ST-TMP: your first time...

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Warped9, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Spock's character arc, starting with the Vulcan scene, is one of the best parts of the movie and arguably the element least in need of fixing. It works fine as is, so I can't imagine cutting any of it. Plus, that opening on Vulcan provides a bit of exotic visual splendor that makes the movie feel bigger and more epic and, well, more like "The Motion Picture" than just a bunch of expository dialogue later on. It works.

    Movies are not just about the plot. They're also about the tone and style and total sensory experience.
     
  2. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed. And well said.
     
  3. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    TOTALLY agree with the last sentence (most of the rest as well, though I'm not as forgiving of the costumes.)

    You must be among the very few who saw 70mm prints of TMP -- consensus seems to be that even if they were struck in 79, none of them reached theaters (at least domestically) until the film started getting reissued as a double bill.
     
  4. USS Mariner

    USS Mariner Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Taken straight out of my mind. I'd say mouth, but I've never told anyone this because they'd think thaat there's something wrong if those words are coming from the mouth of a 24 year old.



    I knew I was born 30 years too late.
     
  5. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Hey, since I'm turning 54 this year I'll happily trade you. You can have my recollection of seeing 2001 on a big screen at age 7-1/2 and I can have a heads-up on getting my blood sugar under control before it is way too late.
     
  6. USS Mariner

    USS Mariner Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've had experience treating many diabetic relatives, but I think I'll pass.
     
  7. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Spurred by this discussion I recently rewatched TMP-DE (my preferred version of the film). Looking at it now in this cut there is very little I would change in it. I can see a nip-and-tuck here and there as well as some spots that could have been fleshed out more. The sequence that could still be tightened a bit is the Vger fly over. But still little I would change outright. One has to remember this is film and not a television episode. It demands to be grander and be allowed the freedom to indulge to some extent, and TMP does that. Rewatching the film I again see echoes of "The Cage" and GR's initial concept for Star Trek, so in that respect it's incorrect for some to say it doesn't feel like Star Trek. No, it is very much Star Trek as it was conceived: an adult aproach to far future space adventure. People often dismiss TMP as essentially "The Changeling" padded out. While I can ackowledge some similarities to "The Changeling" to me it feels more like "The Immunity Syndrome." So TMP is just like TOS in using space adventure as a vehicle aiming for something more.

    Another interesting thing about TMP is that some years ago I lent my copy to a coworker who is not a devout Trek fan, but enjoys trying different kinds of film. His verdict was that he felt it was quite acceptable Star Trek as well as a respectable science fiction film. He wasn't being nearly as demanding as I could be and he was quite happy with it.

    TWOK evokes the characterizations of TOS. The characters are immediately recognizable in their performances. In overall tone the film echoes episodes like "The Doomsday Machine." It is adventurous, action oriented and has some decent character moments. From that it isn't hard to see why it's popular: it pushes all the right buttons. And given that those elements are more immediately accessible than something idea driven it's easy to understand why many see it as more recognizably Star Trek---because it feels that way. But once you get beyond what it feels like on a visceral level and start looking at it more analytically then TWOK is more akin to things like "Wink Of An Eye" or "The Mark Of Gideon"---efforts that definitely needed more rewriting and more thought. I can't think of a creative effort that's truly perfect, but if the flaws jar me out of being immersed in what's happening onscreen then I simply cannot call it good. That's why I rate TWOK as fair. It has the makings of something good, but it makes too many mistakes. It is much like episodes in TOS' third season. And candidly I think the remaining Trek films fall into the same category in varying degrees---it's recognizable, but only passably.

    Star Trek wouldn't start to feel like itself again until TNG, and even then it would be only here and there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  8. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I was only three when TMP was released, but something you said struck me:

    Audiences today seem so passive. Even when I was a kid in the 80s, I remember people reacting emotionally to the movies. Now, whenever I go see a film, I notice the people in the audience just sit there, absorbing whatever images come at them. No one cheers, no one smiles, no one talks. It makes for a dull movie-going experience when the audience is that dull.

    There are exceptions, to be sure. When I saw ID, when Old Spock appeared on the view screen, I heard a woman behind me whisper, "Yay!" By and large, though, going to the cinema just feels like a different experience to me.
     
  9. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    That's not the experience I have had at the theatre at all.
     
  10. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Which experience do you mean? An active fun audience or a passive dull audience?
     
  11. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    My first time seeing TMP was when I was 6 years old catching an airing on USA Network, which ran back to back with TFF for some odd reason (they were the only two I remember that the network aired regularly, as if they only could get the subpar TOS films). I enjoyed it back then, like I pretty much enjoyed anything that was sci-fi because of having just seen STAR WARS on the same network. Can't really elaborate any further on that, but it was my first real exposure to Trek (aside from seeing the opening sequence of TNG at the age of four and thinking the Enterprise was supposed to be some kind of monster).

    How do I feel about it today? I love the score and I really appreciate how this film treats space as it is rather than just a mere background like a lot of sci-fi treats it. Beyond that, I find it utterly dull to watch. Too thin of a story, not very good cinematography, unnecessary stretches of special effect sequences as if watching characters react to a viewscreen is compelling cinema (reminds me of that RiffTrax bit on TFF where the shuttle arrives on the "God" Planet, "if only half of sci-fi was just people looking at things"). In a way I do admire that it at least tries to be hard sci-fi in a way no film ever dares to do these days, but it strays so far into it that it feels cold and artificial at the end. The most human moment was when Kirk and Spock hold hands in the sick bay, but before that we'd be lucky to have Scotty pat Kirk on the shoulder. I'd love it if there was more passion to this film. The most passion it probably has is in the f/x work because those long stretches tell me "look at my work! I made this out of love! This is my life", and yeah, Trumbull deserves all the credit, but I'm not gonna leave it to him to make me feel anything for this film aside from thinking "great job, can we get onto the fucking story?"

    Of course, that's my opinion.
     
  12. Pondwater

    Pondwater Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When TMP premiered I wasn't a thought or a twinkle. I first saw it on HBO or VHS sometime in the late 80's. It's the one ST film I have never seen from beginning to end in one sitting. I've always fallen asleep and end up starting back from where I dozed off.
     
  13. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah I think I'd agree on this point, if not your others. But it's different strokes for different folks. The scene with Kirk and Spock in TMP stirs up about the same emotion as Grace Lee Whitney's cameo in STIII i.e. the way she looked at the Enterprise limping home. It reminds me fondly of what TOS was about. I would have liked more human moments like that beyond Kirk's boner when he sees the ship again.

    I think one or two character moments between the supporting cast, and a landing party involving more than just the BiG3, Decker & Ilia, exploring some of V'Ger would have spiced up TMP enough for me.
     
  14. MakeshiftPython

    MakeshiftPython Commodore Commodore

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    You know, I almost completely forgot about the Decker/Ilia subplot. Despite bad acting and zero chemistry between the two, Goldsmith is doing so much lifting to make you feel anything for those two characters with that love theme. I used to listen to the soundtrack and imagine it was for a better film, kind of like how I listened to John Williams' score for THE PHANTOM MENACE.
     
  15. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    Is it that you're seeing the films a week or two after they release? Because I remember very loud & active audiences, but only on opening day/weekend. Then again, I don't think I've seen a movie opening weekend in this century, except maybe SERENITY. And in that time, I'd say the audiences have been amazingly silent.

    Whereas opening night for CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, there were so many separate spontaneous bursts of applause from the audience (the one where we see that Dreyfuss is suited up like the other folks in red jumpsuits practically blew the roof off of Cinema 150 in Santa Clara, which is really saying something because that was a huge & beautiful theater) that it almost seemed like an interactive experience.
     
  16. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Maybe it's just the people in my hometown who are dull. :)
     
  17. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Over the years I've experienced audiences of both leanings. Some express themselves and others just sit there.
     
  18. Procutus

    Procutus Admiral Admiral

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    I gotta say, that really sums up my own feelings as well. I have little to add, as most of the posts above have spoken about this movie so well. It's given me a lot of pleasure to relive how I felt about this movie by finding so many others who felt the same way.

    :techman:
     
  19. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Very much agreed.
     
  20. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    I saw it on VHS but I sometimes wonder if I heard it in utero. I was born in February of 1980...