Spock and Savik

[trevanian]

I think it would have been a terrible idea.

Truly terrible.

I know Nimoy wanted it to happen, but I never really imagined they had sex in TSFS to be honest. I don't know how you get from "finger rubbing" to sex. To me, it looks a non-sexual like a way of controlling his urges.

I just cannot understand how having sex with a rapid-ageing teen reincarnation of a dead vulcan would be the "logical" thing to do...

The only way they didn't have intercourse is if Saavik was using her hand salute to give him a hand job.

As for the children notion, there are a few lost possibilities ... Bennett had originally had Saavik and Kirk together in the SFS treatment, and following up on that, writers on TVH or TUC (I can never remember which pair it was, but the guys who went to arbitration on each one were pairs) liked the idea of Kirk having a child that was actually a descendant of Spock's as well. I guess that would have all come from this non-coupling.

Maybe that was going to be Saavik/Valeris' motivation in TUC ... to protect her child by saving the Fed and S'fleet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nobody thinks a half logical Vulcan, quarter emotional Human and quarter passionate Romulan, probably raised on Vulcan by the intimidating Sarek would have been an interesting character?

The question such speculation always arises in me is how much culture plays a part in someone being a "Vulcan" or a "Romulan" as opposed to biology/physiology. My thought is that such a child raised on Vulcan would probably be as Vulcan as any other child raised there in the Vulcan tradition. (barring the occational teasing by Vulcan bullies) The same would hold true for such a child raised on Romulas. I think Saavik's aborted background included some time spent with Romulans during her formative years, which would create a Romulan vs Vulcan dichotomy in her but not a child raised on Vulcan.

I think people are always trying to humanize all the different alien species and claiming their culture is responsible for how the aliens behave but I think otherwise. I think physiology has a lot to do with why a culture exists in the first place.

Vulcans and Romulans might have been from the same stock but look at some of the differences. Romulans are not touch telepaths, they can't compute in their heads like Vulcans, they don't have those perfect eidetic memories, they don't seem to go into healing trances, or have those internal built in clocks like the Vulcans do etc. I believe most of these differences are physiological in nature - since the races separated, their brains have evolved different from each other and they are inherently different based upon differing brain anatomy.

Same with Humans verses Vulcans. IMO Vulcans are by nature more logical and less emotional than humans and this is in part based on physiology. I also think a human could not suppress emotion their whole life - or they'd go nuts and be extremely psychologically screwed up. I think massive differences exist between the differing species shown in ST and they are strongly affected by the differing physiology of the species. Makes the hybrids unpredictable and highly interesting characters.

I would disagree. Much of the differences between Vulcans and Romulans control comes from their cultures. Vulcan culture changed when Surak's ideas became accepted as the norm. Romulans come from a pre-Surakian culture. Its also possible that they dont use telepathy or healing trances because of some sort of cultural taboo with in the groups who becam the Romulans after leaving Vulcan. If properly trained a Romulan might be able to perform all the "tricks" Vulcans are noted for.

The Enterprise Incident
Romulans and Vulcans read almost exactly alike. There is just a slight difference which --

If anything Vulcans are much more emotional than humans and that requires greater control and their logic is something learned ( and needed to help suppress these greater emotions) than something inate.

Balance of Terror
Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonizing period, savage even by Earth standards. If Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then we dare not show weakness

Also, aliens in Star Trek, especially TOS, were not meant to be totally alien but to reflect certain aspects of humanity.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think Saavik's aborted background included some time spent with Romulans during her formative years, which would create a Romulan vs Vulcan dichotomy in her but not a child raised on Vulcan.

She was hardly "a child" being raised on Vulcan, since the (admittedly non canon) background had her being raised on a deserted prison colony world. Her formative years were more comparable to Tasha Yar's.

In the novelization, Vonda McIntyre develops this background as her time on Hellguard. We're never told, IIRC - and half-caste Saavik doesn't wish to know - whether her mother was the Romulan or the Vulcan. She was a feral thing when found by Spock, so no amount of Vulcan upbringing was going to help much. Kirstie Alley used a similar background to inform her portrayal of Saavik, even though the script didn't go into such detail.

Also, the novels have since given Saavik some time spent on Vulcan, and specified she was raised into the teenage years by Sarek and Amanda, but Sarek was an ambassador-at-large and Saavik may have spent most of those years offworld? An early issue of the first DC Comics series (or was it the novelization of ST II or III) actually had Saavik say she's never been to Vulcan, so her canonical arrival with the Bird of Prey at the end of ST III, and then choosing to stay with Amanda at the beginning of ST IV, fits well here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think Saavik's aborted background included some time spent with Romulans during her formative years, which would create a Romulan vs Vulcan dichotomy in her but not a child raised on Vulcan.

She was hardly "a child" being raised on Vulcan, since the (admittedly non canon) background had her being raised on a deserted prison colony world. Her formative years were more comparable to Tasha Yar's.

In the novelization, Vonda McIntyre develops this background as her time on Hellguard. We're never told, IIRC - and half-caste Saavik doesn't wish to know - whether her mother was the Romulan or the Vulcan. She was a feral thing when found by Spock, so no amount of Vulcan upbringing was going to help much. Kirstie Alley used a similar background to inform her portrayal of Saavik, even though the script didn't go into such detail.

Also, the novels have since given Saavik some time spent on Vulcan, and specified she was raised into the teenage years by Sarek and Amanda, but Sarek was an ambassador-at-large and Saavik may have spent most of those years offworld? An early issue of the first DC Comics series (or was it the novelization of ST II or III) actually had Saavik say she's never been to Vulcan, so her canonical arrival with the Bird of Prey at the end of ST III, and then choosing to stay with Amanda at the beginning of ST IV, fits well here.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just cannot understand how having sex with a rapid-ageing teen reincarnation of a dead vulcan would be the "logical" thing to do...

"Amok Time" supposedly set a precedent that when pon farr hits, a Vulcan male must mate or die. The original Spock, although a human/Vulcan hybrid, had been paired at a young age with his bondmate, T'Pring, but he didn't hit his first pon farr until a later-than-expected age. Spock says in the episode, he thought he'd been spared the experience, but it just hits later than normal.

The Genesis-reanimated Spock had never been bonded so, as soon as he hit puberty, the pon farr set in - and Saavik realized it was a "mate or die" situation for him.

The novelization of ST III spends some time with this, in addition to the Hall of Ancient Thought katra repository and rituals (ie. which explains why Sarek was so desperate to get Spock's body back to Vulcan, not for Fal Tor Pan - because no one knew that Spock had been regenerated - but simply for the usual rituals concerned with placing Spock's katra into the Hall.)

As for the children notion, there are a few lost possibilities ...

Yep. Also, when Kim Cattrall baulked at becoming Actress #3 to play Saavik, the writers supposedly looked at other possibilities for who Valeris might be. One rejected suggestion (according to an article I once read on GEnie - pre-Internet) was that she might have been a rapidly-aged daughter of Saavik and Young Spock, following up the filmed-but-dropped pregnancy inference from ST IV, but this would have required lots of wacky explanation and it was easier for Valeris to become Spock's newest protege instead.

The novelization of ST VI suggests that Valeris has a Klingon name and some Klingon heritage. The final script calls the character Val'Eris, although I never saw that rendition in any publicity materials. The earlier drafts, of course, say "Saavik".

 

[Therin of Andor]

Isn't that what I said?

Yeah. On my first reading of your comment it seemed like you were underestimating the influences of her Romulan, abandonment and prisoner-of-war experiences. So I just elaborated on some stuff.

 

[indranee]

I truly never saw any "romance" between the two. it'd have been horrible, IMO.

 

[Tralah]

I think it was a missed opportunity. It could have been very interesting to see Spock play the role of a father, but I"m not sure if the movie format could have explored it well enough.

 

[maryh]

I truly never saw any "romance" between the two. it'd have been horrible, IMO.

But that was the beauty of this situation - no romance was needed. Saavik did what she did out of duty and gratitude. Saving his life was "the logical thing to do". It provided a character for the future, without creating romance.

 

[maryh]

I think it was a missed opportunity. It could have been very interesting to see Spock play the role of a father, but I"m not sure if the movie format could have explored it well enough.

An area they almost avoided like the plague. McCoys daughter was never mentioned. They sprung David Marcus on us and rid us of him strangely. It was almost like they were afraid of exploring this venue.

 

[trevanian]

I think it was a missed opportunity. It could have been very interesting to see Spock play the role of a father, but I"m not sure if the movie format could have explored it well enough.

An area they almost avoided like the plague. McCoys daughter was never mentioned. They sprung David Marcus on us and rid us of him strangely. It was almost like they were afraid of exploring this venue.

I think David was destined to become history almost as soon as TWOK came out, just because fan response was mild and it was clear Shatner was not going to jump ship. Like Decker, you don't need KirkJR when you have the original around.

Opening day on SFS, there was applause for all the actor names ... except Buttrick, and after a moment's silence, there was laughter, like, geez, who is this guy? or poor bastard.

As for Spock playing at being dada, they could have done something a la YESTERDAY'S SON with his kid courtesy Zarabeth. It would have been kind of fitting, considering Mariette Hartley was one of the actresses Nimoy considered for TVH, along with Susan Sarandon. But I think that one of Nimoy's shortcomings artistically is that while he is interested in exploring certain things from a specific perspective, he may or may not be interested in all the resonances that result from it. Bennett and or the first TVH writers said Nimoy was not comfortable with the Saavik staying behind pregnant in TVH thing at all, so while he was all gungho to do the Deborah Kerr tribute with the older woman/younger guy sex thing in SFS (the film he referenced was TEA & SYMPATHY I believe), he wasn't willing to explore consequences. I find it an odd contrast with, say, Dorn as Worf, who hated the no blood transfusion thing at first, but was happy to force the writers to remember it and play his character with that as a tentpole once they had gone and done it that way.

Might be that Nimoy's artistic strength lies with stuff that doesn't bear a lot of study, that it is best as a one-off (TVH comes to mind) or works just on a simple level (TUC, though some of that comes from the execution by others.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think David was destined to become history almost as soon as TWOK came out, just because fan response was mild and it was clear Shatner was not going to jump ship. Like Decker, you don't need KirkJR when you have the original around.

A friend of mine ran the local chapter of a huge William Shatner Fellowship and she was almost duty bound to hate Butrick (and David Marcus) in ST II with a vengeance. ("Who does that blond upstart think he is? Shatner?")

A few years later, she was on the set of ST III the day Saavik and David opened Spock's burial tube. She came back with stars in her eyes. The young man she claimed had "no charisma" on-screen swept her feet from under her, and she'd hear nothing bad about the actor, or the character, after that.

Nimoy was not comfortable with the Saavik staying behind pregnant in TVH thing at all

He also seemed to react rather negatively to the fan acclaim for Kirstie Alley's Saavik, perhaps leading to his insistence that Robin Curtis play the role "Colder... Do it colder" in ST III - and wouldn't let her watch ST II.

 

[Grant]

There's no doubt he hated the Saavik character. No way he was going to let any actor steal 'his' Star Trek 'vulcan icon' status.

So freakin' petty. Most actors would love to play the father/mentor role as they aged--but not Nimoy. he wanted to morph every trek movie into his 'Spock evolves' gig.
He dies
He lives again
He finds his humanity
He learns about friendship
And other Vulcans are BORING or TRAITORS!!

 

[Kryton]

He eats marshmallons!

 

[maryh]

There's no doubt he hated the Saavik character. No way he was going to let any actor steal 'his' Star Trek 'vulcan icon' status.

So freakin' petty. Most actors would love to play the father/mentor role as they aged--but not Nimoy. he wanted to morph every trek movie into his 'Spock evolves' gig.
He dies
He lives again
He finds his humanity
He learns about friendship
And other Vulcans are BORING or TRAITORS!!

I know Nimoy wanted it to happen, but I never really imagined they had sex in TSFS to be honest. I don't know how you get from "finger rubbing" to sex. To me, it looks a non-sexual like a way of controlling his urges.

Looks like a discrepancy to me. I'm going to assume that like Shatner, many are still jealous of the Nimoy/Spock character's popularity. I believe the poster who claimed Nimoy wanted it to happen because he directed ST 3 & 4. He did the "cave scene" from which most of us knew what had happened. He did bring back the popular Vulcan character of Sarek and his human mother -- had he been jealous of being upstaged, he would never have done so. And Kristy Alley turned down the role of Saavik in ST 3 and ST 6. IMO I think she was terrible in the role and if she weren't so good looking, so would everyone else. She was wooden, undefined, and lost in that role, plus she didn't even let them do her eyebrows. Its not like Nimoy was upstaged, rather she turned down the role because she felt she upstaged ST.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Its not like Nimoy was upstaged, rather she turned down the role because she felt she upstaged ST.

Absolutely untrue. Paramount offered Alley and her agent less for ST III than she'd received for ST II. They counter offered, as per usual - and Paramount never got back to them.

She was then offered the starring role in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", a lucrative move for someone with only one professional acting job (ST II) on her CV.

 

[maryh]

Its not like Nimoy was upstaged, rather she turned down the role because she felt she upstaged ST.

Absolutely untrue. Paramount offered Alley and her agent less for ST III than she'd received for ST II. They counter offered, as per usual - and Paramount never got back to them.

She was then offered the starring role in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", a lucrative move for someone with only one professional acting job (ST II) on her CV.

According to Wickipedia:

"Alley won a supporting role in the 1982 movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, playing Vulcan officer Lieutenant Saavik. Alley turned down the role of Saavik in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock because the producers would not meet her salary demands and because she didn't want to be typecast as a science fiction actress. Therefore, Robin Curtis assumed the role."

 

[Therin of Andor]

According to Wickipedia:
"Alley won a supporting role in the 1982 movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, playing Vulcan officer Lieutenant Saavik. Alley turned down the role of Saavik in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock because the producers would not meet her salary demands and because she didn't want to be typecast as a science fiction actress. Therefore, Robin Curtis assumed the role."

And how does that refute my statement?

That's precisely what happened. The only bits Wikipedia leaves out are that Paramount stopped returning phone calls after the agent made the first counter offer. The studio and director (Nimoy) had probably already decided to recast.

Keep in mind, too, that anyone can update Wikipedia. (In fact, I helped to write that article, IIRC, and the ones on Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, too.) I could go over there right now and add the info about her play offer. It was well documented in "Starlog" and the story has been told at many conventions.

 

[pookha]

i always doubted that saavik and the evolving spock had time to really have sex.
because, he was evovling so fast during that period of time.
i suspect before they had a chance to do anything he shifted out of the pon farr due to enormously fast growth changes his body was going through.

 

[maryh]

And how does that refute my statement?

That's precisely what happened. The only bits Wikipedia leaves out are that Paramount stopped returning phone calls after the agent made the first counter offer. The studio and director (Nimoy) had probably already decided to recast.

Keep in mind, too, that anyone can update Wikipedia. (In fact, I helped to write that article, IIRC, and the ones on Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, too.) I could go over there right now and add the info about her play offer. It was well documented in "Starlog" and the story has been told at many conventions.

It refutes the idea that Nimoy was afraid of Alley upstaging him. She was offered the part - not once but twice and refused it. Her salary demand probably were high (contrary to what Starlog might say) due to her fear of typecasting.

Had they been afraid of Saavik upstaging Spock the character could have been eliminated, not replaced by another young attractive female. Also it seems to me that the cave scene occurred for a reason. Nobody would have questioned why Genesis Spock did not experience Pon-Farr. The poster above this has offered one explanation already had someone actually questioned it. So IMO it was set up as a possible storyline to produce a future character. IMO Nimoy was actually looking to produce his own character's future replacement. He was trying to upstage himself. I don't buy the idea of Nimoy being afraid of being upstaged and think he was in favor of the future charcter but others involved in ST at that time were not.

I was glad to see Alley go, she looked like she had attended Cosmetology Academy not Star Fleet Academy. She didn't look or act Star Fleet yet alone Vulcan or Romulan. Feel free to disagree but her appeal was her looks, not her ST acting talent. Still amazed that a mainstream casual ST fan like myself got what was occurring in that cave and some rabid Trekkies did not.