Places of Exile is making me hate the Voth even more than I did. What a bunch of ignorant fucks. Then again I suppose that's the point.
And the "Delta Coalition"...
And the "Delta Coalition"...
SPOILER ALERT -- Review Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism
- Thread starter KingstonTrekker
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KingstonTrekker, please avoid proposing story ideas.
Sorry about that...I am new to the world of posting on TrekBBS.
Thanks for the reminder
Thanks for the reminder
But they *do* eventually find the Hirogen network. Not only that, they even use it to devise a real-time continuous link with home, which can be accessed via *holodecks*! And there's really no telling what happened to the Prometheus in the alternate timeline.
Still, though, the indications definitely seem to be that things are better in that timeline (and that the show itself would have been better if these events had happened onscreen):
- Janeway and crew form their 'coalition' in the DQ, who of course join the Federation itself in the end
- due to the magical, Hirogen-enhanced holosuites, Voyager not only never returns to the AQ, but doesn't even need to; Janeway, in this timeline, seems to cast doubts on her counterpart's *sanity* for daring to even want to go home
- Kes doesn't go crazy
- The Breen attack on San Francisco apparently never occurs, and the Dominion War ends earlier
- Janeway and Chakotay hook up (and have a kid), as do Neelix and Kes again (three)
- Seven of Nine isn't so Borgy as she is in the real timeline
- The Doctor has hundreds, perhaps thousands, of avatars, all over the place, and wonders how he could have ever functioned in the 'limited' way he was before
Look, if I'm way off base here, why don't you correct me? You WROTE it, after all. Is there some other reason why you made the alternate timeline out to be a better place than the original? Do you wish the show itself had done these things? In what way do you consider this timeline to be *worse* than the original (apart from the obvious, such as the deaths of Tuvok and Tom Paris)?
I mean no offense, but all things considered I definitely prefer the Janeway from the show: absolutely dedicated to getting her crew home. That was, and always should have been, her primary goal. I don't ever see her abandoning it, not even with deus ex machina technology that could make it *seem* like they were home.
*pause*
I'm sorry. Sometimes it's easy to forget that many of the same people who write these stories are also members here. I know it's bad form to criticize people's works while they're watching. But I can't ignore what I felt when reading these stories (excellent though they all are).
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Yeah, but not in time to save the Prometheus. And their loved ones back home have to wait another twenty months before finding out they're alive, and many of them have to mourn their loved ones all over again.
It's my timeline, so I can say what happened.
And I say that the Prometheus fell into Romulan hands and that a lot of Federation lives were lost as a result.Some things are better, some things are worse. Every alternative has its positive and negative consequences. Didn't you read the whole speech Chakotay gave about exactly that idea?
Technically, they only apply for Federation membership in the end.
What's "magical" about them? It's simply a matter of combining the established holocommunication principle from "For the Uniform" with the ancient relay network used by the Hirogen. There are no "Hirogen enhancements;" first off, the Hirogen, who are a bunch of nomadic hunters, obviously didn't build that ancient, advanced network, just found it and used it (I believe String Theory established that the Nacene built it). And second, its technology didn't provide any enhancement, just the range needed to reach a comm signal to the AQ. It's a very simple combination of two canonical technologies, with a little bit of telepresence help from the Vostigye networking protocols used by the Doctor.
She went through different experiences that gave her a different perspective on life. What's the point of telling an alternate-universe story if the characters retain the same beliefs? Is it any different from Kirk's beliefs in A Less Perfect Union or Kira's relationship with Dukat in Seeds of Dissent?
According to String Theory, she never did anyway.
The attack does occur, it's just successfully defended against. But there's more uncertainty about whether the Dominion might invade again, and the Klingon Empire is significantly worse off with Gowron still in charge, and Cardassia, while not as thoroughly devastated, is still being torn by civil war. Better in some ways, worse in others. Are you sensing the theme yet?
But B'Elanna never marries Tom and Miral is never born. Tuvok's wife and children have to mourn him, as does Joe Carey's wife and many other families. Megan Delaney has to live without her sister.
I didn't. I made it different. Good things happen that didn't before, but bad things happen that didn't before. And what about the good things in the main timeline that didn't occur here? Icheb, Mezoti, and the other Borg children were never freed from the Borg; nor were the rebels from "Unimatrix Zero." Indeed, they were all probably killed in the 8472 war. The Hirogen never got Voyager's holotechnology and the ability to grow beyond what they were. The "Night" aliens were never saved from the Malon's toxic waste. The Equinox crew probably went on killing aliens. Et cetera.
And why is there anything wrong with showing a timeline that's not uniformly worse than the original? Nobody ever said that this series was "Myriad Awful Universes." The idea is to explore different ways history could've unfolded; you were never told that they would all be dystopias. So I honestly don't understand why you think I need to justify the fact that this timeline isn't awful all around.
Hell, yes. That's the whole idea. This series gives us the freedom to tell the stories we think it would've been interesting to see. I think VGR wasted a lot of storytelling opportunities. But it's not just about fannish self-indulgence. It's about finding the stories that are interesting to explore. I was interested in exploring how Voyager could've made a positive difference in the Delta Quadrant if they'd stayed and chosen to contribute to it rather than running away from it; but I was also interested in exploring how the death of Tom would totally screw up B'Elanna's life, and how Janeway's psyche would be damaged by the crippling of her ship and the death of Tuvok, her most valued advisor, and by how much worse the Borg-8472 conflict could become if allowed to continue unchecked. Yes, a lot of things end up pretty positively in PoE, because I'm an upbeat kind of writer; but a lot of things have to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
Isn't that enough? There's also everything else I've already mentioned -- not to mention the fact that Species 8472 devastated half the quadrant over in the "Before and After" timeline.
But as I've said, it's missing the point to evaluate this solely in terms of "better" or "worse." I don't think any of us approached this in terms of "how do I create a better timeline" or "how do I create a worse timeline." We looked for branching points that could give us interesting timelines. Some are dystopias, but others are just different.
But Janeway did get her crew home. She just realized that their definition of "home" had changed, that they'd built a new home. The holotechnology was entirely incidental to that. That's why it was in the epilogue rather than the climax.
Besides... the overriding obsession with returning home was never what Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller intended the show or the Janeway character to be about. From the beginning, we were promised that VGR would not be Lost in Space, that it wouldn't be solely about searching for home; stranding the ship far from the Federation was instead meant to be a way to recapture a TOS style of storytelling, a captain and crew out on the frontier with no starbases or reinforcements to call on, forced to make big decisions all on their own. The longing for home was meant to subside within a season or so as this crew of inveterate explorers became more immersed in the wonders of the Delta Quadrant. Janeway was conceived as a scientist, someone who would put exploration first; the direction she ended up evolving in was not the one that was originally intended. For whatever reasons, the show itself ended up being exactly what we were told it would not become. I wanted to tell a story in the spirit of that original intention for the series.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But I do hope I've given you a clearer understanding of what my intent was -- and what it wasn't.
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I wonder if there was anyone on Voyager's crew who really *did* want to return to Earth, and if so, how would they react to being prevented from doing so.
Janeway really did want to return to Earth, and you were shown roughly two years' worth of her reactions to being prevented from doing so. They were "prevented" from returning home at the very start of the novel; the rest was learning to cope with that reality over the two years that followed.
Anyway, I did mention that the Coalition was doing research on high-speed drives. It's entirely possible that some means of travel between the Coalition and the Federation will be developed, especially if relations with the Voth continue to improve and the Coalition can obtain Voth transwarp tech.
EDIT: I've just put up the spoiler-filled annotations for Places of Exile on my website. In addition to the page-by-page notes, there's also a side-by-side comparison of events in the novel's featured timelines, as well as some discussion of other VGR timelines and why they didn't come into play. This may either clear some things up or make them even more confusing.
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doublegood
Fleet Captain
I greatly enjoyed the annotations. Nice work.
Ahhhhhhh, I think I see.
I haven't read the whole book yet so I can't offer a complete review, but I just finished Places Of Exile, having read that first, and after complaining about Greater Than The Sum I'm really happy to say that I loved this one a lot.
And this is why. I always thought that a lot of the appeal of the Mirror Universe was in its interactions with the real one, allowing them to bounce off each other, inform each other's existences. I imagined most of the MyrU stories would stand alone, but I was hoping someone would tie theirs back into the main timeline in a Mirror Universe sort of way (that is, not as an alternate future to be destroyed, like many ST episodes, but as a timeline that continues but interacts with the main one, even if only slightly).
Places Of Exile becomes a commentary on the timeline depicted onscreen as well as using that timeline as a commentary on itself, and ties the whole thing into a much larger point about choice and ramification (rather like GTTS tied everything into a larger point about family, which I did appreciate). And having loved so much the comprehensive worldbuilding / subtle plot hole filling from Ex Machina and The Buried Age, I was thrilled that there was more of that here; this addressed a lot of huge Voyager plot holes despite being set in another universe entirely, and between this, Distant Shores, and String Theory, I think the show stands as a much more interesting story than it did when I'd just seen the episodes.
But even apart from the greater meanings and complex worldbuilding, this story did just about everything I always wished Voyager would do but didn't - killed a main character and had it genuinely impact others' lives, had the ship so damaged it was unable to continue on its own, thoughtfully explored what Federation ideals might mean in the Delta Quadrant, and actually followed up on a lot of the fascinating story threads that Voyager left dangling. And of course the characterizations were absolutely perfect, as usual. I especially enjoyed Torres and Kim, and Chakotay finally becoming a useful and interesting character, which I feel he never was on the show.
Having read the annotations, I too wish that it could've been longer. This would've made an even more dynamite novel at twice the length or longer; so many great ideas. Bravo, all around.
And this is why. I always thought that a lot of the appeal of the Mirror Universe was in its interactions with the real one, allowing them to bounce off each other, inform each other's existences. I imagined most of the MyrU stories would stand alone, but I was hoping someone would tie theirs back into the main timeline in a Mirror Universe sort of way (that is, not as an alternate future to be destroyed, like many ST episodes, but as a timeline that continues but interacts with the main one, even if only slightly).
Places Of Exile becomes a commentary on the timeline depicted onscreen as well as using that timeline as a commentary on itself, and ties the whole thing into a much larger point about choice and ramification (rather like GTTS tied everything into a larger point about family, which I did appreciate). And having loved so much the comprehensive worldbuilding / subtle plot hole filling from Ex Machina and The Buried Age, I was thrilled that there was more of that here; this addressed a lot of huge Voyager plot holes despite being set in another universe entirely, and between this, Distant Shores, and String Theory, I think the show stands as a much more interesting story than it did when I'd just seen the episodes.
But even apart from the greater meanings and complex worldbuilding, this story did just about everything I always wished Voyager would do but didn't - killed a main character and had it genuinely impact others' lives, had the ship so damaged it was unable to continue on its own, thoughtfully explored what Federation ideals might mean in the Delta Quadrant, and actually followed up on a lot of the fascinating story threads that Voyager left dangling. And of course the characterizations were absolutely perfect, as usual. I especially enjoyed Torres and Kim, and Chakotay finally becoming a useful and interesting character, which I feel he never was on the show.
Having read the annotations, I too wish that it could've been longer. This would've made an even more dynamite novel at twice the length or longer; so many great ideas. Bravo, all around.
^^Thank you! That's really nice to hear. And yeah, it was fun (and weird) to get to use this alternate-timeline story as a chance to resolve some threads from the main timeline, specifically "Whatever happened to Species 8472 after 'In the Flesh'?"
I think one reason I wanted to do that was to underline the idea that these aren't just "imaginary stories," but are meant to be things that "really" happen in alternate time tracks of the Trek universe. At least, that's what I understood the intent to be and how I approached it in PoE.
I think one reason I wanted to do that was to underline the idea that these aren't just "imaginary stories," but are meant to be things that "really" happen in alternate time tracks of the Trek universe. At least, that's what I understood the intent to be and how I approached it in PoE.
If VOY had followed the premise laid out in Christopher's story, I believe it would have made a hell of a series.
You could basically tell the story of the building of the Federation, without telling the literal story of building the Federation, by showing the growth of the 'Delta Coalition' (Didn't Tony Orlando front that group in the mid-70s?). In so doing, avoid all this prequel focus that has gone on since VOY left the scene.
You could basically tell the story of the building of the Federation, without telling the literal story of building the Federation, by showing the growth of the 'Delta Coalition' (Didn't Tony Orlando front that group in the mid-70s?). In so doing, avoid all this prequel focus that has gone on since VOY left the scene.
Just finished reading A Less Perfect Union and I thought it was great. A compelling and well-told story that really did show what was supposed to be a major theme in Enterprise, the formation of the Federation. The altered yet still-true-to-form takes on Pike, Kirk, McCoy, T'Pol and others was also well-done. As was the depiction of Starfleet like in this altered universe. Having Sarek interact with Mark Lenard's other character, the Romulan Commander from BOT, was brilliant. I would love to see other stories from this particular alternate universe.
Well done, Mr. Leisner!
Well done, Mr. Leisner!
Thank you!
I finished reading this a couple days ago, and I heartily enjoyed all of them. I haven't seen the episodes that 'A Less Perfect Union' borrowed from, so the whole story seemed new -and very compelling- to me. I've read a fair bit of Harry Turtledove, but didn't notice any specific nods to it... Any hints?
I really enjoyed Places of Exile, especially when it really started tying in to the on-screen Voyager story. Definitely wasn't expecting it, and it impressed me a lot. I described it to my non-Trek watching/reading friend, and he was thoroughly impressed himself.
Also really enjoyed 'Seeds of Dissent'. Loved the ambiguous ending. In my head, I'm pretty damn sure Bashir did the right thing. Don't know how long he lived afterwards though... Picard is still on his way, and I doubt he'll be forgiving.
The important part for me was that every story had a moment where I sat back and said 'wow' to myself. That's the real clincher for me, in deciding if it was a great book. And in this book, I did it at least three times.
I really enjoyed Places of Exile, especially when it really started tying in to the on-screen Voyager story. Definitely wasn't expecting it, and it impressed me a lot. I described it to my non-Trek watching/reading friend, and he was thoroughly impressed himself.
Also really enjoyed 'Seeds of Dissent'. Loved the ambiguous ending. In my head, I'm pretty damn sure Bashir did the right thing. Don't know how long he lived afterwards though... Picard is still on his way, and I doubt he'll be forgiving.
The important part for me was that every story had a moment where I sat back and said 'wow' to myself. That's the real clincher for me, in deciding if it was a great book. And in this book, I did it at least three times.
I'm quite glad to hear this, since I know I was writing a real "fanboy" story here. The fact that it still works for those who haven't seen as much Trek as I have is good to hear.
There were two: one vague, and the other very vague.
The vague one was the reference to Yeoman Rhoodie on page 107, who was named after the time-travelling weapons dealer in Guns of the South. The very vague one was the short green lizard with the red comb mentioned on page 17 -- intended to look a bit like these guys.
I finished 'Infinity's Prism' this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it. I find alternate history stories incredibly intriguing, if only to see how the events that we see depicted on screen could have turned out differently and the subsequent effects that would have had.
There is something that nags at me in the back of my mind, though because it's a fictional device and it makes the stories a *lot* more interesting it's just something I thought about, rather than which detracted from my enjoyment of the stories in any way, and that's that in 'A Less Perfect Union' and 'Seeds of Dissent' the characters we know probably wouldn't exist because the timeline divergence is so far in the past.
The conception of a specific individual is a product of a trillion trillion specific choices being made in a certain way. Change one of those decisions and the more the choices that are made the further the decisions will diverge from the original strand. The changes that occur around you increase exponentially from the point of divergence. For example (and see one of the recent Doctor Who episodes for a good indication) turn left and you'll be faced with a certain chain of decisions, turn right and the set of decisions and the effect they have on the world around you diverge very, very quickly.
Therefore, if Khan won the Eugenics Wars in the early 21st century, Julian Bashir, Miles O'Brien, Ezri Dax, Jake Sisko etc. etc. etc. would not exist in the mid-late 24th. Their births were partially determined by the major historical events of the world around them, as that led people to meet, who fell in love, who had kids, who might not have done so without a specific chain of events leading them to that meeting. To say that Richard Bashir and his wife would even exist to meet and produce a child that looked like the Julian Bashir we know is a crazy improbability. For all those other characters to exist as well - the chances are so small as to almost be zero.
BUT - that aside, they are *awesome* stories. I personally, particularly liked 'Places of Exile.' Something Voyager could not do, a flaw partially forced upon it by its premise (a ship always on the move and never returning to one specific point) was follow up on a lot of the stories and establish much history with specific races (except for the Borg) as they would never return to that place. I also particularly liked following up on the Caretaker refugees, and the inclusion of a Vorta was a nice change-up for a Voyager story. This story had an emotional impact that I felt the show was a little too tentative with, and it shows that Voyager could have been capable of a lot more, no matter how much I enjoyed it week to week.
There is something that nags at me in the back of my mind, though because it's a fictional device and it makes the stories a *lot* more interesting it's just something I thought about, rather than which detracted from my enjoyment of the stories in any way, and that's that in 'A Less Perfect Union' and 'Seeds of Dissent' the characters we know probably wouldn't exist because the timeline divergence is so far in the past.
The conception of a specific individual is a product of a trillion trillion specific choices being made in a certain way. Change one of those decisions and the more the choices that are made the further the decisions will diverge from the original strand. The changes that occur around you increase exponentially from the point of divergence. For example (and see one of the recent Doctor Who episodes for a good indication) turn left and you'll be faced with a certain chain of decisions, turn right and the set of decisions and the effect they have on the world around you diverge very, very quickly.
Therefore, if Khan won the Eugenics Wars in the early 21st century, Julian Bashir, Miles O'Brien, Ezri Dax, Jake Sisko etc. etc. etc. would not exist in the mid-late 24th. Their births were partially determined by the major historical events of the world around them, as that led people to meet, who fell in love, who had kids, who might not have done so without a specific chain of events leading them to that meeting. To say that Richard Bashir and his wife would even exist to meet and produce a child that looked like the Julian Bashir we know is a crazy improbability. For all those other characters to exist as well - the chances are so small as to almost be zero.
BUT - that aside, they are *awesome* stories. I personally, particularly liked 'Places of Exile.' Something Voyager could not do, a flaw partially forced upon it by its premise (a ship always on the move and never returning to one specific point) was follow up on a lot of the stories and establish much history with specific races (except for the Borg) as they would never return to that place. I also particularly liked following up on the Caretaker refugees, and the inclusion of a Vorta was a nice change-up for a Voyager story. This story had an emotional impact that I felt the show was a little too tentative with, and it shows that Voyager could have been capable of a lot more, no matter how much I enjoyed it week to week.
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