Spock and Savik

[Therin of Andor]

She was offered the part - not once but twice and refused it. Her salary demand probably were high (contrary to what Starlog might say) due to her fear of typecasting.

I've been told the story by people who know her agent. Paramount had to make Alley an offer, contractually, to do ST III. They deliberately offered her less than she made on ST II. The agent countermanded with a commensurate high figure (in fact they asked for the equivalent of Shatner's salary, rumours say) - as is normal Hollywood routine - and Paramount chose not to respond. Contractual obligation ends. Of course she was upset not to do more Star Trek; she was an avid fan, and used to spend her childhood perfecting the art of eyebrow arching. But sure, typecasting was also a concern, but she didn't get a chance to keep negotiating on a price for ST III. Along came a high profile play, so she took it. Next she knew Robin Curtis was wearing her old uniform jacket.

Note that Alley had already played Saavik one more time after ST II: in a play at the "Ultimate Fantasy" convention, alongside the regulars and Mark Lenard. Significantly, Nimoy wasn't required for the play, since Spock was deceased.

The next time Alley refused an offer was ST VI. She was in "Cheers" at the time and beginning to react to the public observations of her steadily increasing weight. She just didn't want to return to ST after all those years away from it. In her hilarious autobiography, she mentions how the only way she got herself into that Starfleet uniform (the thinnest she'd ever been in her adult life) for ST II was because her father had just been killed in a car accident a few days before her final audition and, in her grief, she lost the few extra pounds the studio was expecting of her.

Supposedly, she refused one more opportunity: a no-line cameo beside Captain Bateson (played by her "Cheers" co-star, Kelsey Grammer) in TNG's "Cause and Effect". Again, her "Cheers" schedule, and a feeling she was too large to play Saavik, led her to not participating.

Had they been afraid of Saavik upstaging Spock the character could have been eliminated, not replaced by another young attractive female.

You suppose a lot.

Whether you liked her performance or not, Kirstie Alley was extraordinarily popular with ST fans of the day - and being touted in the ST fanzines as "the Spock replacement". I followed these events as they unfolded. People had expected to resent the character as a Mary Sue but Alley really surprised them in ST II. Now Spock was dead, and before anyone knew that Spock would indeed return for the next film, it still wasn't known in what form, and played by whom. Had Nimoy refused to appear as Spock in more ST movies, Harve Bennett may well have had Saavik assume Spock's essence from McCoy's head, and go on to be the new Spock character in future films. (Indeed, that was an early fan theory, even though we didn't know what a katra was, or whether there was anything in McCoy's brain placed their when Spock said, "Remember"!)

Similarly, Merritt Butrick was a standby Shatner/Kirk replacement, should Shatner baulk at doing more movies.

Also it seems to me that the cave scene occurred for a reason.

It was there because fans loved Vulcan rituals. It was a scene that suggested much, but said very little, and was open to interpretation. Along the same lines as "Why did Khan leave one glove on his hand?" and "Why did Spock say, 'Remember!'?"

So IMO it was set up as a possible storyline to produce a future character.

One possibility. Yes. They also toyed with Saavik having an affair with David Marcus. According to my interview with Paul Winfield, they also toyed with the idea of Saavik and Kirk having an attraction.

Nimoy was actually looking to produce his own character's future replacement.

ST III was deliberately written so that, if Nimoy decided not to play Spock, the last actor to play young Spock (Joe W Davis, IIRC) on Genesis would be the one beamed up before turning into Nimoy's age.

think he was in favor of the future charcter but others involved in ST at that time were not.

Without a doubt Director Nimoy was setting an agenda which did not always mesh with Harve Bennett's plans. Nimoy was heavily involved in the casting of Robin Curtis.

I was glad to see Alley go

Because you didn't like her. You're in a minority, though.

She didn't look or act Star Fleet yet alone Vulcan or Romulan. Feel free to disagree but her appeal was her looks, not her ST acting talent.

"ST acting talent"? Is that different to regular acting talent?

Alley has won awards for her acting. She definitely has talent.

Still amazed that a mainstream casual ST fan like myself got what was occurring in that cave and some rabid Trekkies did not.

Um, what do you think happened in the cave that we didn't "get"?

Pardon me for being an ignorant rabid Trekkie.

 

[maryh]

^^^^
I hope you feel better after typing all that info out. I'm more interested in finding out how you arrived at the idea that Nimoy thought Alley would upstage him, so he payed her peanuts to cast someone else in the role who they knew would be disliked by the fans and not upstage him?

She seems to have a pattern IMO -- from Wickipedia again:

"The character was at one point to appear in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, "Cause and Effect" in a scene in which the Enterprise-D encounters a starship that had been trapped in a time anomaly for some 80 years. The idea was dropped when Kirstie Alley insisted on being paid more for a nonspeaking cameo part than the episode budget could supply. (Saavik was to have been shown standing alongside a character played by Alley's Cheers co-star, Kelsey Grammer).[1]

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

One possibility. Yes. They also toyed with Saavik having an affair with David Marcus. According to my interview with Paul Winfield, they also toyed with the idea of Saavik and Kirk having an attraction.

IIRC, I read somewhere that the scene between Saavik and Kirk was cut, in the original movie release, so that there be more close-ups on both characters to suggest a flirtation. In the director's cut, Meyer restored the two-shot that he preferred for the scene. Also, I also recall reading that the reason the attraction wasn't further explored was because Alley and Shanter didn't get along off-camera which translated to poor on-screen romantic on-screen chemistry.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

It doesn't hurt to double check.

It's a lot of double-checking, though: Therin is right.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I hope you feel better after typing all that info out.

I did it for you, not for me. Why so sarcastic?

I'm more interested in finding out how you arrived at the idea that Nimoy thought Alley would upstage him, so he payed her peanuts to cast someone else in the role

Nothing to do with making fans dislike Robin Curtis. Nimoy decided that he wanted the character colder and less emotional than ST II's Saavik.

Fannish speculation of the day was that Nimoy, who wanted Spock killed off in ST II, did a turnaround at some point - and it could have been that more fans than expected were happy to have Alley in the Spock role permanently. Of course, Nimoy's participation in a Bennett production had been happier than with Roddenberry (TMP) and Frieberger (Season Three TOS), and he was game to have another go at Spock.

The studio offered her peanuts for ST II to fulfill their contractual obligation and allow them to recast. For whatever reason they felt the need to. Reasons for dropping actors are rarely published by either side. So speculation is always rife.

My suggestion is just as valid as you saying, "Her salary demand probably were high (contrary to what Starlog might say) due to her fear of typecasting." Alley had just done her first Hollywood engagement (ST II), followed by playing Saavik again at "Ultimate Fantasy" - and to then do STs III, IV (and more) may well have labeled her as "that science fiction actress", when in fact it turned out she's a very talented comedienne, who's had a rich and varied career.

She seems to have a pattern IMO -- from Wickipedia again:
"The character was at one point to appear in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, "Cause and Effect" in a scene in which the Enterprise-D encounters a starship that had been trapped in a time anomaly for some 80 years. The idea was dropped when Kirstie Alley insisted on being paid more for a nonspeaking cameo part than the episode budget could supply. (Saavik was to have been shown standing alongside a character played by Alley's Cheers co-star, Kelsey Grammer)".

Again, I helped to write that Wikipedia entry, IIRC. If not that one, then her entries on Memory Alpha and Memory Beta. Wikipedia can say anything any registered member wants to say. Not my fault if people keep adding speculation as to her reasons for saying "No". I could go in now and change it back.

Why would an actress of Alley's calibre have to go on a diet for a few seconds on non-speaking cameo screentime? And a few hours in the makeup chair having pointed ears attached? There was nothing compelling for her about "Cause and Effect". A lot of trouble for a few seconds of screentime. It's not as if they were planning to rewrite the scene and give Saavik lines. It was an afterthought to invite her because Grammer, her "Cheers" costar and also a big ST fan, had won the Bateson role.

BTW, in the Wikipedia entry for "Cause and Effect", the much tamer claim - that Alley's "asking price was too high for such a small role" - is footnoted with a link to Larry Nemecek's "ST:TNG Companion".

 

[Therin of Andor]

IIRC, I read somewhere that the scene between Saavik and Kirk was cut, in the original movie release, so that there be more close-ups on both characters to suggest a flirtation. In the director's cut, Meyer restored the two-shot that he preferred for the scene.

The intercutting closeups appeared in the extended TV version only. It suggested more flirting than the originally-used version. Meyer had nothing to do with the editing of that broadcast version, though.

The original cinema release and the DVD DE both have the two-shot, and little flirtation.

Also, I also recall reading that the reason the attraction wasn't further explored was because Alley and Shanter didn't get along off-camera which translated to poor on-screen romantic on-screen chemistry.

That was from me. My interview with Paul Winfield (Captain Terrell), which was published in a newszine, Data, before ST II was released. Winfield was in Australia filming the movie "On the Run", having just done ST II.

Yes, according to Winfield, their offscreen relationship was quite strained, making those elevator scenes more difficult to do. (Proof that Shatner and Alley both have acting talent?)

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

IIRC, I read somewhere that the scene between Saavik and Kirk was cut, in the original movie release, so that there be more close-ups on both characters to suggest a flirtation. In the director's cut, Meyer restored the two-shot that he preferred for the scene.

The intercutting closeups appeared in the extended TV version only. It suggested more flirting than the originally-used version. Meyer had nothing to do with the editing of that broadcast version, though.

The original cinema release and the DVD DE both have the two-shot, and little flirtation.

That's it! Thanks, I couldn't remember which version it was.

That was from me. My interview with Paul Winfield (Captain Terrell), which was published in a newszine, Data, before ST II was released. Winfield was in Australia filming the movie "On the Run", having just done ST II.

Yes, according to Winfield, their offscreen relationship was quite strained, making those elevator scenes more difficult to do. (Proof that Shatner and Alley both have acting talent?)

Ah! My thanks, once again.

 

[cardinal biggles]

You really could stand to lose the attitude, maryh. It's pretty clear that you like Robin Curtis and dislike Kirstie Alley, and you certainly seem to have formed your own ideas about the reasons for the change in actresses. That doesn't justify being bitchy and abusive to other members when they challenge your preconceptions with facts.

 

[maryh]

You really could stand to lose the attitude, maryh. It's pretty clear that you like Robin Curtis and dislike Kirstie Alley, and you certainly seem to have formed your own ideas about the reasons for the change in actresses. That doesn't justify being bitchy and abusive to other members when they challenge your preconceptions with facts.

If I sounded bitchy, it was not my intention rather I was "teasing" the poster. He obviously likes Alley - most men do, and it gave him the opportunity to defend her and extoll her virtues. That was what my comment was supposed to imply.

I don't really like or dislike Alley but I do feel she felt she became too good for ST. I am not alone in this view as others have expressed similar ideas on other boards. She rejected the role 3 times and she doesn't seem to want to have that role associated with her. A good career move for her and I can't blame her, nonetheless it is the blaming of Nimoy for not wanting to be upstaged that I object to. I see no evidence for this idea. Most men are weak to and influenced by a pretty face, and Alley had a lot of sex appeal. It could effect ones judgement.

 

[Therin of Andor]

rather I was "teasing" the poster. He obviously likes Alley - most men do, and it gave him the opportunity to defend her and extoll her virtues. That was what my comment was supposed to imply.

In fact, maryh, I loved Kirstie Alley's performance as Saavik - and Vonda McIntyre's development of the character in the novelizations of ST II and ST III. But... I also really enjoyed Robin Curtis's performances, both in the TOS movies and TNG's "Gambit".

So no need to tease. Just ask me if you wanted me to start extolling virtues on someone.

I don't really like or dislike Alley but I do feel she felt she became too good for ST.

Then you need to read her book, "How To Lose Your Ass and Regain Your Life"! That was her big opportunity to slam ST, but she discusses it with fondness. It was her more concern about her weight that caused her to turn down ST VI and "Cause and Effect".

nonetheless it is the blaming of Nimoy for not wanting to be upstaged that I object to. I see no evidence for this idea.

And some fans do. Especially fans who've had personal chats with many behind-the-scenes ST people over the years, several of whom were very close to the situation.

Most men are weak to and influenced by a pretty face, and Alley had a lot of sex appeal. It could effect ones judgement.

Hahahahahahaha! So how do you explain that I find Persis, Kirstie and Robin equally appealing as ST guest leading ladies? Bang goes your theory, eh?

Fascinating that you assume I think Kirstie is prettier than Robin? They are both very attractive women.

 

[Katrine]

really[/i] a starship captain,

*Gasp* You mean he's NOT??!!

 

[trevanian]

I also recall reading that the reason the attraction wasn't further explored was because Alley and Shanter didn't get along off-camera which translated to poor on-screen romantic on-screen chemistry.

Ever see MOONLIGHTING? Offscreen chaos can equal onscreen dynamite.

Also, Bennett's first treatment for III (Presumably before Alley became disinvolved) had Kirk getting together with Saavik. So Bennett was still pushing that, well after the elevator closeups had been cut from TWOK.

Bob Sallin had a bit in making of trek 2 or someplace else talking about Saavik being attracted to Kirk, then 'settling' for Kirk's son as an alternative, when discussing cut scenes and such.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Ever see MOONLIGHTING? Offscreen chaos can equal onscreen dynamite.

Yes, of course! BTW, the quote you're answering above isn't actually mine, it's middyseafort's.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Ever see MOONLIGHTING? Offscreen chaos can equal onscreen dynamite.

Yes, of course! BTW, the quote you're answering above isn't actually mine, it's middyseafort's.

But the information came from something of yours that I had previously read, so it's all gravy!

Fo' sure, off-screen tension can lead to good on-screen dynamic. Hell, Shatner and Nimoy weren't the best of friends on TOS but by what aired you couldn't tell. As for Saavik and Kirk, that seemed a more likely paring since in TWoK the former obviously has adoration for the latter.

Despite the Pon Farr scene in TSFS, Saavik and Spock seemed to have a father/daughter or mentor/student relationship that I just didn't see blossoming into romance. It's why I can't understand the novels having Saavik becoming Spock's wife. I much prefer how David R. George III has Spock marry a previously unseen, human woman in his Crucible trilogy.

 

[Ronald Held]

I can see their relationship would changing over a half century or more.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Saavik and Spock seemed to have a father/daughter or mentor/student relationship that I just didn't see blossoming into romance. It's why I can't understand the novels having Saavik becoming Spock's wife.

Spock and Saavik didn't marry for romance. Their mentor/student relationship had ended decades earlier and here they were, both without life-partners, and many of their non-Vulcan companions were in their twilight years. It was the logical thing to do.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I'm a bit thin on my novel-reading (almost exclusively TNG, plus anything penned by Peter David), so would you mind pointing me to where I can read more about this?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm a bit thin on my novel-reading (almost exclusively TNG, plus anything penned by Peter David), so would you mind pointing me to where I can read more about this?

From Memory Beta (and the cover blurb of "Vulcan's Heart"):
"Vulcan's Forge by Josepha Sherman and Susan Shwartz was widely praised as a groundbreaking Star Trek adventure that provided captivating new insights into both Spock and his native Vulcan. Now those same authors return with an engrossing new novel that bridges two generations of Star Trek heroes -- and reveals a crucial lost chapter in the history of Spock.

"2329: Now a diplomat for the United Federation of Planets, Spock agrees to a bonding with Commander Saavik. More than a betrothal, less than a wedding, the sacred Vulcan rite is attended by both Spock's father, Sarek, and a nervous young Starfleet lieutenant named Jean-Luc Picard."

So, you could start with "Vulcan's Forge", which leads to this book, which has the ceremony. They are followed by the "Vulcan's Soul" trilogy.

 

[DrTaylor]

I had hoped, when Savik was introduced in TREK II, that she would have turned out to be Spock and the female Romulan Commander's child. Of course that was all gutted when Spock had sex with Savik in TREK III. How many of you wish that their 'implied' sex scene had resulted in a child?

Rob
Scorpio

In the script... it did.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In the script... it did.

An early ST IV script. Kirk says he understands Saavik's decision to stay on Vulcan "... in your condition".

And that was all it said.