Well, Kirk wasn't worried about his ESPers this time around because Spock was the only one not turned into a paperweight when they went through, and he knew Spock could take it.
Spock's ESP didn't trigger an effect in WNMHGB
- Thread starter JimZipCode
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I heard an interesting theory that Spock was undergoing Pon Farr at the Time. The math does add up, Menagerie does say it was 13 years ago. If it took place about a year before "Amok Time" I would add up to be two cycles of Pon Farr. The funny thing is one could support the idea that he may have been under Pon Farr when he first met Ms. Kalomi.Spock was funny in this episode...the eyebrows, the bangs, the shouting of "THE WOMEN!!!"
Didn't that happen in one of the 80s or 90s TOS-crew comic books?
That's a neat theory, but "Amok Time" is obviously the first Pon Farr that Spock has gone through ("I'd hoped I would be spared this, but the ancient drives are too strong..."). I've heard it theorized that Spock was "experimenting" with human emotions around the time of "The Cage" and that could explain it, too.
I did once read a TOS chronology that suggested that Spock was unconsciously suppressing his Pon Farr when he first met Leila Kalomi, though, and that he was exerting some pheromones that enhanced his appeal to her. I think that Spock was suppressing one or two Pon Farrs because of his distaste of T'Pring. And that lines up with the regenerated Spock on Genesis undergoing Pon Farr at around age 17 - that's when it would've occurred to TOS Spock without any outside emotional factors.
Works for me, anyway.
Yes, it happened in the DC comic book where Saavik underwent Pon Farr, leading into the STIII adaptation. The Romulans put several people through the barrier to gain enhanced abilities. And the Enterprise going through the galactic barrier again nicely explains why the ship had increased damage at the beginning of TSFS.
You don't think paperweights with divine powers would be scary? See what they can do to your toes without any sort of powers at all!
Or then the first two times were mild enough that Spock could pretend he had been spared... Suppression there might have been through great conscious effort, or then a subconscious thing.
But one would expect Vulcan facades to crack all the time anyway, with Spock being in a particularly difficult jam because of his weak blood, lack of support from the Vulcan community, and constant exposure to the public without any sort of privacy due to his military career and the five-year deep space assignment. Things might have been bad back in "The Cage" already, with "experimenting with emotions" basically meaning "almost going insane from failing to cope".
Timo Saloniemi
Possible, but I prefer to take Spock at his word. Since the whole scene where we first learn about Pon Farr is about Spock finally coming clean with Kirk, I prefer it if Spock isn't consciously choosing to lie about something else. Seems to go against the spirit of the scene.
Depends on what Spock is thought of as saying. He declares "I hoped I would be spared this", which requires us to define "this". And there's plenty to choose from:
- the need to go to Vulcan (he didn't go there the putative previous times)
- the need to marry T'Pring (ditto)
- the humiliation of revealing this to Kirk (ditto)
- the going criminal and giving false orders to helm thing (ditto, although he didn't get spared that in "The Menagerie")
Timo Saloniemi
Doesn't the "...but the ancient drives are too strong" ending of that sentence make it pretty clear that Spock's talking about Pon Farr itself? I doubt that most Vulcans have ancient drives about coming clean to Captain Kirk or giving false orders to the helm. Those sound unusually specific for a biological imperative.
The ancient drives being too strong is exactly why Spock would be forced to humiliate himself with the revelation, or go criminal, etc. Were the drives weaker, Spock could stay quiet once more and just pretend he has a space flu or whatever.
(Going back a few posts, I hope I didn't create the impression that I'd think Spock was "pretending" anything in "Amok Time". I meant he would have pretended all was fine the past couple of times the mild pon farr happened to him. But then it got worse, and had consequences that Spock had hoped would never emerge.)
Timo Saloniemi
(Going back a few posts, I hope I didn't create the impression that I'd think Spock was "pretending" anything in "Amok Time". I meant he would have pretended all was fine the past couple of times the mild pon farr happened to him. But then it got worse, and had consequences that Spock had hoped would never emerge.)
Timo Saloniemi
Maybe Spock was like some of those women who thought they had an orgasm up until they had a real one. Then it's, "Oooooh, so THAT'S what it's like."
I would think they would be on record because he's a member of Starfleet. Are you suggesting that Vulcans get an exemption from having to be required to have the same physical and mental tests and exercises that human members are required to go through? Why? As a carryover from their prominent role in helping Earth to the stars, would there be some agreement that either corporately or individually, they could choose to opt out of such tests and potentially place ship at risk due to forced lack of knowledge that could be either existentially helpful or dangerous? It doesn't make much sense.
While no doubt a signal event up to the time in the exploration of the cosmos, I would hardly call Starfleet's investment very exceptional. Why, if they at least knew that a previous ship, albeit an antiquated one, never returned from the attempt, would they not send any support vessels along with Enterprise, to potentially be of assistance if it were needed, or at the least be present to document how the attempt played out. Otherwise, Starfleet would seem pretty stupid if they lost this rare asset and still had no idea of the explicit reasons for why such a disaster occurred. Also, Starfleet didn't make the final decision to proceed, the Rookie foolishly and peremptorily did, despite obvious reasons to at least take some initial steps that wouldn't needlessly have exposed his crew to danger.
As for Delta Vega having a dual purpose, there's no substantive or plausible support for that contention. It had been there for at least twenty years, most likely considerably longer as there's no suggestion at all that it's a recently built facility. I don't see the virtue in having such a barren planet be designed as much of a safe harbor, as such, unless Starfleet had an assumption that any ship sent to test the Barrier would wind up crippled and needing such a location becoming available, to remaining viable at all.
Now, various countermeasures might have been implemented or planned to shield a starship from those kind of depredations Enterprise suffreed. Yet, even if attempted by another ship in the Fleet, one would suspect that such efforts were subsequently undertaken, certainaly successful ones, it would be mentioned, if only in passing due to its great significance. But no, no indication that any such planned attempts were undertaken by any other Constitution class vessel. Rather than taking blind stabs in the dark, that such improvements were readily at hand, just waiting to be implemented, it seems much more likely that crossing with no incidence in By any Other Name, was simply a function of the modifications that the Kelvans made to the ship in general. Given their intellectual abilities, it might not have proved much of a trial for them to have been able to quickly analyze the impacts that the Barrier had on their own ship and easily manipulate elements to allow a much less sophisticated and complex vessel to be safe in making the sojourn. As far as In Truth is concerned, I'm of the belief that we don't really know what realm the ship entered and the characteristics there, may have presented considerably different and less immediately lethal consequences.
I find that eventuality possible, but not likely. We know that the two individuals who survived their encounters, wound up developing, and quickly as well, into psychotic, power crazed beings, who no longer felt constrained by mortal constructs, morals, or sensibilities of any kind. They basically cut themselves off from any identification with their species. Dehner, while naturally prone to be much more contemplative about the impacts that were finally occurring to her, seemed as fascinated by the implications of her new abilities and Mitchell's display of them, as Mitchell had earlier in his evolution. I think that the enhancements to the mind of a human effected, were far too powerful to process, willingly limit, and eventually placidly control.
As I see it, Kirk was simply fortunate to have made his final stand when he did. With much more time going by, whatever mortal connection Dehner still had, would likely have been equally lost to her new world and she would have joined Mitchell to wreak havoc.
Yes - as it doesn't seem possible to explain either "Dagger of the Mind" or "Amok Time" any other way. Or we might modify this by suggesting that Spock personally gets the exemption, perhaps being entitled to sail with a crew that is deliberately kept in the dark even when higher-ups in Starfleet know most of the facts. Or something on that vein. Ignorance won't cut it, though - deliberate cover-up is part and parcel of the acceptable rationalizations.
It doesn't. But Starfleet in TNG is inclusive to a fault - perhaps the only way to secure PR triumphs such as a Klingon, an Android or an Ambassador's progeny joining Starfleet is to give them exceptional leeway, and perhaps the only way to truly promote galactic peace is to secure those PR triumphs?
Me neither. But I'd certainly call it exceptional.
But they did not. Kirk's expedition was the first Starfleet (or any Earth organization) ever mounted - the Valiant sortie was an accident history books did not record.
I don't see how a sister ship would have helped. Within the Barrier, the starship is alone, and pretty helpless. Supposedly, communications are blocked, too, including advanced Kelvan ones. A wingman would simply add to Starfleet's losses, or then fail to add to knowledge gained.
A single starship is what Starfleet assigns to most tasks, including the impossible ones. Starship commanders seem to have been indoctrinated into favoring this, too (veteran skipper Decker also dismisses the concept of reinforcements). Yet assigning as starship is still often the last step taken, so that our heroes can be preceded to danger and doom by expendable characters.
What seems exceptional about the Barrier expedition is that Kirk is the incredible coincidence of Delta Vega being there. So let's study that one a bit more.
The place is a safe harbor - its builders have long since departed, and only robots now visit the place, yet it is stocked with a holding cell and a dispensary! Such a "Last Chance Saloon" facility would be essential for surveying extragalactic space, since appaprently there is nothing else there anywhere near the Barrier. Otherwise, evidence on what the Barrier does to curious ships would already exist aplenty!
I agree that Delta Vega is decades old. That gives Starfleet's effort all the more gravitas, as this apparent chain of supply depots has been prepared well in advance of the actual expedition and the exploitation that is supposed to follow.
But no, Delta Vega doesn't need to have a "dual" purpose - its sole purpose may be expedition supply. It's a place where ore ships bring ore, but as far as we can tell, nobody ever takes anything out of the place. That is, it's a cracking plant - and if it does cracking, it's unlikely to export ore, which is unprocessed dirt, meaning it imports ore, meaning we lose our only evidence of ships that might handle exports. But a scenario where robots slowly build up a supply of the rare dilithium (or something the ships need, cracked in a process utilizing dilithium?) for future starships matches the import-only setting perfectly.
(Also, since "Delta Vega" can be in different places in different timelines of the same universe, and since Vega is not a constellation and as such isn't entitled to Greek-alphabet subdivisions, it would be attractive to think that Starfleet has built a depot chain from Alpha Vega to Delta Vega, only in two different directions in two different timelines... But a chain terminating somewhere near Vulcan would be different conceptually from one terminating at the Barrier, so alphabetic sequence might not be the way to go.)
But only in appropriate context, as we well know that our heroes don't idly mention anything, not even the existence of UFP arch-enemies or a state of declared war. And there are only two episodes with the appropriate context. "By Any Other Name" comes first, and there our heroes are actually unlikely to bring up progress in protection, as that would give their enemies too much of an advantage. "In Truth" in turn is a bit too fast-paced for any discussion on protection, and if our heroes notice they have survived the passage just fine, there's little point in further discussion...
However, since the context is there, it's curious that the risk of Mitchellification is not mentioned at all - especially in episodes that otherwise already deal with madness and supernatural powers, after a fashion. Which makes it attractive to think that our heroes believed in protection in advance already. But certainly not necessary, and I agree that Kelvan protective measures are a likely explanation in the first episode, even though they may not have been retained for the second.
Timo Saloniemi
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I like that.
"When I came aboard!"
This is, in fact, the case, as I failed to properly recall. It does prompt the thought, that wasn't broached, as to why the Valiant's captain would have taken on such an unknowable risk, especially as he was not ordered to do so? The desire to push boundaries and expand knowledge as a general catch all rationale I suppose, but it makes me certainly wonder, why such an absolute unknown, when any implications of the attempt were still essentially terra incognita two hundred years later?
When I used the term support vessels, I didn't mean to imply that they would join Enterprise in the Barrier entry attempt. Their presence in my vision was to provide backup assistance in evaluating this unknown realm through the provision of enhanced scanning and/or probing capabilities to be used prior to the entry being undertaken, so as to allow the most complete picture possible of what Enterprise was to encounter. I still think though, that for such a truly exceptional step beyond what space exploration had endeavored previously, it would make imminent sense to have another vessel(s) present to either further detail a successful attempt, or more significantly perhaps, either render assistance to a ship grievously damaged or as a sober but essential chronicler of a ship tragically lost. It would seem wholly imprudent and unrealistically optimistic to believe that such an eventuality was outside the realm of probability and that such a loss suffered, quite possibly with no means to rationalize the cause, would just appear to be beyond the level of stupidity or hubris, especially in light of the fact that Starfleet wouldn't allow such a calamity to abort this mission. To proceed the next time, without any further knowledge of what was about to be faced is just too implausible to accept as the modus operandi for such an organization.
I won't go any further to argue that Delta Vega's utilization might not, in fact, be well suited, to the purpose you suggest. I would only say that the factor of its age would argue against that potentiality being the original intent of the facility. While the exploration of the space beyond our own galaxy would undoubtedly have been a powerful lure in the imagination of the Federation's explorer's for a very long time, a time line of 40 years of more would seem rather excessive for a sustained programme of planning and execution of such a scheme or attainment. The Jupiter 2 may have been the crowning result of "40 years of intensive research", but I wonder if in this still early and defining stage of general exploration of the galaxy and first encounters with so many races in the process, that such a concerted and purposeful process was viable. Can you provide any examples of that sort of time frame being devoted to any particular venture we are aware of in the TOS continuity?
I don't see how making the Kelvans privy to such a development having been attained would afford the latter any appreciable advantage. First they are going home, presumably to have their descendants report on the suitability of the Milky Way for conquest. What relevance would Starfleet vessels being able to weather the challenges of the Barrier have on such plans?. Would Starfleet confront an attacking force in the intergalactic void many hundreds of years hence? Basically, what strategic or tactical advantage does that information give to the Federation? As far as the threat of the enhancement of psychical abilities is concerned, Spock is the only member of the crew at play and we already know that he won't be effected. Regarding the Kelvans, I think we can concede that in their true form, their physiology also appears to have made them immune from such consequences. Now that they have assumed human form, presumably their brain structure and function are prone to the same impacts. That exposure to the barrier doesn't cause the development of that condition in any of them, would seem to suggest that such abilities are not among those present in their otherwise superior intellectual capacities, or that they simply have found a way to counteract such a risk. In either case, the special circumstances in place for this scenario, allow for the concern about Mitchellification to be blunted. By the way, I appreciate your term too, as I share the name portion of the phrase!
