*Spoilers* U.S.S. Franklin Design?

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Divergence occurring in 2233 ≠ everything before 2233 remains unaffected by divergence. The former is supported by dialogue in ST'09, the latter is as much speculation as anything Pegg said. It is not speculation that the future has changed, that much is explicit. And if the future has changed, then it stands to reason that anything from the past that had been affected by that future—which potentially includes everything, but specifically includes much of ENT—can also have changed. That doesn't mean it all is entirely different by necessity, but any of it beyond what gets reaffirmed could be.

For instance, Into Darkness seems to confirm that there was an NX-01 of the same basic external design with which we're familiar, but that doesn't mean that ship did exactly all the same things. Beyond confirms some other points: there were losses of millions to the Xindi (which might be taken to imply that there was still a Temporal Cold War, since it provoked their attack on Earth in ENT, but not necessarily that it all played out exactly the same way); there were MACOs; the Federation was founded after a war with the Romulans. It's a comparable situation to the new SW canon: the writers are free to draw on whatever they like from the past Expanded Universe continuity and bring it in as they please, but they're beholden to none of it. They can pick and choose.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And if the future has changed, then it stands to reason that anything from the past that had been affected by that future—which potentially includes everything, but specifically includes much of ENT—can also have changed.

No, I don't think so. As of 2233, both timelines - Prime and Kelvin - are possible futures. And after 2233, both timelines ARE futures - they continue to exist. Therefore, characters from either the Prime or Kelvin timelines could travel back to a point before 2233 - and could even meet.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

And how is that not mere speculation or "headcanon" on your part?

 

[Tuskin38]

No, I don't think so. As of 2233, both timelines - Prime and Kelvin - are possible futures. And after 2233, both timelines ARE futures - they continue to exist. Therefore, characters from either the Prime or Kelvin timelines could travel back to a point before 2233 - and could even meet.

Err, no, its a completely separate quantum reality, but the events before 2233 are the same.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And how is that not mere speculation or "headcanon" on your part?

Yes, it is, but the point is that the "divergence" point of view is no less valid than Pegg's.

I mean, I don't mean to inflate my own ego or anything like that, but Pegg is not in control of the franchise. He's not the producer, he doesn't run Bad Robot, he's not writing ST4. So his view is no less OR more valid than any of ours is.

 

[Norsehound]

I said this somewhere else, but I thought Nero's intervention kicked through the entire timeline to enable time travellers of the future to come back and retroactively change things.

For example, say from all this the NX-2000 Excelsior wasn't sabotaged after all, since it didn't have to chase the stolen refit Enterprise. It launches successfully with a Transwarp engine then ends up blowing up the Malurian system after an engine malfunction. The Malurian survivors, deciding to seek vengence against the Federation, jump backwards in time though the Guardian of Forever to destroy the Federation. Their meddling in the NX-01 era results somehow in all ships now having windows instead of viewing screens, probably through a technical error like the Malurians manipulating all digital screens or something similar.

It doesn't have to be those exact circumstances, but that's an example of how pre Kelvin retconning through Time Travel can occur before the Kelvin's destruction. Nero set off a long chain of events since he came from outside the current time stream. Like the Defiant traveling backwards in time and crossing dimensions, one can say Nero did too.

That's how I reconcile changes pre-Kelvin destruction. If Trek can get away with interfering in the 1960s and 1990s with TOS and VOY doing it, so can the Kelvin timeline. We just haven't seen the adventures where that happens yet.

More than that I'm happy to abandon canon. The slavish attention to it can be really constraining, and by rebuilding what you once had you can edit and sift out the things that weren't working. Ask the Star Wars fans.

As to the Franklin barreling through the spacedock doors, I only had one remark on that scene after seeing the ship also plow through mountain tops and survive being buried for a hundred years:

"Tough little ship."

 

[BillJ]

For example, say from all this the NX-2000 Excelsior wasn't sabotaged after all, since it didn't have to chase the stolen refit Enterprise. It launches successfully with a Transwarp engine then ends up blowing up the Malurian system after an engine malfunction.

The Malurians were exterminated by Nomad in the episode, "The Changeling" from TOS season 2.

 

[Norsehound]

See I knew writing that example someone would nitpick it. Change Malurian to Argelius. Or Vendikar. Or Stratos. Or Zandog VII. Doesn't matter. Aliens who were wronged by the federation in the present go back in time to prevent it by destroying their enemies... just like Nero did. Just like the Borg did. An example.

I used the Malurian system as an example because we don't even know if Nomad still exists in the Kelvin timeline, or if it even met the Tan-Ru probe. Nomad could have missed the collision by a matter of seconds because of the cosmic roll of the dice.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

...Those doors, even before the swarm attack, were likely never designed to be fortified like Fort Knox. They only needed to be sturdy enough to close and keep the entry tunnel contained. I'm pretty sure Starfleet never intended those doors to withstand the kinetic energy of a ship crashing through them, as that would be a highly unlikely and improbable situation.

Of course they should have been strong enough to prevent that. They're doors protecting the interior of a base -- filled with a million-plus people -- from the certain death of exposure to the cold vacuum of space. What happens when the doors fail for a ship on standard approach? Or a ship on approach suffers systems failure and can't control its engines?

Even the World Trade Centers were designed to withstand the impact of a jet plane! Why? Because, no matter how unlikely, that was a possible threat they faced being in that environment.

So, to those who excuse this away because Star Trek "always" does ridiculous things: you're wrong here. This was a pretty egregious fault. Did it detract from the enjoyment of the film? No. But don't shrug and say "Ah, who cares....".

 

[Firebird]

Of course they should have been strong enough to prevent that. They're doors protecting the interior of a base -- filled with a million-plus people -- from the certain death of exposure to the cold vacuum of space. What happens when the doors fail for a ship on standard approach? Or a ship on approach suffers systems failure and can't control its engines?

The design of the base makes it pretty clear that the docking bays are not directly linked to the pressurized interior spaces. Indeed, the lake spaces like the one the Franklin came through seems to have been protected by a kind of forcefield, as we don't see crashing glass or see any of the water seep out of the breech when she surfaces to stop Krall. It would be a very poor design if those exterior bay doors were the only source of protection from the atmosphere leaking out into space.

Even the World Trade Centers were designed to withstand the impact of a jet plane! Why? Because, no matter how unlikely, that was a possible threat they faced being in that environment.

Seeing both WTC towers fall 15 years ago leads me to think they weren't quite built to withstand such an impact. In fact, we saw improvements to structural design in the wake of the destruction of those two towers that now safeguard against such catastrophic damage.

So, to those who excuse this away because Star Trek "always" does ridiculous things: you're wrong here. This was a pretty egregious fault. Did it detract from the enjoyment of the film? No. But don't shrug and say "Ah, who cares....".

Nah, on the scale of scientific faults, this is not even remotely egregious. I point to Spock's Brain, Fal Tor Pan, Khan's miracle blood, the Galactic Barrier, magically travelling to the center of the galaxy in the span of one movie. I could go on.

 

[OpenMaw]

Seeing both WTC towers fall 15 years ago leads me to think they weren't quite built to withstand such an impact. In fact, we saw improvements to structural design in the wake of the destruction of those two towers that now safeguard against such catastrophic damage.

In fact, the original architect was shocked and dismayed and blamed himself, because he hadn't designed them with that in mind. Their particular design is what lead them to collapse as they did in the first place.

 

[Kpnuts]

Umm, what is wrong with a starship flying through walls and mountains?

Erm... maybe you should read what you wrote again.

If only the Enterprise-E were as sturdy as the 200 year older Franklin, it could have just cruised through the Scimitar instead of being (rightly) torn to shreds on contact.

 

[Norsehound]

Prototype ships had no idea about the stresses of warp travel, so they could have been built to withstand enormous amount of punishment. Not like the cushy Federation ships of the 24th century, which dispensed with heavy armor and construction for the power of structural integrity fields.

That, or the Ent vs Scimitar is the result of two armored spaceships colliding. Either one hitting a mountain would survive the same way the Franklin did. Take your pick of explanations.

 

[Timo]

Erm... maybe you should read what you wrote again.

If only the Enterprise-E were as sturdy as the 200 year older Franklin, it could have just cruised through the Scimitar instead of being (rightly) torn to shreds on contact.

The Scimitar was a fellow starship. If two indestructible objects meet, destruction follows. But mountains are not indestructible objects - our heroes often enough destroy mountains with their weapons. Said weapons do not destroy starships outright.

So there would be no logic in a mountain being able to resist a starship. And thankfully, in Trek, mountains never stand a chance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kpnuts]

The Scimitar was a fellow starship. If two indestructible objects meet, destruction follows. But mountains are not indestructible objects - our heroes often enough destroy mountains with their weapons. Said weapons do not destroy starships outright.

So there would be no logic in a mountain being able to resist a starship. And thankfully, in Trek, mountains never stand a chance.

Timo Saloniemi

How about a space station? Is that indestructible enough for you?

It was a silly moment, created just for wowing the audience, why not leave it at that? It certainly looked incredible, but was just too ridiculous to take seriously, especially since the Franklin was badly damaged to begin with after you know, crash landing on an alien planet, crashing through a mountain, flying through a swarm of thousands of ships, and being a hundred years old...

 

[BillJ]

Oh come on.

Franklins "knock knock motherfucker" moment is more ridiculous than boomboxing the enemy to nothing?

Both were some of the best moments in the movie. Especially watching her burst through the doors in 3D, sitting dead center of the threatre, that's not something I'm going to forget soon.

It does make you wonder why the Swarm's VHF transmissions would interfere with subspace transmissions? Which likely work on a different spectrum entirely.

 

[BillJ]

Erm... maybe you should read what you wrote again.

If only the Enterprise-E were as sturdy as the 200 year older Franklin, it could have just cruised through the Scimitar instead of being (rightly) torn to shreds on contact.

Or the Enterprise-D? There seemed to be very little structural damage to the saucer when it crashed landed on Veridian III.

 

[Kemaiku]

It does make you wonder why the Swarm's VHF transmissions would interfere with subspace transmissions? Which likely work on a different spectrum entirely.

Magnets.

 

[jamestyler]

Or the Enterprise-D? There seemed to be very little structural damage to the saucer when it crashed landed on Veridian III.

I always remember Voyager's ice planet crash. Always found it funny that instead of doing major damage, it just bounced.

 

[Tuskin38]

Well the bounce was hard enough to kill the crew (but not damage them in gruesome ways apparently)