Spock's ESP didn't trigger an effect in WNMHGB

[Timo]

It does prompt the thought, that wasn't broached, as to why the Valiant's captain would have taken on such an unknowable risk, especially as he was not ordered to do so?

Dialogue suggests that forces of nature swept the Valiant not merely to the edges of the galaxy, but actually past the Barrier. The captain then only had to choose whether to try to get through the Barrier to reach home, or to stay outside the galaxy forever. An easy choice, I gather, especially as he quite possibly had no idea the Barrier posed any dangers (whatever damage it did to the Valiant on the way out might have been attributed to the original "magnetic storm").

Their presence in my vision was to provide backup assistance in evaluating this unknown realm through the provision of enhanced scanning and/or probing capabilities to be used prior to the entry being undertaken, so as to allow the most complete picture possible of what Enterprise was to encounter.

We now know that observing the passage of the point ship would have been futile, as the Barrier blocks communications and sensing. Would Starfleet have known that much? I must argue that it would have. Our heroes are not observably surprised by the existence of the Barrier - their mission appears to be to brave this previously carefully recorded phenomenon. This would be consistent with a gradual and extensive exploration effort wherein first the Barrier is stumbled upon, then probed, then found difficult to understand and impossible to study via sensors and probes, and the infrastructure then is established to allow a starship to attempt the next step in the meticulous process.

Can you provide any examples of that sort of time frame being devoted to any particular venture we are aware of in the TOS continuity?

Well, all of them - no research project in TOS is indicated to be short-term. Some are merely lifelong exercises for the researchers involved (say, Korby's studies), but others might equally well involve generations of researchers.

The Enterprise herself apparently took ages to "complete" - she's several decades old by the time of the TOS adventures, yet her engine designer is a youthful man still, and then the ship continues to evolve through TMP to the final ST2/3 form. Why halt any project at a couple of decades already?

First they are going home, presumably to have their descendants report on the suitability of the Milky Way for conquest. What relevance would Starfleet vessels being able to weather the challenges of the Barrier have on such plans?

Every possible relevance, of course. The heroes would hope to stop the voyage home, and two ways to do that would be to a) tell the Kelvans that the ship is not up to the task, and b) not tell them that. That the issue doesn't arise and the ship still survives means our heroes made neither of the above efforts...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drone]

Dialogue suggests that forces of nature swept the Valiant not merely to the edges of the galaxy, but actually past the Barrier. The captain then only had to choose whether to try to get through the Barrier to reach home, or to stay outside the galaxy forever. An easy choice, I gather, especially as he quite possibly had no idea the Barrier posed any dangers (whatever damage it did to the Valiant on the way out might have been attributed to the original "magnetic storm").Timo Saloniemi

Quite right, my second failed memory of the Valiant narrative. Perhaps time for a visit to my friendly neurologist!!!!

We now know that observing the passage of the point ship would have been futile, as the Barrier blocks communications and sensing. Would Starfleet have known that much? I must argue that it would have. Our heroes are not observably surprised by the existence of the Barrier - their mission appears to be to brave this previously carefully recorded phenomenon. This would be consistent with a gradual and extensive exploration effort wherein first the Barrier is stumbled upon, then probed, then found difficult to understand and impossible to study via sensors and probes, and the infrastructure then is established to allow a starship to attempt the next step in the meticulous process.Timo Saloniemi

I would still submit that having at least one other vessel present, would have the potential to preserve vital information about the ship's fate if it didn't survive the attempt. Perhaps, as a part of the programme, the starship entering the Barrier would be directed to launch probes back into the galaxy, presumably until their safe return, that could yield important telemetric data about what the ship was enduring. This procedure could also simply verify their survival. It's possible a consequence of the attempt might be getting swept into the void and then discovering that a return from the other side of the Barrier is impossible. Rather than Starfleet simply postulating about the ship's fate, something a bit more definitive could be provided by the presence of this eyewitness support ship. You also didn't address the point I proffered regarding the potentially life saving reality that such an accompanying craft could render to a critically damaged starship that was just able to make its way back to the galaxy, but might be so seriously compromised, that an attempt to reach even Delta Vega would become insuperable.

Every possible relevance, of course. The heroes would hope to stop the voyage home, and two ways to do that would be to a) tell the Kelvans that the ship is not up to the task, and b) not tell them that. That the issue doesn't arise and the ship still survives means our heroes made neither of the above efforts...
Timo Saloniemi

I may be misunderstanding your construction here, but as you made the following comment a short while back, I don't recognize the relevance to the Kelvans that Starfleet has developed a capability that they would already be aware of owing to their having installed their own device to deal with the issue, which almost certainly would have allowed them to observe and understand such a potentiality. Even if the Kelvans had simply overlooked or failed to notice that capability if it were present, what difference would it make? These considerations would realistically carry no weight in a possible future conflict that wouldn't even take place for at least 600 years, so I think any current conditions of instrumentality would long since ceased to carry any weight or meaning.

However, since the context is there, it's curious that the risk of Mitchellification is not mentioned at all - especially in episodes that otherwise already deal with madness and supernatural powers, after a fashion. Which makes it attractive to think that our heroes believed in protection in advance already. But certainly not necessary, and I agree that Kelvan protective measures are a likely explanation in the first episode, even though they may not have been retained for the second.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Rather than Starfleet simply postulating about the ship's fate, something a bit more definitive could be provided by the presence of this eyewitness support ship.

Probably so. And the evidence is divided on whether sending even one ship to the Barrier would be a massive effort, or a fairly mundane one.

On one hand,

- Starfleet does send but one ship
- The region has not been properly studied in the past 200 years of Earth warp flight
- Kirk has no immediate assistance available after being stranded; nobody even attempts communications with home base or nearby ships, nor makes mention that comms would be out
- What Kirk does have is an automated base that very curiously seems ideal for his needs in every respect, be it location or standard of equip, suggesting massive and gradual rather than lean and mean support effort

On the other hand,

- Kirk's ship reached the Barrier so fast that a specialist embarked on the Aldebaran Colony had not yet met Kirk face to face
- Bases other than Delta Vega were only days away at warp
- Starfleet knows about the Barrier, or at least indicates no surprise or lack of knowledge; even Spock's analysis of the phenomenon (all readings negative) might only be confirming what little is already known
- Later voyages to the Barrier are no big deal

Perhaps this mixture of evidence is for the better, as Starfleet itself would have been undecided on how to proceed. The supply chain would be built to support future exploration, but OTOH there would be no hurry to get results since the project would in any case exceed the patience of selfish politicians and thus be driven by more enlightened forces. And probing with one expendable starship commanded by one expendable junior upstart would be deemed affordable, while sending two such ships would be excessive for whatever extra data could be gained.

I don't recognize the relevance to the Kelvans that Starfleet has developed a capability that they would already be aware of owing to their having installed their own device to deal with the issue

The question is one of hero dialogue. The supposed lethality of the barrier is important to them as a means of stopping the Kelvans. If the Kelvans make no mention of this issue, the heroes can suspect the Kelvans know how to protect themselves now. Or they can suspect the Kelvans will simply brave the barrier, accepting 50% fatalities out as well as in. Either way, it would be important for the humans to know whether they themselves will die, or perhaps become gods capable of thwarting the Kelvans. If they have indigenous protection, they should discuss disabling it; if they lack protection, they should worry about the consequences to themselves, and thus to the overall strategic situation which hinges on what happens to Rojan's scouting party.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drone]

Probably so. And the evidence is divided on whether sending even one ship to the Barrier would be a massive effort, or a fairly mundane one.

On one hand,

- Starfleet does send but one ship
- The region has not been properly studied in the past 200 years of Earth warp flight
- Kirk has no immediate assistance available after being stranded; nobody even attempts communications with home base or nearby ships, nor makes mention that comms would be out
- What Kirk does have is an automated base that very curiously seems ideal for his needs in every respect, be it location or standard of equip, suggesting massive and gradual rather than lean and mean support effort

On the other hand,

- Kirk's ship reached the Barrier so fast that a specialist embarked on the Aldebaran Colony had not yet met Kirk face to face
- Bases other than Delta Vega were only days away at warp
- Starfleet knows about the Barrier, or at least indicates no surprise or lack of knowledge; even Spock's analysis of the phenomenon (all readings negative) might only be confirming what little is already known
- Later voyages to the Barrier are no big deal

Perhaps this mixture of evidence is for the better, as Starfleet itself would have been undecided on how to proceed. The supply chain would be built to support future exploration, but OTOH there would be no hurry to get results since the project would in any case exceed the patience of selfish politicians and thus be driven by more enlightened forces. And probing with one expendable starship commanded by one expendable junior upstart would be deemed affordable, while sending two such ships would be excessive for whatever extra data could be gained.



The question is one of hero dialogue. The supposed lethality of the barrier is important to them as a means of stopping the Kelvans. If the Kelvans make no mention of this issue, the heroes can suspect the Kelvans know how to protect themselves now. Or they can suspect the Kelvans will simply brave the barrier, accepting 50% fatalities out as well as in. Either way, it would be important for the humans to know whether they themselves will die, or perhaps become gods capable of thwarting the Kelvans. If they have indigenous protection, they should discuss disabling it; if they lack protection, they should worry about the consequences to themselves, and thus to the overall strategic situation which hinges on what happens to Rojan's scouting party.

Timo Saloniemi

I find your arguments here to be well thought out and amenable to the variability in which such scenarios could have conceivably played out. One thing that I wonder about is the line I have bolded. I know that you are merely listing supporting factors that can support differently oriented contentions. However, just as a point of fact, I'm wondering if this statement does correspond with history as we have seen it in canon. In the following segment from a recent post of yours, while you're also addressing another factor, I think that it also references any other mentioned contacts with the Barrier by other Starfleet vessels. Is there a contradiction that you might address, or might I simply be reading this incorrectly? In either case, what are other instances that such entry or contact with the Barrier is mentioned as having taken place in any of the other series?

But only in appropriate context, as we well know that our heroes don't idly mention anything, not even the existence of UFP arch-enemies or a state of declared war. And there are only two episodes with the appropriate context. "By Any Other Name" comes first, and there our heroes are actually unlikely to bring up progress in protection, as that would give their enemies too much of an advantage. "In Truth" in turn is a bit too fast-paced for any discussion on protection, and if our heroes notice they have survived the passage just fine, there's little point in further discussion...[\QUOTE]

 

[Timo]

The bolded line is there to indicate that our heroes rather routinely and without ado travel to the Barrier, even if they don't voluntarily brave it. There is reason to disbelieve in massive logistics being needed for Barrier exploration if Kirk at the start of "By Any Other Name" is idly surveying a planet that clearly is right next door to the Barrier (that is, within a Kelvan lifeboat range of it), or if his journey from the UFP to Medusan space* in "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" brings him so close to the Barrier that mere minutes off course whisk the ship outside the galaxy.

From Kirk's dialogue in "Name", I'd infer he hasn't personally braved the Barrier since his first encounter. But he is operating his ship in Barrier territory nevertheless. Yes, that's "virgin" territory in all likelihood, and UFP presence there is thin, but we still have proof that it doesn't take a massive logistics effort to get a single exploration ship there. So another could have been sent, too, to support your proposed multi-ship approach to "Where No Man".

Then again, here Kirk is just surveying a planet that emanates a distress call. In "Where No Man", he's opening a path for future exploration. So the infrastructure that includes Delta Vega might still be vital to his mission and its follow-ons into intergalactic space, even though he can manage without when just exploring the Milky Way side of things.

Timo Saloniemi

* What they aim at isn't Medusan space in the end, but just a rendezvous with a Medusan ship. For all we know, Medusans live beyond the Barrier, or indeed are creatures of the Barrier, and the "spacetime continuum" color show in "Beauty" is to some degree Kollos' own doing, a piece of the Barrier he carries within himself...

 

[FormerLurker]

I'm still wondering why everyone is still speculating that they're going to the barrier at the limits of the disc of the galaxy. The Milky Way and Andromeda aren't oriented toward each other edge to edge, are they? Enterprise could be going galactic "up" to get to the barrier, especially in "By Any Other Name", where they encounter an extra-galactic species that entered our galaxy on presumably a straight line from theirs. And that trip is potentially thousands of times shorter in distance and duration.

 

[Timo]

Moreover, there is no reason to think that this utterly fictional phenomenon would be hugging the "top" or "bottom" surface of the galactic disk, either. After all, there is no "galactic disk" in the first place - it's an oversimplification in picture books for ages three to five. We have no idea where this fictional Barrier actually lies, except that it defines the "galaxy edge" (Starfleet terminology from "Where No Man" and "By Any Other Name"), or the "rim of the galaxy" (Kelvan terminology from "By Any Other Name"). If the Barrier existed between Earth and Mars, then that would define the edge of the galaxy, as everything on the other side would be "outside", inaccessible to Earthlings!

Now, we don't want to put the Barrier between Earth and Mars, or between Earth and any location our heroes visited, the last two specific Barrier episodes notwithstanding. But beyond that, we can put the Barrier anywhere we feel it convenient. It could hug each galactic arm like a glove, say (but the Janeway might have harder time getting home). Or it could form a perfectly symmetric discus shape around the brighter parts of the Milky Way. Or it could be shaped exactly like a jackalope head for all we care.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

I rather like the idea of delta Bega being there as a support post near the galactic barrier, especially given the proximity of the enterprises point of entry. Bear in mind she could have entered at any point for light years around but chose there. Granted there would have been a limited radius of practical options given the practicality of travel time and distance from the federation proper, but the virtual spitting distances involved would suggest a degree of forethought. That does not necessarily mean it was specifically part of a programme to investigate the barrier specifically, however, I'm rather fond of the idea that starfleets would have seen the sense in placing support facilities in little explored remote regions ahead of more extensive deployment. Starfleets on long duration missions may well have the capacity in theory to remain on station for years but it would be sensible to not make too many assumptions with such valuable assets. We have seen the like elsewhere with subspace listening posts, deep space stations, communications relays, long range probes, all means to smooth out the exploration process and allow vessels to work within a functioning infrastructure wherever possible. OTOH as timo rightly states, pretty much all starfleets operations ate long term investments, it's just that we watch our heroes adventures in an episodic fashion designed for dramatic effect. The long term strategic and logistic support efforts largely remain in the background as it's hard to see how they would merit being called entertainment.
That being said, it really is difficult to reconcile that level of forethought and planning with the somewhat haphazard method of approach seen in the episode. Why deploy a starship to enter the barrier without some backup means of recording that attempt? If that vessel represents possibly a twelfth of starfleets capital ships then surely the deployment of an additional science vessel to monitor the
attempt would make the potential loss worth while?

 

[Timo]

Much depends on how much Starfleet already knew about the properties of the Barrier. The fact that communications can't penetrate it does not appear to come as news to our heroes in "Name"; the fact that sensors say "negative" to just about every property Spock cares to study does not need to be a surprise, either. The use of standoff recording systems might have been ruled out by Starfleet long before Kirk's mission, then.

We might compare this to Starfleet's attempts to penetrate the Great Barrier, the one inward of the UFP towards the galactic core. That thing ate probes like no tomorrow, but was harmless to starships in the end. Did Starfleet perhaps exert wholly undue caution there, equating inability to communicate with inability to survive?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Drone]

Moreover, there is no reason to think that this utterly fictional phenomenon would be hugging the "top" or "bottom" surface of the galactic disk, either. After all, there is no "galactic disk" in the first place - it's an oversimplification in picture books for ages three to five. We have no idea where this fictional Barrier actually lies, except that it defines the "galaxy edge" (Starfleet terminology from "Where No Man" and "By Any Other Name"), or the "rim of the galaxy" (Kelvan terminology from "By Any Other Name"). If the Barrier existed between Earth and Mars, then that would define the edge of the galaxy, as everything on the other side would be "outside", inaccessible to Earthlings!

Now, we don't want to put the Barrier between Earth and Mars, or between Earth and any location our heroes visited, the last two specific Barrier episodes notwithstanding. But beyond that, we can put the Barrier anywhere we feel it convenient. It could hug each galactic arm like a glove, say (but the Janeway might have harder time getting home). Or it could form a perfectly symmetric discus shape around the brighter parts of the Milky Way. Or it could be shaped exactly like a jackalope head for all we care.
Timo Saloniemi

I think I may be pushing my ignorance of so much Trek content too much to the front here, but your mention of the Barrier being in the solar system, prodded a memory of the Continuum basically doing such a thing in Voyager era Trek that limited Earth based Starfleet from traveling any further than the confines of the solar system or perhaps even further in. I think this scenario postulated that Earth's population consequently reached into the trillions, and life was pretty miserable all the way around. I don't think I'm imagining this. The question;: which novel depicted this scenario, and as a fillip, what is its critical reputation? Of course, as an added level of embarrassment I might be plumbing, perhaps said book was written by one of our resident scribes. (merits multiple facepalms!!!)

 

[Spot261]

Was it the Q continuum books? It's been a long time since I read them.