong place or missing. King Arthur's dresser sent him onstage without shoes one night.
I don't know if the audience noticed, but the costume mistress did. She wasn't happy.
I've never seen that show (Orville).
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