Speculation on other Starships we might encounter?

[Mirror Mirror]

DS9 over-inflated everything.

Not really. The big thing they did was use old ships. The federation has a 150 species, thousands of worlds covering a massive area. TNG stated they could replace 39 ships and 11'000 people in just 12 months. Really do the basic math here. You need hundeds of ships just to patrol the space you hold. Mich less expand out and do the other stuff Starfleet does.

If the TOS federation is a 1'000 worlds. How many ships would you say are required to keep it safe and well patrolled?

 

[Mirror Mirror]

It is canonical called a Refit, so it is a refit. End of line.

What you think is fanon, head-canon, whatever.

Yes, they called it a refit. Which no other refit is done as. We see refits, none are ground up rebuilds. We all know this was meant to be a visual reboot. There would be no silliness if they had stuck to those guns as logically it can not be the same ship. But then you don't refit a whole class and then decommission it 8 years alter either.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yes, they called it a refit. Which no other refit is done as. We see refits, none are ground up rebuilds. We all know this was meant to be a visual reboot. There would be no silliness if they had stuck to those guns as logically it can not be the same ship. But then you don't refit a whole class and then decommission it 8 years alter either.

Undiscovered country was ~20 years after TMP

 

[Mirror Mirror]

You may think it is stupid, but that's how Starleet of the era seems to operate. You guys seem to be making up your own fanon and are upset that the series and films do not adhere to that.

That is what you are doing claiming a tiny fleet. You ignore the size of the federation, you claim numbers where inflated and then ignore logic here.

 

[Tuskin38]

That is what you are doing claiming a tiny fleet. You ignore the size of the federation, you claim numbers where inflated and then ignore logic here.

Except there is evidence that the fleets are not that big.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Undiscovered country was ~20 years after TMP

And that was the USS Yorktown. Which got renamed. They were decommissioning the Enterprise 8 years after the refit when they stole it. And then he blew it up. The Yorktown may have been newer, no clue. I do not think canon ever cover it. They do state the entire class was set to be decommissioned in 2290

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Except there is evidence that the fleets are not that big.

Not really. TOS is often retconned and makes no sense as it was never meant to be anything but a single series TV show. If you have a 1'000 worlds to watch. How big is your fleet?

 

[Tuskin38]

And that was the USS Yorktown. Which got renamed. They were decommissioning the Enterprise 8 years after the refit when they stole it. And then he blew it up. The Yorktown may have been newer, no clue. I do not think canon ever cover it. They do state the entire class was set to be decommissioned in 2290

It being the renamed Yorktown is also not canon.

Also I admit I had a brain fart about the Ent-A.

 

[Tuskin38]

How big is your fleet?

as big as you need it to counter your enemies.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

It being the renamed Yorktown is also not canon.

Also I admit I had a brain fart about the Ent-A.

You could be right, it maybe one of those well known things everyone "Knows" is canon.

 

[Longinus]

By any of the big bads from TOS. They have the same size of fleet

They do?

and nowhere near the same area to protect.

They don't?

They would curb stomp the Fedration if your numbers are right, which they are not.

Or maybe they just don't have enough ships?

Why not? You are disregarding common sense and basic math here. It was plot stuff, they just so happened to be close, they just so happened to have whatever the magic item..excuse me, tech device, that was needed to fix a bad plot. This is proof of bad script, nothing else.

It is not bad script, it is just a script that do not adhere your made up notions of the fleet sizes. Personally I think the scripts are better for depicting starships rare and precious, it makes our heroes to look that much more important.

10 worlds per ship, over distance means the Federation is a lawless land that nothing gets down.

Just like Denmark is a lawless place because there is no aircraft carrier floating on Øresund. Seriuously, there are other ways to handle small stuff than starships.

Packs of small ships would hunt down and kill the lone cruiser in the 10 planet sector and render it lawless.

Or maybe they can't do that. Or maybe there are small patrol ships to handle those small pirate ships. Or maybe that indeed happens, Enterprise gets a distress call from the other ship just as it is being destroyed by the pirates and then Kirk has to sort the situation out somehow. (And we know he will.)

Its like saying you have a single lawman covering 10 cities. This is your claim and your logic? Lets see how long your cargo shipments get anywhere or someone does not park in high orbit and start nuking cities until you surrender.

Well, if someone parks a capital ship on your orbit and starts nuking, then it is probably a good time to send a distress call!

Out of a 1000 worlds, you only need 10%, that is a 100 worlds that can cranks out ships. We know each of the founders homeworlds have massive ship yards. so that is four from the word go. They had fleets before the start of the federation. Each of those cranked out warships for the Romulan war. So from day one they had a huge fleet. They have to have had a larger fleet in 2161 then you think they had in TOS.

Earth had like handful of ships at that era, and we never see huge number of ships of the other powers, nor do we know how long it took them to built those fleets. It is also possible that some of ther facilities become obsolete as technology progresses, most of the ships we know of seem to be built on Sol.

Now, lets not lie to ourselves the TMP ship was not a refit. Brand new lower hull, brand new sacuser, brand new nacells, brand new pylong, brand new core, brand new insides. They added decks, they made decks taller, they widened the hallways and added another lift to the bridge.

This is not the same ship.

They said it's a refit, its a refit.

 

[Longinus]

That is what you are doing claiming a tiny fleet. You ignore the size of the federation, you claim numbers where inflated and then ignore logic here.

No. I try to extrapolate based on what we actually see happening on the show and the movies. You have made up this huge fleet in your head and then complain that the show/films are badly written because your imaginary fleet does not appear there.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

as big as you need it to counter your enemies.

Not really true. It needs to be large enough to cover your territories and deter enemies. If you have just a 100 cruisers protecting a 1'000 worlds, you are simply dead. A massive fleet should blow though and take a massive era before you could respond. It could take years to get some ships "to the line" and only by leaving the rest of your holding completely bare.

The federation could be ripped apart easily with no threat to the empire that did it. But we do not see powers in TOS acting like that. They make probing attacks or build ups but do not actually go for an easy to win strategy. Showing me they had to have a fleet to back them up.

And as I pointed out without patrols , and heavy ones, you would not have shipping inside the federation. Transports are too easy to hit without any one knowing about it not to have patrols.

 

[Nyotarules]

You may think it is stupid, but that's how Starleet of the era seems to operate. You guys seem to be making up your own fanon and are upset that the series and films do not adhere to that.

'We guys' are prepared to accept that the writers were not infallible when it came to world building and even if a movie implies it takes ten seconds to transport from Earth to Kronos (or Earth to Vulcan under normal warp) due to transwarp beaming does not mean fans cannot laugh at the absurdity and see it for the silly plot device that it is.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

It is not bad script, it is just a script that do not adhere your made up notions of the fleet sizes. Personally I think the scripts are better for depicting starships rare and precious, it makes our heroes to look that much more important.

Its a bad script. It breaks the setting rules on speed and all that fun stuff. Everyone knows trek ignores things like speed and distance when the story calls for it.

Just like Denmark is a lawless place because there is no aircraft carrier floating on Øresund. Seriuously, there are other ways to handle small stuff than starships.

How may police does it have? You are using a false equivalence here. Demark would be the Federation, each city would be a planet. So each unit that patrols that era would be a ship. In this cause, it would be the law. How many cops do you have keeping the roads between cities safe? I per 10 cities like you said?

Or maybe they can't do that. Or maybe there are small patrol ships to handle those small pirate ships. Or maybe that indeed happens, Enterprise gets a distress call from the other ship just as it is being destroyed by the pirates and then Kirk has to sort the situation out somehow. (And we know he will.)

So they have a large navy now? Small ships are what would be used, but they would need back up and 1 ship per 10 planets does not cover it.

Well, if someone parks a capital ship on your orbit and starts nuking, then it is probably a good time to send a distress call!

Why, it will be all over before they get there. No need to worry as they know it will be weeks. So the federation fails and there is no need to be apart of it any longer as it can't protect its worlds.

Earth had like handful of ships at that era, and we never see huge number of ships of the other powers, nor do we know how long it took them to built those fleets. It is also possible that some of ther facilities become obsolete as technology progresses, most of the ships we know of seem to be built on Sol.

We never see any class of ship but one. Nor any of the dozens of races that joined the Federation. That does not mean they are not there. TMP showed they can build a connie in months. The founding races started out as a higher tech, you really think only earth can crank out high tech ( if dated) ships?

They said it's a refit, its a refit.

Not a normal refit.

No. I try to extrapolate based on what we actually see happening on the show and the movies. You have made up this huge fleet in your head and then complain that the show/films are badly written because your imaginary fleet does not appear there.

No, I gave you TNG numbers. You think they just suddenly built up? Sure after the Borg they started beefing up, but it was huge before that. You are ignoring any data that does not match your crazy small fleet theory. You can't protect the federation with a tiny fleet.

 

[Longinus]

And that was the USS Yorktown. Which got renamed. They were decommissioning the Enterprise 8 years after the refit when they stole it.

They were decommissioning it after Khan shot it full of holes. Also, it was probably more than 8 years, though times are not stated on screen, And yeah, Yorktown thing is not canon.

They do state the entire class was set to be decommissioned in 2290

Where? I don't think so. Chronology puts TUC in 2293, and it is not even stated that Enterprise is about to be decommissioned, merely that the senior crew is gonna retire or move on. Kirk even states that the ship is gonna get new crew, though that didn't happen. Maybe it was decided to decommission the ship when it once again had been shot full of holes. In any case, I cannot recall any statement about retiring the entire class, except one from the TNG:'Relics' impying that none was in service by that era.

 

[Nyotarules]

Just like Denmark is a lawless place because there is no aircraft carrier floating on Øresund. Seriuously, there are other ways to handle small stuff than starships.

Less people live in Denmark than live in London so it having no aircraft carrier makes a lot more sense than a Federation with trillion people and 1000 planets and spreading out' having 12, 400 crewed Starships.

 

[Longinus]

A massive fleet should blow though and take a massive era before you could respond.

What massive fleet? No one has a massive fleet, at least not one they could fully mobilse without leaving their own territories vulnerable at other fronts.

And as I pointed out without patrols , and heavy ones, you would not have shipping inside the federation. Transports are too easy to hit without any one knowing about it not to have patrols.

Hit by whom? Can't these transport have guns to protect them from some pesky pirates? Can't there be no small patrol boats? Where are these pirates getting these ships from that can threaten Fed transports?

 

[Longinus]

'We guys' are prepared to accept that the writers were not infallible when it came to world building and even if a movie states it takes ten seconds to transport from Earth to Kronos (or Earth to Vulcan under normal warp) due to transwarp beaming does not mean fans cannot laugh at the absurdity and see it for the silly plot device that it is.

Sure, that's absurd. But this fleet problem is an imaginary problem. The 'plot hole' of having no fleet to defend Earth is only a plot hole if you assume such fleet to exist to begin with.

 

[Tuskin38]

No, I gave you TNG numbers. You think they just suddenly built up? Sure after the Borg they started beefing up, but it was huge before that. You are ignoring any data that does not match your crazy small fleet theory. You can't protect the federation with a tiny fleet.

But we're not talking about the TNG era.