[Spoilers] Seriously flawed plotline

[Qonos]

This thread has gone so far afield from the original point I was trying to make. It deviated (like the timeline, ba dum bum) almost instantly. Original point: the plotline is that Kirk is just a cadet and then becomes first officer, then captain, all because of an emergency and because Pike has faith in him, completely going against all logic, any chain of command structure in any military/organization ever, and just being generally unfair (to all the other officers) and unwise. So, in other words, unbelievable and an example of lazy writing, and with all the money thrown at this and all the time they've had to come up with a good story to re-boot things, it should simply be a better plot. That was my point.

Since everyone went the other way, about how the timeline shift is the cause for the canon issues, I have another thought: why couldn't they get William Shatner into this movie? If everything changed, then events might not have played out the same way with Sorin. Just a thought.

Because any attempt to bring Kirk back from the dead would be fan-ficish.

We also don't know if Kirk is going to stay captain of the E at the end of the movie or if he just is captain in a crisis situation and goes off to continue the rest of his career and comes back to the Enterprise later. There's a lot of stuff we just DON'T know about this movie yet. We have one trailer and a set of scenes they explained which some were used to create the trailer.

 

[Captain X]

There is NO Coherant Canon in Star Trek. The writers have never cared.

They did, until the movies or so, particularly until TNG. That's because there was a common set of canon--the show bible and its defenders.

Violating canon to make things "exciting" is generally a result of laziness on the writer's part, not a necessity.

In fact, I regard the chains of canon to be lots of fun. It's a challenge. Sort of how I respect a writer who can make real science fiction exciting rather than having to take Star Wars whiz-bang short cuts.

I don't want lazu writing, but the current Trek canon is so full of holes that it needs to be fixed. It's something I'm hoping Abrams will do if he can't well then we wait and we get another attempt maybe 5 - 10 yrs down the road.

But we haven't even seen the movie yet to see whether it's going to be good or not. Unless Cary has a copy from THE FUTURE!!!....

That's right, bash him for pointing out flaws he sees in the movie based on existing information. It's not like it's just as valid as you assuming that the movie is going to rock because you like what you've seen so far or anything.

 

[Peacemaker]

People grow up. Nothing here is different, unless you are aware of something canonical about Kirk's personal character and behavior in his past that is covered in TOS that has been changed. If so, please tell us.

In Where No Man Has Gone Before Gary Mitchell describes Kirk as a duty-bound bookworm in his Academy days. It ahs always been implied that Kirk when he began his career took things very seriously and it was only later on, when he made captain when he loosened things up a little. This is even mentioned in Generations when Picard tries to lecture Kirk for supposedly neglecting his duties as a Starfleet officer. Kirk goes on "I was once like you. So blind by duty and obligation I couldn't see past my own uniform."

Kirk being a rebellious teenage delinquent on the run from an abusive druncle with cyborg cops following him while he starts fights at bars which serve Cardassian drinks for some reason flies in the face of everything canonically established about Kirk and simply doesn't sound like a particularly compelling story.

1. I asked about his personal character, and you pointed to his dedication to his studies.

a. That's a category error.

b. So what? People can be very disciplined in some things and not so disciplined in others. Indeed, I know some dang good doctors and lawyers who are drug addicts. My best friend, may he RIP, was an accountant - never late, never absent, very good at his job - and he was addicted to anabolic steroids and methamphetamine at the same time.

c. So, you've done nothing to demonstrate this movie has contradicted anything related to his personal character.

d. And people also move from one extreme to the other. Kirk said that Picard, who was at the time a Starfleet captain. But this isn't dealing with Kirk's time as captain. Indeed, Kirk seems to have run a pretty tight ship. One doesn't get promoted to Admiral for being lax in command.

e. And Picard and Kirk came from two different eras. Picard made that clear when he confronted Spock about "cowboy diplomacy" when he said that, in the 24th century, the Federation was less tolerant of that sort of thing.

 

[Immolatus]

[/quote]
Here is what I think should happen: either they defeat Nero after the attack has already happened, thereby keeping the altered timeline in place, or the timeline does not change despite their intervention. I don't want things to go back to the way they were. We've had a decade plus of the way things were, and the franchise became stagnant because of it.[/quote]


good point. they can reboot and all of the die hard fans can keep TOS in a different timeline. It's not like it never happened

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What's with the constant drunk uncle comments? I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe his uncle has any more to do with this movie than Harry Potter's uncle in OotP. Or that he does anything other than own a car.

A car which young Kirk is quite obviously *deliberately* trying to wreck. Why do you think he did that?

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

I just don't care anymore.

They can have my ten dollars. I'll decide later on if I love it or I hate it.

This is by far the most pontification I have ever done about ten dollars that I already know I am going to spend.

 

[bigdaddy]

The movie is being made 40 years after the show ended! Live with the fact that htings change people, it's forty fucking years later!

That said cadet to captain is rather crazy.

 

[M'Sharak]

What's with the constant drunk uncle comments? I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe his uncle has any more to do with this movie than Harry Potter's uncle in OotP. Or that he does anything other than own a car.

A car which young Kirk is quite obviously *deliberately* trying to wreck. Why do you think he did that?

I'm wondering more why you've suddenly decided to bump weeks-dormant threads about Kirk.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm wondering more why you've suddenly decided to bump weeks-dormant threads about Kirk.

Hang about. Let me put on my "even happen to look at, let alone care about, how old a thread is" face.

But this isn't dealing with Kirk's time as captain.

Then how do you explain the "Buckle up!" scene, where Kirk is wearing Captain's stripes on his sleeve? How could he possibly get there that quick, when he's only a Cadet (if that) for most of the film?

 

[LutherSloan]

I'm going to do something blasphemous here, and WAIT UNTIL THE MOVIE COMES OUT TO MAKE A JUDGEMENT!!

Let the flaming begin.

 

[Ovation]

But this isn't dealing with Kirk's time as captain.

Then how do you explain the "Buckle up!" scene, where Kirk is wearing Captain's stripes on his sleeve? How could he possibly get there that quick, when he's only a Cadet (if that) for most of the film?

Have you seen the movie yet? No? Is it not possible that (gasp) there might be flash-forwards and flash-backs in the story (a favourite and recurring storytelling theme of Abrams, by the way) that would make the worry about "cadet to captain in a week" be rather wasted? If it does turn out to be "cadet to captain in a week", I'll be sure to voice my disappointment--but, somehow, I doubt I'll need to.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I just don't care anymore.

They can have my ten dollars. I'll decide later on if I love it or I hate it.

Stone him! Stone the heathen!

Yeah. This movie is the only bit of "Star Trek" that I can rouse any interest in at all these days, and I just want to see it. I'm beyond caring about any of the promotion or hype.

At least until they release the next grainy image of Saldana in a bra, or the new Enterprise in crotchless panties, or something.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is it not possible that (gasp) there might be flash-forwards and flash-backs in the story (a favourite and recurring storytelling theme of Abrams, by the way) that would make the worry about "cadet to captain in a week" be rather wasted?

The only thing about the 'Buckle Up' scene that gives me any hope is that Kirk's face appears to be totally healed (for most of the trailer he's got scars from the bar fight). He doesn't look a whole lot older, though, which makes me wonder just how much time has passed.

If it does turn out to be "cadet to captain in a week", I'll be sure to voice my disappointment--but, somehow, I doubt I'll need to.

Quite.

At least we both agree that it *would* be silly if that happened. Wasn't it Entertainment Weekly that first broke that rumor? How accurate are they, usually?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...Then how do you explain the "Buckle up!" scene, where Kirk is wearing Captain's stripes on his sleeve? How could he possibly get there that quick, when he's only a Cadet (if that) for most of the film?

Yeah!...

...And how in the world did he age so fast. At the beginning of the film he's 12 years old, then two hours later he's the Captain?? Give me a break -- 12-year olds can't become 31-year old Captains in 2 hours. That's impossible!

and don't even get me started on newborn baby Spock.

 

[RobertScorpio]

What irks me is that they are completely misrepresenting the character of Kirk.

Kirk in TOS is The Man. This is the guy who bangs alien chicks on a regular basis, who whups alien ass and takes names at the drop of a hat. Kirk in Trek XI is simply a scared boy dealing with being abused by a drunk uncle and lashing out at every authority figure.

Which makes him more realistic..I like this angle on Kirk. It explains much, I believe, as to why he could never figure out how to be a good husband, or a good father, himself...makes you understand KIRK better, I think.

Rob
scorpio

 

[xortex]

I'm too scared to see this picture. Seeing Kirk and Spock get on a bus was horrifying enough for me. It seems like a Star Wars knock off anyway with the creature on the ice planet that Kirk must face and it's tough alien bar scene. Too bad he didn't have a light saber. The drunk uncle probably beats kirk because of lazy writing. To me the universe itself is a character and should be treated with as much respect as any other character. It seems what we're getting is a Star Trek universe that has veered off into Star Wars territory. Even ms Nimoy said it ended too soon for her, yea before she could get anything out of it's watery dumbed down plot probably. Star Wars and Star Trek and James bond are all different. aren't they?

 

[M'Sharak]

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I'm too scared to see this picture. Seeing Kirk and Spock get on a bus was horrifying enough for me. It seems like a Star Wars knock off anyway with the creature on the ice planet that Kirk must face and it's tough alien bar scene. Too bad he didn't have a light saber. The drunk uncle probably beats kirk because of lazy writing. To me the universe itself is a character and should be treated with as much respect as any other character. It seems what we're getting is a Star Trek universe that has veered off into Star Wars territory. Even ms Nimoy said it ended too soon for her, yea before she could get anything out of it's watery dumbed down plot probably. Star Wars and Star Trek and James bond are all different. aren't they?

Yeah...this film's gonna suck

...I mean, they made Kirk out to be a deadbeat dad. That is totally out of character for Kirk to have a son that he never met. I mean, Kirk was a "stack of books with legs" at the Academy. A guy like that would not have a son, then never have any contact until 25 years later. Who the hell is Carol Marcus anyway? We went through 3 years of TOS plus an entire feature movie without Kirk ever mentioning Carol Marcus or a son??

...and what the hell is a Kobayashi Maru Test? You would think that in WNMHGB Gary Mitchell would have mentioned Kirk and his famous run-in with the Kobayashi Maru test if that actually happened -- but he didn't. The writers just can't go around making stuff up about Kirk that didn't happen.

...and why is "Lieutenant" Saavik at the Academy anyway. Since when did Starfleet Lieutenants start going back to the Academy? Command training?? Are you serious? Obviously the writers of this film were too lazy to go back to TOS to find out how Starfleet Academy really works.

...what?...Wrong film? Ooops . Nevermind then. Sorry.

 

[cooleddie74]

I keep telling myself: "Nero's altered timeline is responsible for all this uncharacteristic, dumb-sounding shit. The movie will still rock."

Hopefully I'll be right.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

To me the universe itself is a character and should be treated with as much respect as any other character. It seems what we're getting is a Star Trek universe that has veered off into Star Wars territory...

Fine, let's just not have any more bloody "Star Trek," period. Okay?