[Spoilers] Seriously flawed plotline

[BenRoethig]

Why is Kirk wearing a black shirt?

Spoiler: answer

Most likely a an undershirt. Though he is a cadet. After the Death of his parents, Kirk is raised by his uncle and doesn't enter the academy until nearly a decade after he is supposed to.

Why does the Enterprise look different, does it go through another overhaul before the series?

Spoiler: answer

First, its 2008 and it needed an update. The Big E as shown in TOS was limited by 1960s technical knowledge and special effects technology. The JJ-Prise seems a more likely successor to the NX-class and lines up a bit better with the TMO refit.

Besides, its built 20 years later than in the normal timeline. Nero's attack might have resulted into a complete rethinking of the Constitution class.

 

[Siwilliams]

Oh wait it can't, because Checkov was not in the series till mid first season...

Later than that. Chekov didn't show up until the second season.

Crap you are right, he joins in the second season

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Oh wait it can't, because Checkov was not in the series till mid first season...

Later than that. Chekov didn't show up until the second season.

Crap you are right, he joins in the second season

Actually we have no idea when Chekov joined the crew. He first showed up *on the bridge* in the second season, but he could have been somewhere else we didn't see, in the first. A security guard, for example.

 

[Michael]

Later than that. Chekov didn't show up until the second season.

Crap you are right, he joins in the second season

Actually we have no idea when Chekov joined the crew. He first showed up *on the bridge* in the second season, but he could have been somewhere else we didn't see, in the first. A security guard, for example.

He must have been on the ship in the first season. Khan never forgets a face.

 

[Siwilliams]

Crap you are right, he joins in the second season

Actually we have no idea when Chekov joined the crew. He first showed up *on the bridge* in the second season, but he could have been somewhere else we didn't see, in the first. A security guard, for example.

He must have been on the ship in the first season. Khan never forgets a face.

Ands people say Nemesis is flawed, that is a huge flaw in star trek II, also Star Trek 2 has a joy stick scene, so what the hell is with people complaining about the joy stick scene in Insurrection?

 

[M'Sharak]

What's with the constant drunk uncle comments? I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe his uncle has any more to do with this movie than Harry Potter's uncle in OotP. Or that he does anything other than own a car.

Exactly. He likely has about one scene.

Assuming he's in it. It's funny how these things take on a life of their own.
[...]

He's in it. He's not always a nice guy. We just don't know how much there is to the part beyond what's stated in there.

 

[blaXXer]

From what we now know, Kirk is a cadet when he sneaks onboard the Enterprise. Then, when Pike goes off-ship to deal with an emergency, Spock is placed in command and Pike makes Kirk the First Officer under Spock. This is despite the fact that Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, Sulu and a hundred other officers are onboard. An insubordinant and almost criminal cadet is promoted to First Officer ... and then, having been goaded by future Spock, Kirk provokes young Spock into losing his emotional cool, at which point he assumes command of the Enterprise, once again without hundreds of other officers objecting to this jump in the chain of command.

If this were some generic sci-fi movie shown on a Sunday afternoon on the Sci-Fi Channel, I could ignore that incredibly poorly thought out and illogical (yes, I'm opening up space for Spock jokes) plot and then make fun of it on here the next day ... but this is Star Trek! Forgetting that the characters and ship already have a well-defined history that's being rewritten, it's supposed to be, well, you know, good. And not totally illogical and unbelievable.

Yes, I'll still be first in line to see the movie, yes, I'm still a Star Trek fan, but come on, couldn't they have done better than this to reboot the franchise? Poor poor poor writing.

consider this: This is part of a kobayashi-maru-like training exercise with the ENT fulfilling the same role as in ST II, thereby coming full-circle.

 

[Data Holmes]

From what we now know, Kirk is a cadet when he sneaks onboard the Enterprise. Then, when Pike goes off-ship to deal with an emergency, Spock is placed in command and Pike makes Kirk the First Officer under Spock. This is despite the fact that Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, Sulu and a hundred other officers are onboard. An insubordinant and almost criminal cadet is promoted to First Officer ... and then, having been goaded by future Spock, Kirk provokes young Spock into losing his emotional cool, at which point he assumes command of the Enterprise, once again without hundreds of other officers objecting to this jump in the chain of command.

If this were some generic sci-fi movie shown on a Sunday afternoon on the Sci-Fi Channel, I could ignore that incredibly poorly thought out and illogical (yes, I'm opening up space for Spock jokes) plot and then make fun of it on here the next day ... but this is Star Trek! Forgetting that the characters and ship already have a well-defined history that's being rewritten, it's supposed to be, well, you know, good. And not totally illogical and unbelievable.

Yes, I'll still be first in line to see the movie, yes, I'm still a Star Trek fan, but come on, couldn't they have done better than this to reboot the franchise? Poor poor poor writing.

consider this: This is part of a kobayashi-maru-like training exercise with the ENT fulfilling the same role as in ST II, thereby coming full-circle.

That is definitely a nice tie in right there... And would explain a great many things about Kirk's "depression" and McCoy's insistence about getting his command back and riding a desk...

 

[Peacemaker]

Why is Kirk wearing a black shirt? Was not like that in the series. Why does the Enterprise look different, does it go through another overhaul before the series? Oh wait it can't, because Checkov was not in the series till mid first season, and the movie takes place before it, those are just some of the flaws

Chekov is in it and Kirk is only a cadet? I thought Kirk was older then Chekov.

Kids go to college at different times. My best friend in college was about five years older than I. So, explanation: Kirk is older than Chekov. Chekov entered the academy at a younger age than average, or Kirk entered at an older than average age.

 

[Peacemaker]

From what we now know, Kirk is a cadet when he sneaks onboard the Enterprise. Then, when Pike goes off-ship to deal with an emergency, Spock is placed in command and Pike makes Kirk the First Officer under Spock. This is despite the fact that Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, Sulu and a hundred other officers are onboard. An insubordinant and almost criminal cadet is promoted to First Officer ... and then, having been goaded by future Spock, Kirk provokes young Spock into losing his emotional cool, at which point he assumes command of the Enterprise, once again without hundreds of other officers objecting to this jump in the chain of command.

If this were some generic sci-fi movie shown on a Sunday afternoon on the Sci-Fi Channel, I could ignore that incredibly poorly thought out and illogical (yes, I'm opening up space for Spock jokes) plot and then make fun of it on here the next day ... but this is Star Trek! Forgetting that the characters and ship already have a well-defined history that's being rewritten, it's supposed to be, well, you know, good. And not totally illogical and unbelievable.

Yes, I'll still be first in line to see the movie, yes, I'm still a Star Trek fan, but come on, couldn't they have done better than this to reboot the franchise? Poor poor poor writing.

consider this: This is part of a kobayashi-maru-like training exercise with the ENT fulfilling the same role as in ST II, thereby coming full-circle.

That is definitely a nice tie in right there... And would explain a great many things about Kirk's "depression" and McCoy's insistence about getting his command back and riding a desk...

That's my guess too. Pike and Spock are taking the cream of the crop cadets (with Kirk sneaking aboard) on a training voyage as well as a slew of experimental equipment (which would also account for the "more advanced than TOS looking" equipment too boot. Enterprise is acting as the training ship, and she's acting as the Excelsior of her day.

 

[datas_cat_spot]

Exactly. He likely has about one scene.

Assuming he's in it. It's funny how these things take on a life of their own.
[...]

He's in it. He's not always a nice guy. We just don't know how much there is to the part beyond what's stated in there.

I stand corrected. Perhaps Jimmy is fleeing his abusive uncle when the cop shows up.

 

[tranya]

So we take a character who had a really interesting backstory. Tarsus IV anyone? And we're replacing it with poor Jimmy being raised by Uncle Druncle, so he turns out a turd.

Major step up there.

An interesting backstory? One that's only addressed in one episode, one in which Kirk really seems to have suffered very little as a consequence (compared to Riley or Leighton)? And one which makes very little sense in the larger "I grew up in Iowa, I just work in space" myth for the character?

I love "Conscience of the King," but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's somehow helping flesh out the character in any way. The new movie seems to actually want to show how Kirk as a character developed, and I'm all for that.

 

[Franklin]

From what we now know, Kirk is a cadet when he sneaks onboard the Enterprise. Then, when Pike goes off-ship to deal with an emergency, Spock is placed in command and Pike makes Kirk the First Officer under Spock. This is despite the fact that Scotty, McCoy, Uhura, Sulu and a hundred other officers are onboard.

Pike knows Kirk is gifted. Pike is the one who pushed him in the direction of Starfleet. No one ever doubted Kirk's capabilities when he focused. Finding that focus is part of this movie.

An insubordinant and almost criminal cadet is promoted to First Officer ... and then, having been goaded by future Spock, Kirk provokes young Spock into losing his emotional cool, at which point he assumes command of the Enterprise, once again without hundreds of other officers objecting to this jump in the chain of command.

Well, I don't want to bring up a spoiler here, because I don't know what you know (if you know what I mean). Facts that were initially spoilers are floating around fast and loose and I don't want to hurt innocents. But let's just say Kirk has it on good authority to take command -- along with the intstructions on how to do it.

 

[The Wormhole]

People grow up. Nothing here is different, unless you are aware of something canonical about Kirk's personal character and behavior in his past that is covered in TOS that has been changed. If so, please tell us.

In Where No Man Has Gone Before Gary Mitchell describes Kirk as a duty-bound bookworm in his Academy days. It ahs always been implied that Kirk when he began his career took things very seriously and it was only later on, when he made captain when he loosened things up a little. This is even mentioned in Generations when Picard tries to lecture Kirk for supposedly neglecting his duties as a Starfleet officer. Kirk goes on "I was once like you. So blind by duty and obligation I couldn't see past my own uniform."

Kirk being a rebellious teenage delinquent on the run from an abusive druncle with cyborg cops following him while he starts fights at bars which serve Cardassian drinks for some reason flies in the face of everything canonically established about Kirk and simply doesn't sound like a particularly compelling story.

 

[ian_tee]

Build a bridge.

Seriously.

Stop bitching.

Don't watch the new film.

Let the rest of us enjoy it.

 

[datas_cat_spot]

Kirk also cheats on the Kobayashi Maru. He's always been a bit of a contridiction. A person who basically devotes his entire life to the mission while not always following orders given to him.

 

[Timo]

Of course, if he were a juvenile delinquent, odds are that the military would either turn him into an overachiever or then fail to make anything much of him. Since we know something did come out of him, it's only natural to think that he sobered up big time, probably exactly due to being treated as a tough nut to crack. A meek child mightn't have had the motivation and dedication.

All this may be treated as an altered timeline - but none of it is really at odds with the original timeline, either. Perhaps Nero's time tampering always happened to the Kirk we know?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cary L. Brown]

What irks me is that they are completely misrepresenting the character of Kirk.

Kirk in TOS is The Man. This is the guy who bangs alien chicks on a regular basis, who whups alien ass and takes names at the drop of a hat. Kirk in Trek XI is simply a scared boy dealing with being abused by a drunk uncle and lashing out at every authority figure.

Kirk in TOS did not have the timeline altered from 2.65 seconds after he was born. It seems to escape the grasp of every single "nitpicker" that there is a major timeline alteration which effectively changes "what you know". Abrams and company have not lied or evaded this point--they've been quite upfront about it.

Everybody knows this, I think... but the issue is "what's the point of telling this version of the story" if things are going to be "reset" at the end to be what we know? And if that's NOT what happens, then it's not just "a new take on Star Trek" but it's actually an active cancellation of the stuff we've all known for so long (that timeline no longer exists, after all, having been replaced by the "new" one).

Reset, or no reset? That is the question...

 

[BillJ]

Build a bridge.

Seriously.

Stop bitching.

Don't watch the new film.

Let the rest of us enjoy it.

Silly me... I thought the purpose of a forum was to discuss things. Since this doesn't come out til May 2009 we should probably close the forum.

 

[Ovation]

What irks me is that they are completely misrepresenting the character of Kirk.

Kirk in TOS is The Man. This is the guy who bangs alien chicks on a regular basis, who whups alien ass and takes names at the drop of a hat. Kirk in Trek XI is simply a scared boy dealing with being abused by a drunk uncle and lashing out at every authority figure.

Kirk in TOS did not have the timeline altered from 2.65 seconds after he was born. It seems to escape the grasp of every single "nitpicker" that there is a major timeline alteration which effectively changes "what you know". Abrams and company have not lied or evaded this point--they've been quite upfront about it.

Everybody knows this, I think... but the issue is "what's the point of telling this version of the story" if things are going to be "reset" at the end to be what we know? And if that's NOT what happens, then it's not just "a new take on Star Trek" but it's actually an active cancellation of the stuff we've all known for so long (that timeline no longer exists, after all, having been replaced by the "new" one).

Reset, or no reset? That is the question...

It will be answered in May. I'm prepared to wait. Are you?