ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

[at Quark's]

My, that is a...compact UFP! Around 20 light years by 20.
If it's also 20 ly deep then that's 8000 cubic light years which could be what Picard meant in his statement in ST:FC

Eurm, not sure if the 'spread across eight thousand light years.' could be interpreted in that way.

That said, I agree that the 8000LY quote would make the Federation ridiculously huge or widespread. But it has been remarked time and again that a lot of scripts don't seem to have a proper sense of scale.

 

[fireproof78]

So yeah, I can see Gene Roddenberry and his lawyer excising anything Roddenberry didn't like about previous Star Trek that he didn't have a direct hand in creating, or where there was a question of whether another production company could win royalties if a case went to court.

If only fans could get that lawyer

 

[Caretaker]

And that is also first hand from Richard Arnold."

Richard Arnold. Now there's a name I've not heard in a long time.

 

[AresB]

Richard Arnold. Now there's a name I've not heard in a long time.

Indeed. He gave a rather long-winded response when he was interviewed by Timothy Lynch, basically saying that Star Trek was Gene's sandbox and if you so much wanted to play there, you played with his rules and toys only, and cleaned up after yourself leaving no lasting marks.

 

[MAGolding]

My, that is a...compact UFP! Around 20 light years by 20.
If it's also 20 ly deep then that's 8000 cubic light years which could be what Picard meant in his statement in ST:FC

I generally don't mind a smaller Federation as it makes better sense in terms of the travel times. Perhaps this is just the fully signed up members and there's an extended period outside that are more like UFP protectorates, where the Enterprise does most of her exploring and patrolling?
Allies, but not officially UFP

Eurm, not sure if the 'spread across eight thousand light years.' could be interpreted in that way.

That said, I agree that the 8000LY quote would make the Federation ridiculously huge or widespread. But it has been remarked time and again that a lot of scripts don't seem to have a proper sense of scale.

Making the policical borders of the federation larger or smaller farther or nearer, will not changed the fact that many worlds visited by protagonists or others in various episodes and movies are world orbiting real stars according to their names, stars which have known distances from Earth and from each other.

That is where many of the problems with the "galactography" of Star Trek come from, writers having no idea how close or how far various stars are from Earth, and not imagining that it makes a difference.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SciFiWritersHave/NoSenseOfDistance

 

[diankra]

It's been suggested that Klingon ships in the Romulan Neutral Zone, along with using the name of a ship apparently known as a historic tragedy, is all part of the simulation putting the trainee on edge.

 

[diankra]

Thanks. But it sounded to me like people were talking about star maps where the federation is made up of several unconnected bubbles. If people were just referring to the Federation being a large space with a few enclaves away from it, then I misunderstood what people were talking about, and I already found maps like those ones.

It wouldn't be unreasonable if sovereign space was, say, one light year out from a star, with anything else 'free waters' unless otherwise specified by a bilateral treaty.

 

[Trekkie27]

Making the policical borders of the federation larger or smaller farther or nearer, will not changed the fact that many worlds visited by protagonists or others in various episodes and movies are world orbiting real stars according to their names, stars which have known distances from Earth and from each other.

That is where many of the problems with the "galactography" of Star Trek come from, writers having no idea how close or how far various stars are from Earth, and not imagining that it makes a difference.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SciFiWritersHave/NoSenseOfDistance

You're right. And the other problem is that the M-class planets, ie habitable ones, would not necessarily be within the right orbit, and they would almost certainly not have the same gravity as Earth. This astronomical fact would have made for some interesting stories, and, with the writers not appreciating this, it leads to further problems.

 

[fireproof78]

This astronomical fact would have made for some interesting stories, and, with the writers not appreciating this, it leads to further problems.

There will always be limits.

 

[Maurice]

ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

Yes.

 

[Tenacity]

I found a wide variety of maps, but not one that has the Federation made of many unconnected bubbles

Most likely that is what the federation is. Bubbles. Each centered on a members home system, various members colonies, federeation colonies. The federation can claim everything inbetween, but unless the federation has a (non) warship sitting right there the federation has no real control or ownership.

You'd need a 3D map to properly show politics in space.

I do have such a map in my collection, purchased years ago. three separate maps depicting the federation from the three axis (x, y and z). Either Star Trek Maps, or Star Trek Charts.

^^^

It says "UFP Negotiated Exploration Boundary," but who was that negotiated with.

Just between the members themselves?

 

[Nyotarules]

Most likely that is what the federation is. Bubbles. Each centered on a members home system, various members colonies, federeation colonies. The federation can claim everything inbetween, but unless the federation has a (non) warship sitting right there the federation has no real control or ownership.

This idea makes sense, even if long range ships like the Enterprise are travelling in a straight line not every star system they come across will want to join the UFP club, some will tell them to piss off.

 

[Noname Given]

Most likely that is what the federation is. Bubbles. Each centered on a members home system, various members colonies, federeation colonies. The federation can claim everything inbetween, but unless the federation has a (non) warship sitting right there the federation has no real control or ownership.I do have such a map in my collection, purchased years ago. three separate maps depicting the federation from the three axis (x, y and z). Either Star Trek Maps, or Star Trek Charts.
It says "UFP Negotiated Exploration Boundary," but who was that negotiated with.

Just between the members themselves?

I would assume the Orgainians. (Seriously, even though the negotiation was one side - IE Do this or we immobilize your entire Star Fleet/Klingon Fleet).

 

[Trekkie27]

Good point about the bubbles. But I presume neither the Klingons nor Romulans would be so nice to the planets within their reach.

 

[Morgan Primus]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, so I'll mention it.

The other franchise is far more unified and integrated. To give one example, Rogue One has a similar feel to Star Wars: A New Hope, in terms of uniforms and fell. Our franchise, however is not, and, to give the most famous example, the Klingons look different, which leads to problems explaining why they look different. And, to give a second example, the Starfleet uniforms are also different.
Not only that, our stories tend to contradict each other, because, when TOS started, they were literally making it up as they went along. And, after that, they didn't bother to maintain a consistency. And let's not even talk about the reboot.

That may be because only one man owned it for decades, and, even now, there is a centralized story group of writers who tell that story. Ours, on the other hand, are owned by Paramount and CBS separately, with no central command to ensure consistency. And that detracts from our enjoyment of the stories.

Any thoughts?

Star Trek started a good bit earlier than Star Wars. Budgets were different.

We can just handwave the TOS klingons from the versions we know now.

Same with the Romulans.

 

[fireproof78]

Little is willing to be handwaved at this point.

 

[Morgan Primus]

Little is willing to be handwaved at this point.

Then wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth shall continue

 

[fireproof78]

Then wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth shall continue

Sadly, yes.

I didn't agree with Roddenberry on many things but his whole "The Klingons always looked like that" bit regarding TMP was the most reasoned thing one could ask for. And, unfortunately, no one took it to heart and now are arguments that take the most strict, literalist, interpretation of the material continue.

More's the pity.

 

[Morgan Primus]

Sadly, yes.

I didn't agree with Roddenberry on many things but his whole "The Klingons always looked like that" bit regarding TMP was the most reasoned thing one could ask for. And, unfortunately, no one took it to heart and now are arguments that take the most strict, literalist, interpretation of the material continue.

More's the pity.

To me it’s just a waste of time worrying about.

We know why the Klingons and Romulans look like they do now, regardless.

 

[STEPhon IT]

ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.

Yes.

Writers should not write episodes to explain such differences in appearances of the Klingons or Romulans, allow their characters to flourish and the viewer will either accept it or ignore it.