Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!
That seems to be the main flaw with the UFP's Civilian Government's Upper Echelon who have never had any StarFleet Exploration under their belt and just assumed that everybody is peaceful.
Those who have been on the front line of Exploration have generally dealt with hostile forces and are a bit wiser to the danger out there.
That's why I think StarFleet / UFP shouldn't hide it's military aspect.
I think the experimental upgrades were a stop gap to implementing the new Excelsior Mk.2 and Constitution Mk.3 variants.
They were modified to see how far they can go with just updates and then compared to the brand new full redesign from the ground up. The New redesign from the ground up ended up winning out in the long run as we can start seeing them fill in the 25th century fleet ranks.
Sadly, this proved how short-sighted SF was to the Borg threat - which never really ceased being a threat (until, ostensibly, PIC S3). Q bent over backwards to warn them what was out there, and they really didn't listen. The Dominion was just another in a long line of bullies to rattle SF's cage. The Federation's high-minded goal of exploration is all well and good when the wolves aren't at the gate ("It's easy to be a Saint in Paradise" -Sisko), but they seemed to be in a quasi-denial state as to what threats existed out there. It's always been their biggest blind spot. They always assumed (naïvely, IMO) that, if a species is intelligent enough to master interstellar travel, they must obviously embrace diplomatic principles first before resulting to war.
I agree for the most part save that I think that it's naive. I don't think they are naive or ignorant. I think they are principled and believe that those principles should be put first above all others. That's what got them with the Klingons in Discovery (here it comes; their lie) and what happened with the Dominion. The Federation looks for peace, and shies away from military solutions, even in the face of obvious conflict. Which is why, to @KamenRiderBlade point, we see the upswing in military type coups or increased militarization, or a fear that the diminishing of a foreign power, i.e. the Klingon Empire, will result in military cut backs. Because the Federation is a peace first, second and third, so long as they can keep that presentation.
It's the old concepts of the velvet glove or Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum. I will concede that calling them naïve was a bit harsh on my part (and I never called the Federation/Starfleet ignorant), but I do agree with Kamen's suggestion of balance, the hardest of all things for someone or an organization to acquire. 99.999% fall into one category or another, pacifist or aggressor - rarely can one dance on the tip of that philosophical blade. The TOS Federation, I think, sat on that fence very well without being completely lame-ass non-committal, especially when it came to the Klingons or Romulans. They stuck to their principals (or, I should say, Kirk stuck to his principles) without appearing weak, foolish or excessively smug and preachy in front of his adversaries. "Gene's Vizzion" of a wholly unrealistic 24th Century Utopia kind of messed all that up and oftentimes painted the TNG writers' room into a corner when it came to telling interesting stories without "conflict".
The TOS Federation, I think, sat on that fence very well without being completely lame-ass non-committal, especially when it came to the Klingons or Romulans.
I tend to agree, though I think the balance is difficult to strike becomes often times situations are not so black and white, but required considering all the factors, military, diplomacy, peace and aggression, and all the stake holders involved. Yes, I agree with Kamen that they should be more up front of Starfleet and their role.
However, what is currently presented in Star Trek is that unrealistic point of view, and very black and white points of view on what different actions might mean, i.e. the Klingons asking for help means dismantling the fleet. Romulans engage in espionage with no ramifications.
I would hope for more balance but the precedence is not always there or applied consistently.
It's the old concepts of the velvet glove or Sī vīs pācem, parā bellum. I will concede that calling them naïve was a bit harsh on my part (and I never called the Federation/Starfleet ignorant), but I do agree with Kamen's suggestion of balance, the hardest of all things for someone or an organization to acquire. 99.999% fall into one category or another, pacifist or aggressor - rarely can one dance on the tip of that philosophical blade. The TOS Federation, I think, sat on that fence very well without being completely lame-ass non-committal, especially when it came to the Klingons or Romulans. They stuck to their principals (or, I should say, Kirk stuck to his principles) without appearing weak, foolish or excessively smug and preachy in front of his adversaries. "Gene's Vizzion" of a wholly unrealistic 24th Century Utopia kind of messed all that up and oftentimes painted the TNG writers' room into a corner when it came to telling interesting stories without "conflict".
She stays prepped, so she doesn't have to get prepped.
Her mentality is absolutely correct, that thinking can apply to anything in life.
The USA, despite however you may feel about our military, we need to "Stay Prepared for ANY SITUATION" so that we don't have to get ready.
WW1/2 was a wake up call to the US that you can't sit on your arse and expect to contribute to peace.
By the time the US entered the World Wars, we were near half way through or at the tail end of the wars.
We needed a significant preperation time to get ready for war.
Where as, everybody in the modern day has leaned on the United States preparedness a bit too much and haven't pulled their weight.
EU, I'm looking at you. You've hidden under our protective umbrella w/o contributing to your end of the defense shield.
The US needs to be focused on China and the threat they pose to causing WW3 by invading Taiwan and any other countries in the nearby area.
Never say Never with how Russia invaded Ukraine and turned a cold war into a hot war.
That's why the UFP needs to be more like the USA, more prepared, more heavily armed, more ready for everything.
While maintaining a Scientific Exploration footing at the same time.
By the time you want to get ready, you might be too late.
Just look at all the alternate timelines where the UFP / Earth failed because they were to peace minded and weren't ready to fight.
We got lucky with Kirk and the Romulan Bird of Prey incident.
He was the right man, right mentality for the job. W/O him, the Romulans would have waged war on the UFP and it would be very bloody as shown in ST:SNW S1 Finale.
It's better to stay ready than to be lulled by peace and try to get ready. By that time, it might be too late and we could lose everything we've worked so hard to build for.
Doesn't mean we don't try for diplomacy first, but we have to be ready to drop down and fight at a moments notice should the worst case scenario happen.
Doesn't mean we don't try for diplomacy first, but we have to be ready to drop down and fight at a moments notice should the worst case scenario happen.
I think what would be necessary to shift the mentality that the "Always ready" stance is not a militaristic stance. The black and white view that "diplomacy first" means diminishing military roles, which is not accurate but stounds very nice. But, the military lacks the warm fuzzy feel good that typically come with a diplomatic, humanitarian or peacekeeping role. But, as you note, it takes time to prepare and to respond, which we often times see with Starfleet is that they are scrambling to react, leading to admirals or leaders taking matters into their own hands.
I think what would be necessary to shift the mentality that the "Always ready" stance is not a militaristic stance. The black and white view that "diplomacy first" means diminishing military roles, which is not accurate but stounds very nice. But, the military lacks the warm fuzzy feel good that typically come with a diplomatic, humanitarian or peacekeeping role. But, as you note, it takes time to prepare and to respond, which we often times see with Starfleet is that they are scrambling to react, leading to admirals or leaders taking matters into their own hands.
But it isn't just practical balance but the actual philosophical drive that we see the Federation and Starfleet wrestle with. They are as much at war with themselves at times as they are with external forces.
But it isn't just practical balance but the actual philosophical drive that we see the Federation and Starfleet wrestle with. They are as much at war with themselves at times as they are with external forces.
Which is great and all, and I believe in balance though not Yin/Yang in that philosophical sense.
However, if we are working in Star Trek then we have to go with what is presented on screen. How do we apply a balance in philosophy while considering that Starfleet and the Federation often times do not present themselves as balanced, emphasizing diplomacy, while deemphasizing military?
However, if we are working in Star Trek then we have to go with what is presented on screen. How do we apply a balance in philosophy while considering that Starfleet and the Federation often times do not present themselves as balanced, emphasizing diplomacy, while deemphasizing military?
This is how to approach a Starfleet and Federation that, on principle, emphasizes one. You don't just say, "Oh, why not both?" and expect behavior to change. These are about values and principles held by the Federation.
This is how to approach a Starfleet and Federation that, on principle, emphasizes one. You don't just say, "Oh, why not both?" and expect behavior to change. These are about values and principles held by the Federation.
I think the experimental upgrades were a stop gap to implementing the new Excelsior Mk.2 and Constitution Mk.3 variants.
They were modified to see how far they can go with just updates and then compared to the brand new full redesign from the ground up. The New redesign from the ground up ended up winning out in the long run as we can start seeing them fill in the 25th century fleet ranks.
Pretty much this.
The upgrades were a measure to bring the ageing ships up to speed in terms of tactical ability and Warp power with modern ships (which was necessitated by the looming Dominion War).. but otherwise, the upgrades in question were likely done on ships that were initially constructed a long time ago (in the very late 23rd century and possibly very early 24th century most likely).
But as we already saw in TNG, the Miranda class ships had LCARS computer systems... it suggested that SF was already giving these starships needed upgrades to stay current and relevant in their areas, its just that at the time they probably weren't pushed as far ahead as they could have been (likely because there was no need to do so at the time)... then the Borg and Dominion were introduced, and threat of the war became possible - so this was what gave SF the needed push to further upgrade those ships tactical capabilities beyond where they already were.
Remember that the Defiant was a resulting starship and technologies developed in the wake of the Borg attack. The impending Dominion threat merely pushed SF to integrate those anti-Borg technologies into all ships throughout the fleet, not just what was supposed to be 'the new battle fleet'.
As such, I am also of the opinion that SF would have taken those upgraded ships, and used them as base raw material to construct the Mk 2 versions. Why waste tritanium, duranium and other materials when the existing starships can just as easily be taken and harvest them as raw materials and then rebuild them into Mk 2's? It actually saves you energy and matter when making them as you don't have to source or ship those materials at all... just use replicators to decompose them into base elements, and recombine them into modern bits in a sort of prefab matter and assemble them together into a whole starship - that way the old ship becomes brand new (and SF can even turn one class of ship into another).
As such, I am also of the opinion that SF would have taken those upgraded ships, and used them as base raw material to construct the Mk 2 versions. Why waste tritanium, duranium and other materials when the existing starships can just as easily be taken and harvest them as raw materials and then rebuild them into Mk 2's? It actually saves you energy and matter when making them as you don't have to source or ship those materials at all... just use replicators to decompose them into base elements, and recombine them into modern bits in a sort of prefab matter and assemble them together into a whole starship - that way the old ship becomes brand new (and SF can even turn one class of ship into another).
That's assuming that StarFleet didn't move onto new Metal Alloys for their StarShip by the 25th century and sell off the hulls of existing StarFleet ships to Private UFP Entities.
Remember, back in the day after WW2, old Air Frames were sold / given to pilots after the war.
The same can probably be said to Ex-StarFleet officers who needed to start up a business and needed a StarShip.
StarFleet could probably gut the hull of existing StarFleet tech and leave the hulk for civilian upgrades.
That's assuming that StarFleet didn't move onto new Metal Alloys for their StarShip by the 25th century and sell off the hulls of existing StarFleet ships to Private UFP Entities.
Remember, back in the day after WW2, old Air Frames were sold / given to pilots after the war.
The same can probably be said to Ex-StarFleet officers who needed to start up a business and needed a StarShip.
StarFleet could probably gut the hull of existing StarFleet tech and leave the hulk for civilian upgrades.
Remember that in Disco S3, the Earth starship captain identified Disco's hull mettalurgy being from 23rd to 25th century construction.
Implying that Tritanium and Duranium were still used in the 25th century (assuming of course Disco's 32nd century is not an alternate timeline). In which case, late/very late 25th century or early 26th century is probably when SF moved away from those materials of choise and started using more advanced alloys like Neutronium, etc.
Also, even if SF moved onto new alloys, the old alloys could still be decomposed into base elements and used as raw material to construct NEW alloys.
There would be no real need to discard tritanium and duranium starships... just use them as building blocks for something new.
But as we saw in Disco 32nd century, some 23rd century ships ended up in the scrapyard for the Emerald Chain businesses.
Once you break matter down into base elements or energy, you can reform it into whatever you want after all (note that more advanced composites may require insertion of more raw material to compensate for the differential in mass or capability - but then again, it might not as new materials can be made to be thinner, lighter, more flexible, durable etc. so you could potentially end up making MORE of the NEW composites using the old composites - your mileage may vary depending on the efficiency and capability of the new composite and how THICK SF makes it.
I suppose a grand MAJORITY of those old ships would be used for exactly that (building blocks for new starships - which after the said process would basically come out as brand new anyway), whereas a smaller portion of those older ships would be GIVEN to private individuals of UFP - no money, no selling after all).
But, I would imagine that private individuals would be able to get something more 'modern'. Potentially a shuttlecraft or a runabout class.
If they needed something larger, then its possible SF could provide an older starship with not so modern hw for them to use - possibly about 20-30 years old (as I remember in TNG that Riker mentioned when the Romulans needed a replacement computer core that he said they could provide a 20-30 year old piece of hw which wouldn't be current - it would do the job, but wouldn't impact on security).
Remember that in Disco S3, the Earth starship captain identified Disco's hull mettalurgy being from 23rd to 25th century construction.
Implying that Tritanium and Duranium were still used in the 25th century (assuming of course Disco's 32nd century is not an alternate timeline). In which case, late/very late 25th century or early 26th century is probably when SF moved away from those materials of choise and started using more advanced alloys like Neutronium, etc.
Neutronium probably can't be used by itself, given it's inherent properties; it would probably need to be alloyed to even work.
Also, even if SF moved onto new alloys, the old alloys could still be decomposed into base elements and used as raw material to construct NEW alloys.
There would be no real need to discard tritanium and duranium starships... just use them as building blocks for something new.
But as we saw in Disco 32nd century, some 23rd century ships ended up in the scrapyard for the Emerald Chain businesses.
The energy costs for breaking up heavy metals is high, and there are plenty of hulls of StarShips that can be retro-fit for civilian use. Imagine what a Privatized StarFleet like entities could do for civilians.
People who aren't bound by the same Government Rules/Regulations.
Once you break matter down into base elements or energy, you can reform it into whatever you want after all (note that more advanced composites may require insertion of more raw material to compensate for the differential in mass or capability - but then again, it might not as new materials can be made to be thinner, lighter, more flexible, durable etc. so you could potentially end up making MORE of the NEW composites using the old composites - your mileage may vary depending on the efficiency and capability of the new composite and how THICK SF makes it.
But not all elements are worth breaking down or even easy to break down.
The energy cost might not be worth it. Similar to how the Refit Enterprise was a one-off experiment.
But the energy cost might not be worth refitting a hull from scratch vs a fresh build.
At that point, civilian shops could retro-fit a existing StarFleet hull into a new ship for Private Civilian Contracting Entities.
Imagine all the unique ships and classic 22nd/23rd/24th century hulls retro-fit for private Civilian StarFleet like entities.
They use proprietary or open source software and hardware.
Their own private company logos and colors.
All still working within the UFP government.
IRL has mercenaries with their own small airforce / navy.
IMO, it's fairly realistic to see hundreds if not thousands of small companies running their own businesses once they exit StarFleet.
Just look at Rios, once he got out, he found his own ship in the "La Serena" and ran his own business.
Same with Booker.
Imagine what you could do if you retrofitted the hull of a ship you wanted and hired your own crew.
I suppose a grand MAJORITY of those old ships would be used for exactly that (building blocks for new starships - which after the said process would basically come out as brand new anyway), whereas a smaller portion of those older ships would be GIVEN to private individuals of UFP - no money, no selling after all).
I'd argue there is some form of money or compensation exists. StarFleet Credits do exist for trading in between Nation States. Who's to say that Credits don't exist. I know the money argument is old and can go either way. But that's a discussion for another time.
But let's say they take the hull of old StarFleet vessels and retro-fit it, imagine what you could do.
But, I would imagine that private individuals would be able to get something more 'modern'. Potentially a shuttlecraft or a runabout class.
If they needed something larger, then its possible SF could provide an older starship with not so modern hw for them to use - possibly about 20-30 years old (as I remember in TNG that Riker mentioned when the Romulans needed a replacement computer core that he said they could provide a 20-30 year old piece of hw which wouldn't be current - it would do the job, but wouldn't impact on security).
I'd imagine that computer hardware for civilians would be a bit different from some of the StarFleet required tech.
Some of it proprietary via hardware and/or software.
Civilians would probably have open sourced equivalents that worked nearly as well or have some advanced features that StarFleet wouldn't have.
SF did use Neutronium fibers in hull construction of their 31st century vessels... suggesting that the hulls are using composites which implement Neutronium as a reinforcing element.
And besides, SF already had exposure to Neutronium in large quantities (specifically from the Planet Killer which is made of the stuff - I still maintain SF should have as a result of that already have Neutronium hulls by the late 24th century.
First decade or two after encountering that thing would have probably been enough so that SF sensors are first able able to scan the Neutronium thoroughly, the next decade or two would have been enough to start developing methods capable of affecting it (weapons, etc.), and another 10 to 20 odd years should have been more than enoguh for SF to start manufacturing its own in large enough quantities - heck, they could also use the Planet Killer itself to remove large swaths of samples from it and use those in manufacturing composites which use Neutronium fibers.
The energy costs for breaking up heavy metals is high, and there are plenty of hulls of StarShips that can be retro-fit for civilian use. Imagine what a Privatized StarFleet like entities could do for civilians.
People who aren't bound by the same Government Rules/Regulations.
But not all elements are worth breaking down or even easy to break down.
The energy cost might not be worth it. Similar to how the Refit Enterprise was a one-off experiment.
But the energy cost might not be worth refitting a hull from scratch vs a fresh build.
I don't agree this would be the case. Otherwise, SF wouldn't bother recyling anything in their replicators after the stuff was already made.
Worst case scenario (the way technology was depicted to work) would be that once you decompose older matter into base elements or energy, you end up with a bit of a loss (in the case of a meal, once you ate the meal, you recycle the leftovers along with the plate, cutlery, etc.)... so there is a loss yes, but ultimately, since you are working with a largely intact (or even damaged) starship, you end up with a large amount of base elements which can be used for construction of new starships and new alloys. You may need to ADD a bit of matter to compensate, but SF probably wouldn't make starship hulls from a composite that cannot be recycled effectively.
At that point, civilian shops could retro-fit a existing StarFleet hull into a new ship for Private Civilian Contracting Entities.
Imagine all the unique ships and classic 22nd/23rd/24th century hulls retro-fit for private Civilian StarFleet like entities.
They use proprietary or open source software and hardware.
Their own private company logos and colors.
All still working within the UFP government.
I don't disagree that civilians would retrofit an existing SF hull into something of their own making, but its also possible that civilians won't be using outdated ships for that matter. And I wouldn't be surprised if SF allowed the use of its shipyards for civilian purposes... using similar/same design philosophies and approaches - the only difference is that main priority would go to SF, but given the vastness of UFP, there would be more than enough for civilian needs (and in UFP, most civilians who would venture into deep space seem to do so by joining SF in the first place).
IRL has mercenaries with their own small airforce / navy.
IMO, it's fairly realistic to see hundreds if not thousands of small companies running their own businesses once they exit StarFleet.
Just look at Rios, once he got out, he found his own ship in the "La Serena" and ran his own business.
Rios didn't seem like he was operating within UFP - in fact, it seemed like he was keeping clear of it and SF... so he likely acquired the La Sirena outside UFP space.
As for Booker... eh, he was born long after the Burn already happened and distabilized the Federation... plus as we saw, previous UFP space had to fall back on use of money largely because their continued existence depended on continuous trade and exchange - though to be fair, I find it a bit absurd that none of these former UFP stations etc. became self sustaining. They had the means to do so... but Trek writers seemingly want to 'avoid' this kind of route to make things look 'less easy' - which to me was apalling.
Imagine what you could do if you retrofitted the hull of a ship you wanted and hired your own crew.
I'd argue there is some form of money or compensation exists. StarFleet Credits do exist for trading in between Nation States. Who's to say that Credits don't exist. I know the money argument is old and can go either way. But that's a discussion for another time.
But let's say they take the hull of old StarFleet vessels and retro-fit it, imagine what you could do.
There could be limits to how much you could do with such a ship depending on the hull geometry, etc.
I can think of a few things with Trek technology of the 24th century that would turn the ship into an epitome of self-sufficiency and advanced technology... Trek writers on the other hand don't seem to want to push things into this direction as some people already seem to think UFP technology is 'too advanced' (no such thing).
I'd imagine that computer hardware for civilians would be a bit different from some of the StarFleet required tech.
Some of it proprietary via hardware and/or software.
Civilians would probably have open sourced equivalents that worked nearly as well or have some advanced features that StarFleet wouldn't have.
Possibly, but as we saw, various colonies in TNG used LCARS UI too suggesting very similar/same computer systems and technology in general between what SF uses, and what civilians use.
The ENT-D when it encountered a Doud (before uncovering his secret that is) offered a food replicator to him and his recreated wife.
This to me indicates there is very little or no difference inmost of the technologies used by civilians and SF.
In fact, I would argue various technology used by the civilians would be identical to that used by SF (possibly slightly older depending on where the colonists stand in adoption of new technology - and some seemed very behind in this aspect because they simply didn't care about it).
SF seems to be the one in charge of civilian colonies when it comes to defensive and offensive systems too such as planetary shields and orbital defenses.
So I would imagine that there would be little to no difference in terms of how 'modern' a ship is... and since we mostly saw SF vessels to date, its possible that civilians don't have much use for private starships as there is no money in the Federation - for that, people would go to the border or outside UFP space where SF activity might be lower and where currency might be more 'optional' choice when it comes to exchange of goods and services... but otherwise, throughtout the UFP, there would be 0 need for money since goods and servies would have to be made available to everyone... and once you have replicators on a planet along with a simple database, you have what is needed to create self-sufficiency and self-repair and self-maintenance too if you want it.
SF also seems to supply colony/transport ships to transport civilians where they need to go in UFP space - at least, we saw this happen in TNG.
Ds9 was a bit more ambiguous with this in who might be operating those transports, however, in fairness, Bajor and DS9 at the time were NOT part of UFP space (they were outside of it... and this is the primary reason why Quark was able to use currency still - the Bajorans used it, so Quark also used it - SF was there in an admin capacity to prevent the Cardassians from coming back, and while SF personnell had pretty much 'free reign' of the station, they DID participate in the local economy out of respect for Bajor and to forge formal relations with them (among other things - the goal WAS to bring Bajor into the Federation).
Lakota pointed the way for the big surprise that the Dominion had waiting for it.
It looked like just any other ship---but packed a much larger punch.
Even if you had a few retrofits---it would force the Domionion to have to treat every older ship with respect.
My guess is that the older ships we saw more easily slagged actually had very few crew in them---with class of 96 ships hanging back and doing real damage---just the threat of Q-ships (disguise raiders) gives one an advantage.
Starfleet loses all the old Frankinships--leaving everything in the PICARD era to HAVE to be new.
SF did use Neutronium fibers in hull construction of their 31st century vessels... suggesting that the hulls are using composites which implement Neutronium as a reinforcing element.
And besides, SF already had exposure to Neutronium in large quantities (specifically from the Planet Killer which is made of the stuff - I still maintain SF should have as a result of that already have Neutronium hulls by the late 24th century.
First decade or two after encountering that thing would have probably been enough so that SF sensors are first able able to scan the Neutronium thoroughly, the next decade or two would have been enough to start developing methods capable of affecting it (weapons, etc.), and another 10 to 20 odd years should have been more than enoguh for SF to start manufacturing its own in large enough quantities - heck, they could also use the Planet Killer itself to remove large swaths of samples from it and use those in manufacturing composites which use Neutronium fibers.
I'd argue that Section 31 would've grabbed the Planet Killer and kept it's hull somewhere to be studied or to have the Neutronium hull mined for raw material. There's no way they would've let such a valuable find go to waste. We already know that Section 31 & StarFleet has at least one Area 51 like "Black Site" that we know of. Who's to say that there isn't more of them lying around?
It's not just the hull that was valuable, the Pure Anti-Proton Beam was pretty powerful, a Energy Weapon like that would be invaluable to the arsenal of any StarFleet ship.
The fact that we don't see Neutronium hulls in use by the 24th or 25th century and that we only see the first hard evidence by the 32nd century means StarFleet and the UFP don't learn how to use it until much later.
I don't agree this would be the case. Otherwise, SF wouldn't bother recyling anything in their replicators after the stuff was already made.
Worst case scenario (the way technology was depicted to work) would be that once you decompose older matter into base elements or energy, you end up with a bit of a loss (in the case of a meal, once you ate the meal, you recycle the leftovers along with the plate, cutlery, etc.)... so there is a loss yes, but ultimately, since you are working with a largely intact (or even damaged) starship, you end up with a large amount of base elements which can be used for construction of new starships and new alloys. You may need to ADD a bit of matter to compensate, but SF probably wouldn't make starship hulls from a composite that cannot be recycled effectively.
Not every single material is easily recyclable by the replicator. Many simpler materials are recyclable. More complicated or denser materials like heavy metals that are high up on the periodic table don't seem to be. Otherwise why would StarFleet need space scaffolding to erect the frames of StarShips. Why not replicate all of it in one go? The fact that the core skeleton and many parts have to be installed the old fashioned way means there are limitations to replication and as to the complexity of certain materials aren't easily replicatable or too energy intensive. Latinum specifically is called out for not being replicatable.
They obviously recycle some old hulls, just look at the time post Synth Rebellion, they run into a supply chain issue, so they are scavanging older parts from old StarShip frames and re-using it in newer ones. Ergo the Neo Constitution / Constitution 3 class.
But during times of supply ease, they wouldn't even bother to recycle or refit a ship like the did with the Refit Connie. They just build a new one and mothball the old one or find other uses for it.
I don't disagree that civilians would retrofit an existing SF hull into something of their own making, but its also possible that civilians won't be using outdated ships for that matter. And I wouldn't be surprised if SF allowed the use of its shipyards for civilian purposes... using similar/same design philosophies and approaches - the only difference is that main priority would go to SF, but given the vastness of UFP, there would be more than enough for civilian needs (and in UFP, most civilians who would venture into deep space seem to do so by joining SF in the first place).
Not every civilian will be wealthy enough to afford a brand new space frame.
Have you seen the costs of large yachts / boats IRL?
If you could get a older vessel that has many light years on it, just retro-fit and repair it for cheap, many people will opt to do it.
Imagine you leaving StarFleet at a reasonable age and starting your own company. You grab a old Miranda-class and retro-fit it and put in a new paint job to match your new company colors. Imagine what you could do with that =D.
Have lots of Synth/Android helpers assist you with retro-fitting. You'd be done in a reasonable amount of time.
Rios didn't seem like he was operating within UFP - in fact, it seemed like he was keeping clear of it and SF... so he likely acquired the La Sirena outside UFP space.
There's no evidence to say where he acquired the La Sirena. We just know it's not a StarFleet design.
As for operating in/out of UFP space, he seems to be able to enter / leave UFP space w/o issue.
The Space Police aren't after him for any reason, so he's free to come/go as he pleases.
As for Booker... eh, he was born long after the Burn already happened and distabilized the Federation... plus as we saw, previous UFP space had to fall back on use of money largely because their continued existence depended on continuous trade and exchange - though to be fair, I find it a bit absurd that none of these former UFP stations etc. became self sustaining. They had the means to do so... but Trek writers seemingly want to 'avoid' this kind of route to make things look 'less easy' - which to me was apalling.
The Trek Writers aren't the best when it comes to tech, we both know that.
But self sustainment depends on what resources you had at hand.
Many large facilities had enough resources to sustain themselves for years on end, but not indefinitely.
There could be limits to how much you could do with such a ship depending on the hull geometry, etc.
I can think of a few things with Trek technology of the 24th century that would turn the ship into an epitome of self-sufficiency and advanced technology... Trek writers on the other hand don't seem to want to push things into this direction as some people already seem to think UFP technology is 'too advanced' (no such thing).
Depends on how it's done and how much "Hand Wavium" are you using.
If you're going to argue for self sustainment, you need to plausibly come up with how to do it on a technical level.
Some things can be "Self Sustaining", but not everything.
There are some things you'll need to acquire on your own:
- Base Food Replication material stock being one thing that needs periodic replenishment.
- Raw Fuel for powering your Reactors (Mass amounts of pure Deuterium & Anti-Deuterium have to come from somewhere)
- Dilithium Crystals need to be mined as the control substance for the reactors.
- Base Matter Stock for your replicators to use to replicate most basic items.
- Medicine that have a biologically grown organic components that can't be replicated.
- Plenty of non replicatable materials exist. (Latinum is just one example, Duranium & Tritanium seem to come from ore deposits that need to be refined for use). The list is probably pretty large.
Possibly, but as we saw, various colonies in TNG used LCARS UI too suggesting very similar/same computer systems and technology in general between what SF uses, and what civilians use.
Could be, or there could be a open source equivalent. Especially given how Open Source UI mimics Windows/Apples natural DeskTop GUI's IRL.
The ENT-D when it encountered a Doud (before uncovering his secret that is) offered a food replicator to him and his recreated wife.
This to me indicates there is very little or no difference inmost of the technologies used by civilians and SF.
Depends on the tech, I'm sure a basic food replicator isn't anything special by that point.
In fact, I would argue various technology used by the civilians would be identical to that used by SF (possibly slightly older depending on where the colonists stand in adoption of new technology - and some seemed very behind in this aspect because they simply didn't care about it).
Jack did have a modified TOS era phaser, that thing would be ancient compared to the phasers of the 24th and 25th century. The sheer amount of energy efficiency or damage capacity or other features that would be gained by more modern variants would be huge.
SF seems to be the one in charge of civilian colonies when it comes to defensive and offensive systems too such as planetary shields and orbital defenses.
I would hope so, they are the military arm of the service when it comes down to fighting.
So I would imagine that there would be little to no difference in terms of how 'modern' a ship is... and since we mostly saw SF vessels to date, its possible that civilians don't have much use for private starships as there is no money in the Federation - for that, people would go to the border or outside UFP space where SF activity might be lower and where currency might be more 'optional' choice when it comes to exchange of goods and services... but otherwise, throughtout the UFP, there would be 0 need for money since goods and servies would have to be made available to everyone... and once you have replicators on a planet along with a simple database, you have what is needed to create self-sufficiency and self-repair and self-maintenance too if you want it.
The argument for money's existince within the UFP can go either way. Let's not re-start that old argument.
There's plenty of evidence to prove both sides of the debate.
IMO, my head-cannon of the 26th century UFP, currency & resource exchange is a bit more convoluted due to modern tech
:
SF also seems to supply colony/transport ships to transport civilians where they need to go in UFP space - at least, we saw this happen in TNG.
I'm sure government run transports will be it's own thing, seperate from civilian run services.
Just like we have the USPS & UPS & FedEx & countless smaller transport companies & services.
Even my Joint Services & StarFleet has it's own built in logistics service to service all the armed services branches.
No need for outsiders or contractors unless we need to hide the origins of the logistics servicing request and use a intermediary for that purpose.
DS9 was a bit more ambiguous with this in who might be operating those transports, however, in fairness, Bajor and DS9 at the time were NOT part of UFP space (they were outside of it... and this is the primary reason why Quark was able to use currency still - the Bajorans used it, so Quark also used it - SF was there in an admin capacity to prevent the Cardassians from coming back, and while SF personnell had pretty much 'free reign' of the station, they DID participate in the local economy out of respect for Bajor and to forge formal relations with them (among other things - the goal WAS to bring Bajor into the Federation).
Don't forget that the ECS (Earth Cargo Service) was in operation back in the day.
So civilians running transport services for profit is a thing.
The fact that Kassidy Yates also ran her own cargo business for profit.
Nothing wrong with having currency and using it, societies has been using since time immemorial; it's the gross abuse of currency & greed that is problematic along with power grabbing and being money grubbing. These are personal issues and flaws with people's personality. Greed or Un-Checked Desire for some form of power or control to dominate over others is what causes the problems that we see in society, that is a cultural issue that needs to be fixed or regulated to prevent from happening ever again.
