Spidey OUT of MCU

[Anwar]

Spidey bring the only superhero acknowledged onscreen isn't exclusive to Raimi Spidey, it's the norm for all live-action Spider-Man adaptations except the most recent one.

Raimi and ASM, I understood had to do so because they didn't have access to other Marvel heroes. MCU dared to do otherwise and those old school types hated that for some reason.

As for Peter having problems making rent, I don't remember it being an issue except for two or three scenes in the second movie, but other than that, even Raimi had other things to tell. Not to mention that it's been a repeated theme in the comics, and I seem to remember you being big on movies sticking to the comics.

It gets old if it's repeated over and over again, I can appreciate it when they evolve the premise like having Lois always know Clark was Superman like in the DCEU.

He can exist along with other heroes without becoming an apprentice or protege.

Apparently even existing along with other heroes is a blasphemy.

It's the same with X-Men fans, they think that having the X-Men exist in a world where there are nonmutant superpowered beings will somehow ruin the story.

 

[suarezguy]

MCU Peter was shown (seen) as being Stark's protege and dependent on him, as well as being incompetent at protecting his secret identity, from the beginning (not actually from his first day or week but from the first time we saw him).

I believe a lot of, if not most, fans of the Raimi films also like the '90s animated series where he did appear with other Marvel superheroes.

 

[Anwar]

MCU Peter was shown (seen) as being Stark's protege and dependent on him

Same as with Ultimate Peter and Nick Fury.

as well as being incompetent at protecting his secret identity, from the beginning (not actually from his first day or week but from the first time we saw him).

He was pretty incompetent at it in the comics too, it's just that there the characters would randomly become idiots and never connect the dots.

I believe a lot of, if not most, fans of the Raimi films also like the '90s animated series where he did appear with other Marvel superheroes.

As long as everything centered on him to the detriment of those other characters.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Raimi and ASM, I understood had to do so because they didn't have access to other Marvel heroes. MCU dared to do otherwise and those old school types hated that for some reason.

Access maybe was a reason, but then, Sony could have just bought the rights to a couple more Marvel characters (the licences were relatively cheap, especially for characters like Captain America or Thor back in the day). They chose not to.

And, again, who are those old school types you are talking about? Yeah, I've seen some who prefer the lone hero approach, but who is it that hated it so much that it made you so defensive about it?

It gets old if it's repeated over and over again, I can appreciate it when they evolve the premise like having Lois always know Clark was Superman like in the DCEU.

Again, did I miss something, or was the rent thing only in that one movie?! How is that "repeated over and over again"? And if it's the character generally being short on cash most of the time, that's, you know, Spidey's schtick. That's what makes him different to the other heroes, that he has these real world problems, and not unlimited resources at his disposal. If that were taken away, I could certainly understand some fans not being happy about it.

Apparently even existing along with other heroes is a blasphemy.

Oh, look, another strawman. Yes, the MCU didn't quite treat Spidey as the self-dependent hero he is in the comics. Comic-Spidey didn't join any superhero team until the mid-2000s, at which point he was pretty much shown to be in his mid-twenties. And even after that, he was mostly his own hero in his own books.

It's the same with X-Men fans, they think that having the X-Men exist in a world where there are nonmutant superpowered beings will somehow ruin the story.

While I'm okay with the X-Men joining the MCU, the argument does have some merit. Even the comics have had trouble explaining why mutants were feared, shunned, and even persecuted by the public, while other superheroes had none (or considerably less) than that. How does the public know that Captain Marvel is not a mutant? Why do people fear mutants, even though there were prominent mutant Avengers? Why are respected heroes like Captain America or Thor doing so little to improve the public image of mutants?

As long as everything centered on him to the detriment of those other characters.

Well, yeah. He better be the focus in his own movies and TV shows.

 

[Anwar]

And, again, who are those old school types you are talking about?

Anyone who calls him "Stark Jr" or "Iron Boy".

Again, did I miss something, or was the rent thing only in that one movie?! How is that "repeated over and over again"? And if it's the character generally being short on cash most of the time, that's, you know, Spidey's schtick. That's what makes him different to the other heroes, that he has these real world problems, and not unlimited resources at his disposal. If that were taken away, I could certainly understand some fans not being happy about it.

There's nothing wrong with him eventually developing BEYOND that starting point. Hell, the comics made him be a successful scientist for a while.

Oh, look, another strawman. Yes, the MCU didn't quite treat Spidey as the self-dependent hero he is in the comics. Comic-Spidey didn't join any superhero team until the mid-2000s, at which point he was pretty much shown to be in his mid-twenties. And even after that, he was mostly his own hero in his own books.

He tried to join the FF in his own FIRST ISSUE and joined the Avengers in the 80s for a while as well. Hack writers always contrived reasons for him to leave or not join but the MCU isn't afraid to go for that.

While I'm okay with the X-Men joining the MCU, the argument does have some merit. Even the comics have had trouble explaining why mutants were feared, shunned, and even persecuted by the public, while other superheroes had none (or considerably less) than that.

It didn't become a problem until the writers in the 1980s and 1990s made the mutant hate really ridiculous.

How does the public know that Captain Marvel is not a mutant? Why do people fear mutants, even though there were prominent mutant Avengers?

They're better at PR and have Government support. The X-Men suck at their mission, they historically always have.

Why are respected heroes like Captain America or Thor doing so little to improve the public image of mutants?

Because the X-Men get mad when they "interfere".

Well, yeah. He better be the focus in his own movies and TV shows.

And apparently the old guard fans don't like it when he's not top dog even when he's NOT in his own movies.

 

[Mudd]

So I don't See anybody here being a Raimi purist, but you appear to me as a MCU purist making strawman arguments.

People get emotionally invested in entertainment franchises, same as baseball teams or political parties.

I mean, we're posting on Trek site. We know this.

Anyway, some MCU fans really really wanted Spidey to be a big part of their franchise going forward.

And he won't be.

Because Disney blew a negotiation. They miscalculated.

So...life goes on. There will be Spider-Man movies, and there sure as hell will be a shitload of MCU movies. No one has anything to worry about.

 

[JD]

Just the opposite: it was in their origin era that there was still mystery of the unknown...a feeling of danger about things beyond humam comprehension instead of everyone seeing superheroes and aliens on every corner. That just was part of what gave the FF its edge and unique position in those early years. That, and its Cold War backdrop framed the urgency of that kind of exploration in a way that does not exist when your tapestry is splitting from the weight of "been there, done that".

It sounds more like you don't like them living in a shared universe, more than having a problem with modern day stories.
There's no reason you can't still do exploration stories in the modern day, they're exploring the multiverse, so it's not like we're going to beat them to it in the real world any time soon.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Anyone who calls him "Stark Jr" or "Iron Boy".

What does that have to do with "Old School types"? And why do you even assume they "hated" the MCU Spidey "for some reason"? I liked Far From Home very much (though I was a bit disappointed with Homecoming), and I really like Holland, but "Stark Jr" and "Iron Boy", while being sassy, are accurate describtions of the dynamic that was going on. And by the way, nobody liked sassy nicknames better than Stan Lee.

There's nothing wrong with him eventually developing BEYOND that starting point. Hell, the comics made him be a successful scientist for a while.

Yes. For a while. He also was a teacher. For a while. And he had a living alien costume. For a while. They always return to the hero with the everyday problems, because that is what makes the character unique.

He tried to join the FF in his own FIRST ISSUE...

Emphasis on "tried".

…and joined the Avengers in the 80s for a while as well. Hack writers always contrived reasons for him to leave or not join but the MCU isn't afraid to go for that.

See, this is the point where you always get unreasonable. If creators (and fans) prefer other approaches than you, they become "hack writers" who are "afraid to go for that". You almost sound like a certain other infamous user around here. Just because writers (and editors, btw) choose a different direction than what you would have liked, that doesn't make them hacks, and fans who prefer those versions over your preferred one are not haters. They're just people with different tastes than you, and you better learn to accept that

It didn't become a problem until the writers in the 1980s and 1990s made the mutant hate really ridiculous.

You mean it wasn't a problem when the X-Men weren't popular?!

They're better at PR and have Government support.

If there's one thing we know, it's that government support doesn't automatically make something more popular with the people.

The X-Men suck at their mission, they historicallyalways have.

Because the X-Men get mad when they "interfere".

And now you're starting to sound like an X-Men hater. Maybe because they're not part of the MCU, yet?!

But, seriously, I've recently read "Secret War", and the way the Avengers, including Captain America, treated the X-Men was nothing short of horrible. Wolverine goes on a rant at one point that felt very well-deserved.

And apparently the old guard fans don't like it when he's not top dog even when he's NOT in his own movies.

You can be not interested, and yet tolerant of something. If people say they don't care about the Avengers movies, or Spidey being part of them, why do you immediately treat them like threats? I've seen this behaviour repeatedly from you, as soon as somebody suggests that the MCU is not the be-all-end-all of the superhero genre that every other superhero movie has to either be part of or emulate, you lose your shit and start these little tirades. Seriously, relax. Nobody's taking the MCU away from you. It may not have Spidey in it anymore, but it's still there, and if Sony continues with the established Holland-Spidey, you can easily pretend like he's still in the same universe, just not as involved with the other heroes as he used to. Everything is just fine, your favorite continues to be top dog in the genre, no need to bark at anybody who may have a different opinion.

 

[Mudd]

I'm loving the Zendaya-Holland Spider-Man movies so far; certainly more than the Maguire version - which I also liked quite a lot. Even the bad one, as I recall. Honesty, I haven't seen the two that Sony did a few years ago with the other British Peter Parker.

My favorite lately was the animated version with Miles Morales.

 

[suarezguy]

Same as with Ultimate Peter and Nick Fury.

True the Ultimate version, which was pretty different from Lee's desire to not have the character be a sidekick, is around, though I think even with that version he was more a follower because he had to be, was forced to be, rather than because he had admiration for the authority figure.

He was pretty incompetent at it in the comics too, it's just that there the characters would randomly become idiots and never connect the dots.

To each their own about what's believable or dumb characterization but it at least wasn't just other characters never connecting dots, I think they would often enough be suspicious and then dissuaded through a plausible explanation and/or someone impersonating Spider-Man while Peter was around.

As long as everything centered on him to the detriment of those other characters.

The crossover episodes sometimes co-starred him and the guest star, Daredevil, the X-Men, Blade, sometimes had the guest star more as just supporting, Iron Man, War Machine, Captain America but both Spider-Man and the guest stars were well-portrayed rather than him or the others coming off badly or detrimentally.

Anyway, some MCU fans really really wanted Spidey to be a big part of their franchise going forward.

And he won't be.

I think it's very likely had he remained in the MCU he would have still been portrayed as just the comic relief figure (or at least far from being a big part of the films) for a long time, he was growing in age and experience and competence only very slowly and there were still many adult and much more skilled characters to be focused on in the Avengers.

 

[DEWLine]

He definitely wants people to notice he can do more than throw a shield

There's a movie Evans was in back in 2011 called Puncture, a docu-drama about injection needle patents and the court fight about one such patent in particular, that I'd like to get a look at. Very obscure, didn't do much at all at the box office, and if I could get a look at it at one of the second-run cinemas where I live...?

But I digress.

 

[Jayson1]

Why does Spidey have to just do stories from the comics? What if moved to LA for a new job and fell in love with Doc Op who is a women this universe or something? As long as the character feels constient then why does it matter what inspires the story? Jason

 

[Professor Zoom]

True the Ultimate version, which was pretty different from Lee's desire to not have the character be a sidekick, is around, though I think even with that version he was more a follower because he had to be, was forced to be, rather than because he had admiration for the authority figure.



To each their own about what's believable or dumb characterization but it at least wasn't just other characters never connecting dots, I think they would often enough be suspicious and then dissuaded through a plausible explanation and/or someone impersonating Spider-Man while Peter was around.



The crossover episodes sometimes co-starred him and the guest star, Daredevil, the X-Men, Blade, sometimes had the guest star more as just supporting, Iron Man, War Machine, Captain America but both Spider-Man and the guest stars were well-portrayed rather than him or the others coming off badly or detrimentally.



I think it's very likely had he remained in the MCU he would have still been portrayed as just the comic relief figure (or at least far from being a big part of the films) for a long time, he was growing in age and experience and competence only very slowly and there were still many adult and much more skilled characters to be focused on in the Avengers.

How does one tell who is the comic relief given how characterization is done with the main characters in the MCU? Aren’t they all comic relief, save for Dr. Strange? Or get turned into comic relief, like Thor?

 

[Mudd]

Comedy has been the saving grace of the MCU movies that I've enjoyed other than maybe Captain America, but they did use it well there and in the first Iron Man.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Honesty, I haven't seen the two that Sony did a few years ago with the other British Peter Parker.

They weren't bad. Andrew Garfield was a rather awful Peter Parker (Peter Parker would not crash a backboard in the school gym in front of everyone) but his Spider-man was pretty solid. They tried to redo the best-friend-turned-Goblin story though, and it absolutely didn't work.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

https://www.facebook.com/movieweb/photos/a.10150200043617199/10157194527132199/?type=3&theater

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Put some glasses on him and no one ever know who he is!

 

[Mage]

So, I kinda haven't been following this entire situation for a while now, but.....

Is this still an ongoing thing, or is truly set in stone now?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

So, I kinda haven't been following this entire situation for a while now, but.....

Is this still an ongoing thing, or is truly set in stone now?

The last solid reporting is that there are no more negotiations happening.

Doesn't mean it's truly set in stone, but based purely on the publicly available facts there's nothing to suggest it would change anytime soon. If it matters to you, I'd say just assume that the next Spider-man movie at the very least will be independent of the MCU and quite possibly the next several, unless Spider-man 3 tanks or Sony gets bought out by a different company.

 

[Mage]

The last solid reporting is that there are no more negotiations happening.

Doesn't mean it's truly set in stone, but based purely on the publicly available facts there's nothing to suggest it would change anytime soon. If it matters to you, I'd say just assume that the next Spider-man movie at the very least will be independent of the MCU and quite possibly the next several, unless Spider-man 3 tanks or Sony gets bought out by a different company.

Coolcool, than I am up to speed then. That was the last I heard. It sucks, to be sure. But we'll see what happens. I mean, James Gunn was NEVER going to be re-hired by Disney aswell, so.....