Spring Anime 2010

[firehawk12]

^
Or you end up frustrating the people who care about this stuff. I mean, when I watch Chinese movies, I get very annoyed at the subs sometimes but I accept it because these films are mainstream. But anime is niche, and the people who watch it with subs don't need their hands held.

I feel like this is part of the larger sub/dub debate. I figure if you want the fully localized version of the show without honorifics or colloquialisms, you'll watch the dub.

Although, there are still funny moments:

 

[Pilot Ace]

But anime is niche, and the people who watch it with subs don't need their hands held.

I can understand this position, however... Anime needs to expand beyond its niche audience if it wants to be profitable. For better or worse, the Japanese companies heavily rely on international sales of its anime to stay afloat. If the American translators started subbing with all this untranslated mess it would only make it more difficult for people to get into it.

Personally, I do watch fansubs and I can fully admit I don't know and don't want to know all the various honorifics and random Japanese words. When I watch a show I don't want to see words in a different language because I don't speak that language. Notes at the top of the screen are irritating because I have to take my eye off of the visuals for two, separate instances now instead of just one. If there's a note of any significance it will generally require me to pause the video, which interrupts the entire experience.

This is still the case even though I watch all my television with closed captioning. When watching anime I purchase on DVD I'll watch with the dub, but also turn on the subtitles. So, it is not because I am not used to reading subtitles. For me, at the very least, two instances of text on a screen screeches the entire viewing experience to a halt.

I feel like this is part of the larger sub/dub debate. I figure if you want the fully localized version of the show without honorifics or colloquialisms, you'll watch the dub.

And perhaps this is the case, but I don't think it should be.

It strikes me that if you want the truest experience of the anime... Learn Japanese! That way you will truly understand the nuances of the dialogue in every way. If seeing honorifics and random words turns your crank so thoroughly... Really dive in and learn another language so you don't need subtitles at all.

Subtitles should be there for us that don't speak the language and don't want to/don't have the time to learn it instead. Like the dub, it should be the smoothest translation possible which requires localization. In the ideal world the dub should be exactly like the subtitles, because that would mean the best translation job has been applied to both.

 

[firehawk12]

The contemporary anime industry doesn't rely on foreign sales. Those are generally considered a bonus, mostly because anime in other markets outside of Asia generally isn't profitable. It's why we went from 5 or so American localization studios down to just Funimation.

If there's a problem with niche, it's because anime is stuck trying to sell to Japanese nerds and what they want. It's funny, because someone suggested the reason why Bakemonogatari was SO successful in Japan was because Japanese nerds get off on having abrasive female characters yell at them. It consistently outsold K-On!, if that's any indication.

That aside, bigger picture wise, you have groups that do agree with you and simply remove the honorifics. I don't mind that much because as long as you are paying attention to the show, you'll hear them say "chan" or "sama" or "kun" or whatever so you can just keep that in mind.

I think RightStuf's localization of MariMite was interesting though. They had two subtitle tracks. One for people who want everything fully localized and one that keeps the "Japanese-isms" intact. So you can choose to see "Lady Sachiko" or "Sachiko-sama". I guess that's the easiest way to please everyone.

 

[SlaveOfSeven]

Key bit was "best job they can."

There's a point where "best job they can" becomes just a plain old bad job.

Leaving the honorifics is even sillier if your contention is it doesn't sound natural because no one is going to speak in English and then switch to Japanese mid-sentence.

I can confidently tell you you're wrong. How? Because I, and many others, watch fansubs that leave the honorifics untranslated and it seems perfectly natural. After watching a couple of shows you don't even notice; in the same way that you get used to reading subtitles themselves; or the gigantic eyes; or picking out seperate lines of counterpoint in some intricate baroque piece, though that probably takes a bit longer to learn. People adapt. What I, and surely most people, can't adapt to, however, is the unidiomatic use of my native language; it will always draw attention to itself. Also, of course, English is full of foreign words and expressions. Learning a couple of new ones isn't a problem.

Yes, I have heard people say "big sister" in real life, especially when making introductions.

"This is my big sister, Anne" is a bit different to "Big Sister, I'm going to the shops now. What should I get, Big Sister?"

I was going to write a more detailed reply, but really what's the point? We're just going to go in circles, thoroughly entrenched in our respective camps.

I'll just finish with this:

They're not direct equivalents, no, but they communicate the social status of the characters in relation to one another because of the associations. If a character says "sir" to another character my assumption is the one is of a higher status than the other (depending on the context, of course).

I don't see any problem.

It's "Sir" with a capital "S". The problem with it is that Naratu is about ninjas, but the Crunchyroll translators are using words that evoke, at best, the English aristocracy, and at worst, King Arthur and the Friggin Knights of the Round Table. It's very, very distracting when some character who's just a ninja is referred to as "Sir Gawainu". Sure he's a true ninja among ninjas; he's respected as a wise and powerful ninja. BUT HE'S A NINJA, NOT A KNIGHT.

 

[Pilot Ace]

The contemporary anime industry doesn't rely on foreign sales. Those are generally considered a bonus, mostly because anime in other markets outside of Asia generally isn't profitable. It's why we went from 5 or so American localization studios down to just Funimation.

Everything I've heard about the anime industry in Japan contradicts this very strongly. But, maybe all my random sources over the years are incorrect, though I sort of doubt it.

The anime bubble has popped in recent years... Again. Partially because America is not buying the licenses for so many titles... Which has a lot to do with our economy, of course.

If there's a problem with niche, it's because anime is stuck trying to sell to Japanese nerds and what they want. It's funny, because someone suggested the reason why Bakemonogatari was SO successful in Japan was because Japanese nerds get off on having abrasive female characters yell at them. It consistently outsold K-On!, if that's any indication.

That's definitely part of the problem, which moe is also a symptom of. Apparently it's much easier to sell hyper/distorted sexualizations to otaku than appealing to a broader audience.

That aside, bigger picture wise, you have groups that do agree with you and simply remove the honorifics. I don't mind that much because as long as you are paying attention to the show, you'll hear them say "chan" or "sama" or "kun" or whatever so you can just keep that in mind.

Even still, the best translations should localize the honorifics if they're integral to the characterizations.

I think RightStuf's localization of MariMite was interesting though. They had two subtitle tracks. One for people who want everything fully localized and one that keeps the "Japanese-isms" intact. So you can choose to see "Lady Sachiko" or "Sachiko-sama". I guess that's the easiest way to please everyone.

Oy. I guess that's an interesting compromise. I think it's embarrassing it was done though... How well did that show sell? I've never heard of it before.

 

[SlaveOfSeven]

I think RightStuf's localization of MariMite was interesting though. They had two subtitle tracks. One for people who want everything fully localized and one that keeps the "Japanese-isms" intact. So you can choose to see "Lady Sachiko" or "Sachiko-sama". I guess that's the easiest way to please everyone.

No prizes for guessing which subtitle track I watched. And I very much appreciated having that option. I may well not have bought the DVDs if that option hadn't been available.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, RightStuf (or whatever their publishing arm is called) does niche shows and makes a profit doing it, so they're doing fine. They don't believe in doing dubs, for example, and they know the shows they do have a hardcore built in fanbase. I haven't seen their Aria DVDs yet, so I have no idea if they do two sets of subs for each of their shows... but it was a big feature of their MariMite localization.

And like SlaveofSeven suggests, you can't localize honorifics. There's no equivalent, so if you want a "clean" localization, you just have to get rid of them altogether.

The anime industry in Japan is in decline, certainly, but they aren't making shows with the assumption that they'll be able to make money through licensing. Even the Stan Lee show that just started airing might never see the light of day here officially. Certainly the days of having new anime on TV in North America are for the most part, done with.

I think RightStuf's localization of MariMite was interesting though. They had two subtitle tracks. One for people who want everything fully localized and one that keeps the "Japanese-isms" intact. So you can choose to see "Lady Sachiko" or "Sachiko-sama". I guess that's the easiest way to please everyone.

No prizes for guessing which subtitle track I watched. And I very much appreciated having that option. I may well not have bought the DVDs if that option hadn't been available.

Yeah. For a show that's so much about "class", I don't think I could handle watching it without the "realistic" subtitles, even though I could hear everything they were saying. It would just be way too off putting.

 

[Pilot Ace]

There's a point where "best job they can" becomes just a plain old bad job.

Oh, certainly. Not every translation is going to be good. Then again, I consider most fansubs I've been exposed to as lacking in their translations because of all the things we've been discussing.

I can confidently tell you you're wrong. How? Because I, and many others, watch fansubs that leave the honorifics untranslated and it seems perfectly natural. After watching a couple of shows you don't even notice; in the same way that you get used to reading subtitles themselves; or the gigantic eyes; or picking out seperate lines of counterpoint in some intricate baroque piece, though that probably takes a bit longer to learn. People adapt. What I, and surely most people, can't adapt to, however, is the unidiomatic use of my native language; it will always draw attention to itself. Also, of course, English is full of foreign words and expressions. Learning a couple of new ones isn't a problem.

Well, I can confidently say you're wrong from my perspective. I've been watching anime for years through fansubs and it still feels utterly unnatural to me and several of my friends who watch anime, though not as regularly as myself. Reading English and suddenly seeing Japanese interspersed is so completely distracting that I can barely comprehend how someone can think otherwise.

I think part of the reason for the "adaptation" is there aren't as many options when it comes to fansubs. Most groups do these sorts of shotty, cliquey translations and it's less peope adapting to it and more having to accept it due to no other option unless the show is officially subbed/dubbed later.

"This is my big sister, Anne" is a bit different to "Big Sister, I'm going to the shops now. What should I get, Big Sister?"

Like I said, dialogue itself is not 100% natural.

In your example, after introducing the characters you shouldn't need to remind the audience constantly of the characters relationship anyway, it's redundant at that point. That Japanese quirk can be dropped in most conversations between them without harming characterization.

I was going to write a more detailed reply, but really what's the point? We're just going to go in circles, thoroughly entrenched in our respective camps.

Welcome to the internet.

It's "Sir" with a capital "S". The problem with it is that Naratu is about ninjas, but the Crunchyroll translators are using words that evoke, at best, the English aristocracy, and at worst, King Arthur and the Friggin Knights of the Round Table. It's very, very distracting when some character who's just a ninja is referred to as "Sir Gawainu". Sure he's a true ninja among ninjas; he's respected as a wise and powerful ninja. BUT HE'S A NINJA, NOT A KNIGHT.

Meh. Perhaps there could have been a better translation in that specific case? I don't know, I've never bothered watching the show and I don't watch shows on Crunchyroll so I don't know if their standard of translations are not quite up to par.

Off the top of my head, I could offer maybe a better translation would have been "Master" or something? Would that not be suitable?

When you put it into context I can still determine the distinction they're making though, so it does come off as understandable much more than leaving foreign words in the sentences.

 

[Pilot Ace]

Well, RightStuf (or whatever their publishing arm is called) does niche shows and makes a profit doing it, so they're doing fine. They don't believe in doing dubs, for example, and they know the shows they do have a hardcore built in fanbase. I haven't seen their Aria DVDs yet, so I have no idea if they do two sets of subs for each of their shows... but it was a big feature of their MariMite localization.

Hmm, my immediate reaction is it's probably less that they "don't believe in doing dubs" and more that if they are that niche in the shows they choose that they made a conscious decision in order to save money. Subs being much cheaper than dubs.

And like SlaveofSeven suggests, you can't localize honorifics. There's no equivalent, so if you want a "clean" localization, you just have to get rid of them altogether.

Not true. "Mister," "Teacher," "Lady," "Sir," "Big Sister," "Little Sister" etc. are all possible options to choose. Although those are probably the least creative examples, it all depends on context. Sometimes they're localized through the structure or tone of the sentence and including a nickname to imply the honorifics that show familiarity.

It's not one-to-one, but it is possible to modify the dialogue to 'translate' them.

The anime industry in Japan is in decline, certainly, but they aren't making shows with the assumption that they'll be able to make money through licensing. Even the Stan Lee show that just started airing might never see the light of day here officially. Certainly the days of having new anime on TV in North America are for the most part, done with.

Some shows are specifically made with the intention to sell to America... IIRC, Ergo Proxy was licensed before it even aired because it was catered to Americans and, this I'm much less sure about, actually didn't do well in Japan potentially because of that.

It may be that attitude is changing because of America's decline in licensing, but in the recent past this attitude was very much considered in making new shows. Not all, of course.

 

[SlaveOfSeven]

Like I said, dialogue itself is not 100% natural.

There's a big difference between dialogue that seems authentic but really isn't if you look at it closely and badly written dialogue. "Big Sister, blah, blah, blah" is just bad dialogue. A good translator (given the requisite of not including honorifics) would find another way around the problem without trying to directly translate the honorifics when it's not appropriate (and it's not appropriate in the majority of cases).

I will say this about fansubbers though. They really need to learn when to use "love" instead of "like". There was a really bizarre moment in one show I watched that had a highly charged scene between two people who had fallen in love. It was pretty intense stuff. Lots of angst and drama. And the guy's impassioned declaration was translated as "I really like you!". What an anticlimax that was. So it's not as if I think fansubbers are perfect.

 

[firehawk12]

Not true. "Mister," "Teacher," "Lady," "Sir," "Big Sister," "Little Sister" etc. are all possible options to choose. Although those are probably the least creative examples, it all depends on context. Sometimes they're localized through the structure or tone of the sentence and including a nickname to imply the honorifics that show familiarity.

It's not one-to-one, but it is possible to modify the dialogue to 'translate' them.

Well, what would you translate for senpai or kohai? And with the case of MariMite, "Lady" Sachiko just doesn't sound right because that's not what she is. Yeah, she's the daughter in a rich family, but she's not a "lady" in any sense of the word. Now, Oujo-sama might translate as Lady, but the sama honorific after names can have different meanings.

Then again, I have a problem with Americans needing to convert high school years to the American system. In Japan, high school is three years so it just doesn't work out. I mean, they clearly say "second year" or "third year" but subbers insist on translating that to junior and senior. Bah.

Some shows are specifically made with the intention to sell to America... IIRC, Ergo Proxy was licensed before it even aired because it was catered to Americans and, this I'm much less sure about, actually didn't do well in Japan potentially because of that.

It may be that attitude is changing because of America's decline in licensing, but in the recent past this attitude was very much considered in making new shows. Not all, of course.

That may have been the case before, but each season there are 30 shows and most of those never show up here officially.

I will say this about fansubbers though. They really need to learn when to use "love" instead of "like". There was a really bizarre moment in one show I watched that had a highly charged scene between two people who had fallen in love. It was pretty intense stuff. Lots of angst and drama. And the guy's impassioned declaration was translated as "I really like you!". What an anticlimax that was. So it's not as if I think fansubbers are perfect.

That's the problem between (dai) suki and aishteru unfortunately.

 

[Pilot Ace]

A good translator (given the requisite of not including honorifics) would find another way around the problem without trying to directly translate the honorifics when it's not appropriate (and it's not appropriate in the majority of cases).

And I agree with that. Those would be the best translations.

Well, what would you translate for senpai or kohai? And with the case of MariMite, "Lady" Sachiko just doesn't sound right because that's not what she is. Yeah, she's the daughter in a rich family, but she's not a "lady" in any sense of the word. Now, Oujo-sama might translate as Lady, but the sama honorific after names can have different meanings.

Like I said, I don't know and don't want to know what honorifics mean. I couldn't tell you what a good translation for those would be because of that and the fact that I am not a translator by any stretch of the imagination.

I can barely speak English!

That may have been the case before, but each season there are 30 shows and most of those never show up here officially.

Yeah, not all the shows are created with the conscious desire to sell to America, of course, and chances are the number that have been in recent years have even been dwindling.

 

[firehawk12]

Like I said, I don't know and don't want to know what honorifics mean. I couldn't tell you what a good translation for those would be because of that and the fact that I am not a translator by any stretch of the imagination.

I can barely speak English!

I think at that point you are in danger of rewriting a show... which might be better than the awkwardness of some subs to be honest. I don't know, I'm still relatively new to anime and I feel like I've picked up all the nuances without needing much explanation.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I checked out Senkou no Nightraid. This one should be interesting. It's kinda like Darker Than Black meets Indiana Jones.

It's hilarious how the anime producers are afraid of a Chinese backlash. They even put a disclaimer at the end of the show.

 

[firehawk12]

I checked out Senkou no Nightraid. This one should be interesting. It's kinda like Darker Than Black meets Indiana Jones.

It's hilarious how the anime producers are afraid of a Chinese backlash. They even put a disclaimer at the end of the show.

Funny enough, I've read that Chinese subbers have been slow to pick it up for the same reason.

 

[SlaveOfSeven]

I should probably apologise for derailing the thread.

So yeah, Angel Beats is... strange. Not that that's anything new. Anyone else find that these sorts of shows with weird settings and arbitrary "rules" usually end quite unsatisfactorarily? Armed Librarians from last season was a good example, I think. Quite a strange world it was set in, with a weird mix of theology and styles and strange situations; but the ending was just really random; things happened and resolved the story because of the weird, arbitrary rules of the world rather than from a logical progression of events. Angel Beats seems destined to end in a similar way. That is, if it doesn't end with him waking up from a coma! Damn... now I've written that it suddenly seems quite likely.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone feels the same way: that the weird, random, arbitrary worlds that play a large part in making anime attractive are also in large part responsible for ruining stories with weird, random, arbitrary endings?

I've been up all night so I'm probably just writing drivel anyway.

Edit to add: Tom and Jerry violence but with people, played for jokes, using a fairly naturalistic style (as opposed to, say, the Simpsons) starts to become a bit... disturbing.

 

[firehawk12]

Angel Beats has the aura of a show that simply tries to hard to be something "important" - and the key strategy for anything that wants to do that is to be as obtuse with details as possible.

Look at Lost, after all.

 

[zakkrusz]

Angel Beats has the aura of a show that simply tries to hard to be something "important" - and the key strategy for anything that wants to do that is to be as obtuse with details as possible.

Look at Lost, after all.

I sorta like to see it as kind of a satire, since to me they've got a serious situation which obviously is not taken too seriously, and it has some subtle references to other shows. At any rate, it's weird and different enough to me fresh.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone feels the same way: that the weird, random, arbitrary worlds that play a large part in making anime attractive are also in large part responsible for ruining stories with weird, random, arbitrary endings?

With those kinds of series I believe it's then up to the characters to be the anchor that keeps you coming back. Book of Bantora did not hook me, though I still finished it, and I attribute that to being the reason. Most everyone was just 1 dimensional or uninteresting.

 

[firehawk12]

Well, episode 2 sort of amped up the seriousness of the show anyway. I don't mind it all that much, I'm just skeptical is all. It certainly looks pretty at least.

Also, Giant Killing with the funny English. There must be random English teachers they can pull off the street to do these lines!

 

[Witterquick]

I will say this about fansubbers though. They really need to learn when to use "love" instead of "like". There was a really bizarre moment in one show I watched that had a highly charged scene between two people who had fallen in love. It was pretty intense stuff. Lots of angst and drama. And the guy's impassioned declaration was translated as "I really like you!". What an anticlimax that was. So it's not as if I think fansubbers are perfect.

That's the problem between (dai) suki and aishteru unfortunately.

Maybe it's just me but I would rather daisuki be translated as I really like you instead of I love you in certain cases. It is important to know that the Japanese do not throw around aishteru (love) casually. Moments when you use aishteru and daisuki are still really different. "I really like you" conveys a certain sense of shyness as well which might be important in certain context or for certain characters no matter how intense the situation is.


So hey guys, what are the good animes so far or the ones you're waiting to be subbed? I've only seen the 1st ep of the baseball anime Oofuri S2 - man I've really forgotten all the characters and what happened in the 1st season so it was pretty hard to follow. What do you recommend I watch next?