Spock will die in the next movie

[FarStrider]

Lol - not moving the goalposts; just trying to place my comments in context. Humans are often emotional but it doesn't mean they can't do their jobs, nor does it mean that emotional outbursts aren't unprofessional. I love McCoy but dislike Trip Tucker because it seemed to me that McCoy's knew when it was appropriate to read someone the riot act whereas Trip just let his temper speak for him.

So yes, if Spock can be said to have been acting emotional, I think it is understandable in the circumstances. Pulling Uhura onto the pad was still unprofessional and emotional. Her staying in the embrace for as long as she did was unprofessional and emotional. The elevator scene was note perfect for me. This scene was mush. The same message could have been got across far more subtley and highlighted Kirk's observational skills at the same time.

You kinda did move the goalpost though. . . you originally said: Uhura is an officer and should have been the one showing the restraint, ignoring that fact that she has not even graduated from the Academy yet and that Spock is not only an officer, but a commanding officer; your quote makes it seem that it is Uhura's job to restrain both herself and Spock . . . they are both young: she is, at the most, 24 or 25 (or younger), he's 26 or 28, they've just seen one of the founding planets of the Federation die and Spock's going on a suicide mission that less than a 5% chance of success. . . I personally can cut them a little slack for "lack of professionalism" because I don't think the SOP manuals cover situations like that. . .as for being subtle and highlighting Kirk's observational skills. . . fanboys were not the main audience this film was directed at; casual fans, people who had never liked Star Trek, general audiences would have no idea what a Vulcan finger kiss is or looks like, and something like that would have gone over the heads of almost the entire audience, so storywise, Spock and Uhura had to kiss to get across to the audience that yes, they actually ARE in a relationship, and no, the turbolift kissing scene was not just a fluke.

The NuPrise is bigger than the old and that had at least five transporter rooms (there needs to be one in the secondary hull for when the saucer section separates so we must have at least two). Even shuttles (like Scotty's) have transporters now it seems so yes, I am making a logical assumption that the Enterprise has more than one transporter.

Um. . .the saucer section in the TOS Enterprise doesn't separate from the secondary hull. That's Enterpise D. . .so, again, there is nothing that says there is more than one transporter. . .

I want the writers to use Uhura more and sending her to the ship as back-up for Spock would have been more exciting and unusual than putting her on the bridge just because she speaks Romulan (the bridge co-ordinates the entire ship- it's the grunts in the room downstairs that monitor all incoming traffic and translate what seems important - thus in putting her on the bridge it makes it less likely she can use her skill efficiently and in fact she makes no useful contribution while she's up there except to leave her post to speak with Spock i.e. the real out of plot reason for putting her on the bridge).

Too many Holywood writers favour melodrama over common sense. I'd like a little of both please!

I know this isn't canonical, (more apocryphal, since Alan Dean Foster saw a rough cut of the movie and script before writing) but. . . according to the novelization Uhura was there to do her job, not just follow her boyfriend around kissing him: "Having already equipped Kirk, Uhura was in the process of pinning a special translator to Spock. . . 'I've modified these translators to allow you to speak and be understood conversationally.'" Trade paperback version, page 236. . . I wish they had left a little of that in, I think it did a real disservice to the character to take it out. And yeah, I want the writers to use Uhura more too, but I feel that the mistake you and everyone who makes arguments like this is that you think in order for her to be a strong character she has to kick ass like the boys. . . a woman can still be a strong character, be smart and excellent at her job, *HAVE a boyfriend she loves and who loves her* and NOT be Starbuck from New Battlestar Galactica or Xena Warrior Princess.

~FS

 

[Agenda]

I think people are looking way too much into that transporter room scene. You've got to look at the context of the situation. At that point of the movie, both Spock and Uhura know they might not be seeing each other again. Sure, it's maybe not the most professional behavior. But hey, they're in the room with Kirk and Scotty, neither of which are exactly bastions of professionalism, themselves (at least not in that movie). I'm sure that if Pike or some admiral had been in the room, they wouldn't have done it.

 

[Pauln6]

You kinda did move the goalpost though. . . you originally said: Uhura is an officer and should have been the one showing the restraint, ignoring that fact that she has not even graduated from the Academy yet and that Spock is not only an officer, but a commanding officer; your quote makes it seem that it is Uhura's job to restrain both herself and Spock . . . they are both young: she is, at the most, 24 or 25 (or younger), he's 26 or 28, they've just seen one of the founding planets of the Federation die and Spock's going on a suicide mission that less than a 5% chance of success. . . I personally can cut them a little slack for "lack of professionalism" because I don't think the SOP manuals cover situations like that. . .as for being subtle and highlighting Kirk's observational skills. . . fanboys were not the main audience this film was directed at; casual fans, people who had never liked Star Trek, general audiences would have no idea what a Vulcan finger kiss is or looks like, and something like that would have gone over the heads of almost the entire audience, so storywise, Spock and Uhura had to kiss to get across to the audience that yes, they actually ARE in a relationship, and no, the turbolift kissing scene was not just a fluke.

Fair do - but what I meant was that she knows him and knows he is emotionally fragile right now, therefore one can argue that the onus is on her as the person who is in a more controlled state of mind - this has nothing to do with rank or gender, merely the circumstances of the characters. Of course, it may be precisely because she knows him better than I do that she thought that giving him some emotional stability would help the mission, in which case she was acting extremely professionally...

She's 18 or 19 I think as this is 2258 and Uhura was quite a few years younger than Spock or Kirk.

I take issue with the finger rubbing though. I saw it for the first time in Journey to Babel. Sure, it was quirky but I had NO difficulty telling what it meant even though I'd never seen it before. Lets credit the audience with some intelligence here. We had a private kiss in the turbolift so viewers KNOW they are in a relationship. If the camera makes it clear that Kirk observes the touch, his reaction will inform viewers that it is an intimate gesture.

Um. . .the saucer section in the TOS Enterprise doesn't separate from the secondary hull. That's Enterpise D. . .so, again, there is nothing that says there is more than one transporter. . . .

Actually it did. It was mentioned at least once (somebody help me out with the episode here) but they never had the budget to do it. The TMP Enterprise was also capable of separating and the saucer section had landing gear.

I know this isn't canonical, (more apocryphal, since Alan Dean Foster saw a rough cut of the movie and script before writing) but. . . according to the novelization Uhura was there to do her job, not just follow her boyfriend around kissing him: "Having already equipped Kirk, Uhura was in the process of pinning a special translator to Spock. . . 'I've modified these translators to allow you to speak and be understood conversationally.'" Trade paperback version, page 236. . . I wish they had left a little of that in, I think it did a real disservice to the character to take it out. And yeah, I want the writers to use Uhura more too, but I feel that the mistake you and everyone who makes arguments like this is that you think in order for her to be a strong character she has to kick ass like the boys. . . a woman can still be a strong character, be smart and excellent at her job, *HAVE a boyfriend she loves and who loves her* and NOT be Starbuck from New Battlestar Galactica or Xena Warrior Princess.

Starbuck and Xena were very complex, conflicted characters and you are right to say that Uhura is nothing like them (although that doesn't mean that I dislike them as characters). Uhura does fare better in the novels, its true. In STIV she was left behind to scramble communications and delay security protocols for as long as she could. They couldn't have escaped without her and she then had to stay one step ahead of security in order to claim asylum at the Vulcan Embassy but in the movie one might assume she was left behind to wash the guys' socks.

 

[RookieBatman]

Um. . .the saucer section in the TOS Enterprise doesn't separate from the secondary hull. That's Enterpise D. . .so, again, there is nothing that says there is more than one transporter. . . .

Actually it did. It was mentioned at least once (somebody help me out with the episode here) but they never had the budget to do it. The TMP Enterprise was also capable of separating and the saucer section had landing gear.

It was "The Apple."

 

[FarStrider]

Fair do - but what I meant was that she knows him and knows he is emotionally fragile right now, therefore one can argue that the onus is on her as the person who is in a more controlled state of mind - this has nothing to do with rank or gender, merely the circumstances of the characters. Of course, it may be precisely because she knows him better than I do that she thought that giving him some emotional stability would help the mission, in which case she was acting extremely professionally...

She's 18 or 19 I think as this is 2258 and Uhura was quite a few years younger than Spock or Kirk.

So, we are coming to a sort of understanding here. However, I stand by my assessment of Uhura's age. . . here are my reasons: 1. We are never told Uhura's age in TOS (we are told NOTHING about Uhura in TOS, so we don't actually know that she IS that much younger than Kirk and Spock - even Memory Alpha has her birthday as just the 2230s) 2. The first scene we see her in is at a bar ordering 6 or 7 drinks, including hard liquor (shot of Jack, straight up). If she is 18 or 19 in 2258, she would have been 15 or 16 in that scene. . . in America, you can't legally step into a bar unless you are 21, and the writers are mainly writing for an American audience and expectations, so she has to be at least 21 . . . (I do know in most of Europe you have to be at least 18 to order hard liquor, so at the minimum she is 18 there, using that criteria, 3 years later she would be 21). . . even then, however, given that she and Kirk are in the same graduating class, and Kirk is doing an accelerated course load (hence the 3 years later), she was in the Academy at least a year before they met in the bar, so at minimum (using European drinking age), she's 19 and 3 years later she would be 22. 3. She graduates as a lieutenant, not an ensign, which means that she has more education than the typical Academy grad. 4. Apocryphally, officer training at the Academy last between 4-7 years. . . and according to her dossier on http://www.startrekmovie.com/ she is the current Academy Aide for Advanced Phonology and Advance Acoustical Engineering, which basically means she's a grad student (which goes with the fact that she is graduating as a lieutenant). . . according to Spock's dossier on the startrekmovie.com site he teaches Advanced Phonology, which means she is his Teaching Assistant (which is one reason Spock is worried about the APPEARANCE of favoritism in the ship assignment scene: someone obviously knows they spend a lot of time together). . . in my view, given the information that she is a graduate student/TA, she is at least 21 in the bar scene, which makes her at least 24 in 2258. BTW, speaking to one of the major complaints about Uhura and Spock being in a relationship, in American universities, there are generally no rules against grad students and professors getting together, so if they ARE together, than they wouldn't really be breaking any regulations. . .

I take issue with the finger rubbing though. I saw it for the first time in Journey to Babel. Sure, it was quirky but I had NO difficulty telling what it meant even though I'd never seen it before. Lets credit the audience with some intelligence here. We had a private kiss in the turbolift so viewers KNOW they are in a relationship. If the camera makes it clear that Kirk observes the touch, his reaction will inform viewers that it is an intimate gesture.

The quote "You will never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." comes to mind. I'm glad you were able to understand what was going on in Journey to Babel, but Star Trek was aimed at the summer movie going audience, and had to hit the lowest common denominator. . . besides, you've participated in this forum for a while: you KNOW that even fans argue over points that weren't spoon-fed to them in the script. As to Kirk noticing the touch, why would he (and the audience) know what it would mean? Vulcans are notoriously private about their culture, hell, in TOS, Kirk doesn't even know that Sarek and Amanda are Spock's parents, and they are best friends. . . so again, there is no mistaking a kiss.

As to the saucer separation:

Actually it did. It was mentioned at least once (somebody help me out with the episode here) but they never had the budget to do it. The TMP Enterprise was also capable of separating and the saucer section had landing gear

quoting Memory Alpha:
"During the 23rd century, separation was used as a means of abandoning either hull in the event of a catastrophic emergency. It was a one-time only event, and the hulls could not be reconnected without external support. This feature was a last-resort option aboard Constitution-class starships. (TOS: "The Apple") ...While unable to perform a saucer separation, per se, the Constitution-class was able to perform a precursor emergency maneuver when trapped in orbit by discarding the nacelles, and rocketing the ship into space.
In 2267, Captain James T. Kirk considered a plan wherein chief engineer Montgomery Scott would discard the warp drive nacelles and escape with the main section when the original USS Enterprise was threatened by Vaal at Gamma Trianguli VI. Ultimately, the separation was never ordered. (TOS: "The Apple") Kirk attempted to order Scott to disengage nacelles, and jettison if possible, in 2269, while the ship was in orbit of Excalbia, but the transmission was cut-off before the order was received. (TOS: "The Savage Curtain"). . ."


so, there is no "Battle bridge" on the Constitution class ship, and no need for extra transporters. . .

Starbuck and Xena were very complex, conflicted characters and you are right to say that Uhura is nothing like them (although that doesn't mean that I dislike them as characters). Uhura does fare better in the novels, its true. In STIV she was left behind to scramble communications and delay security protocols for as long as she could. They couldn't have escaped without her and she then had to stay one step ahead of security in order to claim asylum at the Vulcan Embassy but in the movie one might assume she was left behind to wash the guys' socks.

I love Xena and Starbuck and Buffy too, but in my opinion, characters like this have really warped the notion of what a strong woman character has to be. . . and notice that none of these characters actually have a happy ending. . . to me, the message these characters send is mixed at best. . .

Anyway, this is getting long. . . and I think we basically want the same things. . . the devil is in the details. . .

~FS

 

[FarStrider]

I think people are looking way too much into that transporter room scene. You've got to look at the context of the situation. At that point of the movie, both Spock and Uhura know they might not be seeing each other again. Sure, it's maybe not the most professional behavior. But hey, they're in the room with Kirk and Scotty, neither of which are exactly bastions of professionalism, themselves (at least not in that movie). I'm sure that if Pike or some admiral had been in the room, they wouldn't have done it.

I totally agree. People are getting wrapped up in "It wasn't professional". . . or "OMG! Uhura's forcing herself on him!" and aren't looking at the context of what is happening at all. . . for Scotty, it's probably funny seeing a Vulcan kissing anyone, for Kirk, it is a funny comeuppance: the woman who totally blew him off for 3 years is actually with his stick-up-the-ass his rival. . .but for Spock and Uhura, they are in a relationship, and this could be their last time seeing each other. . . so it's both a funny and bittersweet moment. . .

~FS

 

[Pauln6]

So, we are coming to a sort of understanding here. However, I stand by my assessment of Uhura's age. . . here are my reasons: 1. We are never told Uhura's age in TOS (we are told NOTHING about Uhura in TOS, so we don't actually know that she IS that much younger than Kirk and Spock - even Memory Alpha has her birthday as just the 2230s) 2. The first scene we see her in is at a bar ordering 6 or 7 drinks, including hard liquor (shot of Jack, straight up). If she is 18 or 19 in 2258, she would have been 15 or 16 in that scene. . . in America, you can't legally step into a bar unless you are 21, and the writers are mainly writing for an American audience and expectations, so she has to be at least 21 . . . (I do know in most of Europe you have to be at least 18 to order hard liquor, so at the minimum she is 18 there, using that criteria, 3 years later she would be 21). . . even then, however, given that she and Kirk are in the same graduating class, and Kirk is doing an accelerated course load (hence the 3 years later), she was in the Academy at least a year before they met in the bar, so at minimum (using European drinking age), she's 19 and 3 years later she would be 22. 3. She graduates as a lieutenant, not an ensign, which means that she has more education than the typical Academy grad. 4. Apocryphally, officer training at the Academy last between 4-7 years. . . and according to her dossier on http://www.startrekmovie.com/ she is the current Academy Aide for Advanced Phonology and Advance Acoustical Engineering, which basically means she's a grad student (which goes with the fact that she is graduating as a lieutenant). . . according to Spock's dossier on the startrekmovie.com site he teaches Advanced Phonology, which means she is his Teaching Assistant (which is one reason Spock is worried about the APPEARANCE of favoritism in the ship assignment scene: someone obviously knows they spend a lot of time together). . . in my view, given the information that she is a graduate student/TA, she is at least 21 in the bar scene, which makes her at least 24 in 2258. BTW, speaking to one of the major complaints about Uhura and Spock being in a relationship, in American universities, there are generally no rules against grad students and professors getting together, so if they ARE together, than they wouldn't really be breaking any regulations. . .

The most commonly cited DOB I've seen is 2239 (e.g. startrek.com), which dates back decades would make her 19-20. The writers chose to ignore the ages of the characters to shoe-horn them into Starfleet at the same time. I agree that there is plenty to suggest that she is older but meh, she shouldn't be.

"During the 23rd century, separation was used as a means of abandoning either hull in the event of a catastrophic emergency. It was a one-time only event, and the hulls could not be reconnected without external support. This feature was a last-resort option aboard Constitution-class starships. (TOS: "The Apple") ...While unable to perform a saucer separation, per se, the Constitution-class was able to perform a precursor emergency maneuver when trapped in orbit by discarding the nacelles, and rocketing the ship into space.
In 2267, Captain James T. Kirk considered a plan wherein chief engineer Montgomery Scott would discard the warp drive nacelles and escape with the main section when the original USS Enterprise was threatened by Vaal at Gamma Trianguli VI. Ultimately, the separation was never ordered. (TOS: "The Apple") Kirk attempted to order Scott to disengage nacelles, and jettison if possible, in 2269, while the ship was in orbit of Excalbia, but the transmission was cut-off before the order was received. (TOS: "The Savage Curtain"). . ."

so, there is no "Battle bridge" on the Constitution class ship, and no need for extra transporters. . .

Darn, this round goes to you my worthy adversary. Although actually, the Enterprise did have an auxiliary bridge, I think it was in the saucer section. I don't think TOS ever referred to more than one transporter but the TMP Enterprise refit had six+ (and the writers guide for Phase II said that there was more than one), Enterprise D had twenty. How stupid are we assuming Starfleet is in this Nu-era again? They have enough shuttles to evacuate the crew which is a step forward for health and safety at least! One transporter only for the whole ship makes no sense.

 

[FarStrider]

The most commonly cited DOB I've seen is 2239 (e.g. startrek.com), which dates back decades would make her 19-20. The writers chose to ignore the ages of the characters to shoe-horn them into Starfleet at the same time. I agree that there is plenty to suggest that she is older but meh, she shouldn't be.

The writers really aren't shoehorning anything in here considering that there was basically NOTHING about Uhura that is canonical other than the fact that she speaks Kiswahili - which is a lingua franca for East Africa with very few native speakers. . . (we don't even know what country Uhura's from) According to Memory Alpha -- which is the wiki site for all onscreen canon -- she was born in the 2230s, so it is very easy for the writers to say that she and Kirk are close in age. Considering that she didn't even have an official name until ST09, if the writers want to say she is older than Kirk, I'm okay with it.

Darn, this round goes to you my worthy adversary. Although actually, the Enterprise did have an auxiliary bridge, I think it was in the saucer section. I don't think TOS ever referred to more than one transporter but the TMP Enterprise refit had six+ (and the writers guide for Phase II said that there was more than one), Enterprise D had twenty. How stupid are we assuming Starfleet is in this Nu-era again? They have enough shuttles to evacuate the crew which is a step forward for health and safety at least! One transporter only for the whole ship makes no sense.

Of course it doesn't make any sense. . but if it is not said or shown on screen, it is not canon. . . I don't make the rules. . . I just participate in the forums. . . Besides, if they have 5 or 6 transporters, why not just beam everyone up, instead of flying them all in shuttles?

~FS

 

[FarStrider]

The crux of the issue is this: I felt that, in my purely subjective opinion, that Spock acted way out of character throughout the movie, and especially in actions like that. That's a purely subjective judgment, since as you pointed out, there is a dearth of evidence on the subject in canon materials. But if you're watching a certain movie because you appreciate the main characters, and you felt that those characters weren't depicted in a way that you felt was true to them, then wouldn't that diminish your enjoyment of the movie? That's all I'm saying. If you thought it was in character, good for you! I wish I could see it that way, but I don't. I'm not trying to prove that it was an inaccurate depiction of how Vulcans act, because that's impossible. I'm simply trying to show that my point of view has some basis and wasn't just a vindictive knee-jerk reaction borne of a predisposition against the movie.

First let me say that I do respect your point of view, RookieBatman. I'm not here to try to change anyone's opinion of the movie, and I'm sorry that it fell short for you. That said, I'm going to take issue with a couple of things you have said.

When we first started this discussion, you said:

Or might it be a few people think that having a "The O.C." style hot-and-heavy romance is totally contradictory to the concept of a Vulcan's emotional control? I wouldn't have any problem with Spock/Uhura if he just showed a little more restraint. Like, you know, a Vulcan.

You didn't say that this was your opinion of what Vulcans should be. . . you didn't indicate the this was subjective. Someone earlier asked you in comparison to what. I have watched TOS and all of its movies, and in my opinion, given the fact that Vulcans change depending on who is writing them, what TOS showed us about Spock from his earliest days in StarFleet, Spock's complete character arc and the fact that this is an alternate universe, what was shown in ST09 is in character.

Now to address the first part of your quote:

I hesitate to say this, because I'm afraid you'll take it the wrong way. I am NOT accusing Leonard Nimoy of lying or purposefully obscuring the truth. However, we do have to consider that at the time Nimoy said these things, he had an obligation, as a part of the movie's cast, to say how great it was. When was the last time you saw an actor saying how terrible a movie was that they were in, shortly after it was released? Sure, maybe years later, but that's different. While it's fresh, they have a responsibility to help sell the movie by saying it's great even if they know it's crap. Remember the "we're all very pleased" speech?
Now, I'm NOT saying that Nimoy was lying, or that he thought it was crap, or that he was just saying that to sell tickets. But we do have to allow for the possibility that he may have been pouring it on just a little bit thick, since that's what actors are expected to do for for movies they're in. Whereas, when he and Fontana made those comments about The Enterprise Incident, the show was already long off the air, so they had no need to be anything but candid about it. Of course, it's possible that Nimoy's opinion of how Vulcans should act in those situations may have just changed, but mine hasn't. I didn't see anything in the movie to indicate that Abrams understood Spock's character. Of course, I didn't like Quinto, either, so maybe Abrams wrote it great, and I just didn't like how Quinto played it. But it's all subjective anyway.

I don't think it's fair of you to ignore things that disagree with your point. . . or to say that maybe Nimoy said nice things about the movie just because he was promoting it. . . when Leonard Nimoy says in the New York Times of all things http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/a-mind-meld-qa-with-leonard-nimoy/: When they made the first “Generations” film, there was one scene where all the original cast was included, including Spock. But the Spock dialogue was not Spock character dialogue. It was expositional dialogue that had nothing to do with the Spock character. And I said to the producer at the time: 'There’s no real Spock character in this film. You can distribute those lines amongst anyone else in the scene and it wouldn’t make any difference.' I did not appear in that film. That’s the film in which they killed Captain Kirk, I thought rather gratuitously. There was no reason for doing that... that shows me that he wants to not only protect the legacy of the character that he has played for 45 years, but that he has enough integrity to not act in a movie "just because". . . and when he says: I had a wonderful meeting with J. J. and Bob Orci and Alex Kurtzman, the writers. They spoke intelligently and very passionately about what “Star Trek” was for them. And it really put me back in touch with what I felt was the best of what “Star Trek” and Spock were when we were making the original shows. They wrote a very exciting script — I think it’s obvious that it’s a very big movie, but it’s also a very touching and very personal movie. There’s a great heart at the center of it... I trust him because this is his legacy he's talking about. . . this is what he's going to be remembered for for all time: not Mission Impossible, or In Search Of or directing Three Men and a Baby. . .

Your mileage may vary, but to me Nimoy has proven that he has the character's integrity in mind when he chooses to act in things.


~FS

 

[JarodRussell]

Your mileage may vary, but to me Nimoy has proven that he has the character's integrity in mind when he chooses to act in things.

Yeah, but what did he have to say in the new movie? Recycled lines from TWOK, some expositional dialogue that could have been given to someone else entirely (for instance Nero or - dare I say it - Admiral/Ambassador Picard) and "Thrusters on full!"

 

[Pauln6]

The writers really aren't shoehorning anything in here considering that there was basically NOTHING about Uhura that is canonical other than the fact that she speaks Kiswahili - which is a lingua franca for East Africa with very few native speakers. . . (we don't even know what country Uhura's from) According to Memory Alpha -- which is the wiki site for all onscreen canon -- she was born in the 2230s, so it is very easy for the writers to say that she and Kirk are close in age. Considering that she didn't even have an official name until ST09, if the writers want to say she is older than Kirk, I'm okay with it. .

I can't find any attribution to explain why her DOB is listed as 2239 everywhere except Memory Alpha. She's been listed as 6 years younger than Kirk as far back as I can remember, even in the FASA rpg rulebooks of the seventies. Personally I'm happy if she's still that age. We don't need to apply 21st century attitudes to drinking to the 23rd century even if the writers are still applying early 20th century attitudes to women in bars.

I know that some eagle-eyed fan spotted Rand's DOB on a viewscreen in Flashback and she turned out to be 10 years older than believed previously (from a line in a Miri script that didn't make the final cut and in line with the actress's real age).

I resist ageing Uhura largely because they already did it to Chekov when they could have saved him for the sequel and used my beloved Rand instead and because I don't want this to be 90210 in space. I want the characters to be diverse in age and experience and they seem to be screwing with that unnecessarily.

Besides, if they have 5 or 6 transporters, why not just beam everyone up, instead of flying them all in shuttles?

That question can be applied a lot. Range clearly isn't the issue in the scene after the bar and are we suggesting that Starfleet Acadamy has insufficient transporters to take beam a few new recruits from Iowa to San Fran? I think transporters must use up a lot of energy and they don't use them casually in everyday life. With regard to the ship itself, I think it's likely that the transporters were in constant use beaming personnel, equipment, and cargo (subject to the number of transporters on the ground supplying 7 ships) and that the shuttles were used for everyone else.

The deck plans I've seen seem to suggest 4 6-man transporters in the saucer section. The TMP plans also suggest an emergency transporter in the engineering section and one more 6-man transporter down there too plus a 2-man transporter on the bridge.

I think that overall, this guy has it right:

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Construct_a_Federation_Starship

 

[RookieBatman]

First let me say that I do respect your point of view, RookieBatman. I'm not here to try to change anyone's opinion of the movie, and I'm sorry that it fell short for you.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

That said, I'm going to take issue with a couple of things you have said.

When we first started this discussion, you said:

Or might it be a few people think that having a "The O.C." style hot-and-heavy romance is totally contradictory to the concept of a Vulcan's emotional control? I wouldn't have any problem with Spock/Uhura if he just showed a little more restraint. Like, you know, a Vulcan.

You didn't say that this was your opinion of what Vulcans should be. . . you didn't indicate the this was subjective.

I didn't say it then, because I was only trying to refute the specific suggestion that the only reason people didn't like Spock/Uhura is that it had never happened in the Prime U. So, I was just trying to say why else it might be. Although, I kinda think it would save us quite a few words if we all just accepted that pretty much everything we say is subjective (even that Wikipedia article you quoted), so I guess I just hoped that would be assumed. But notice that my point, at its simplest level, is that showing "a little more restraint" is like a Vulcan. It didn't become a complex discussion of subjective interpretation until after that.

I don't think it's fair of you to ignore things that disagree with your point. . .

I don't understand that sentiment, because it seems to me that you are just as much ignoring the Nimoy/Fontana comments that I mentioned. Should this one be more relevant than those? Because you said they didn't matter.