Speculation on other Starships we might encounter?

[Longinus]

No, I gave you TNG numbers. You think they just suddenly built up?

Suddenly? It is almost a century later.

Sure after the Borg they started beefing up, but it was huge before that. You are ignoring any data that does not match your crazy small fleet theory. You can't protect the federation with a tiny fleet.

There is really no such data from TOS + Original Movies era.

When there is some emergency, be it at Earth or at some colony, maybe one ship can respond, there are no fleets, not even single dedicated ships stationed at the Federation worlds, it just isn't a thing. I'm sure they have their own militias, planetary defences and maybe coast guard style patrol shuttles to deal with small local stuff, Starships are what you call when the shit really hits the fan.

 

[Longinus]

TMP showed they can build a connie in months.

Oh, and this one. Eighteen months. So year and half. For a refit. So presumably building the ship from scratch would take even longer.

 

[section9]

This story is coincident with Pike's Enterprise of the Talos IV Incident. You can't Retcon that. If the Enterprise shows up, it has to be Pike's ship and it has to be in basically the same shape as a Constitution Class heavy cruiser of the post-Four Year War era.

Same staff, too. Pike, Number One, Younger Spock, Dr. Boyce, etc.

 

[Tuskin38]

This story is coincident with Pike's Enterprise of the Talos IV Incident. You can't Retcon that. If the Enterprise shows up, it has to be Pike's ship and it has to be in basically the same shape as a Constitution Class heavy cruiser of the post-Four Year War era.

Same staff, too. Pike, Number One, Younger Spock, Dr. Boyce, etc.

And (they claim) they will.

But the ship won't be a 1:1 or it will stand out.

 

[Dukhat]

Sure, but a Boeing 747 is still a 747 despite if it is an Air Canada plane or Lufthansa

"The Apollo-class was a class of Federation starship in operation during the 24th century.

They were in Starfleet service by the 2320s through the 2370s. (TNG: "Tapestry"; DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight") They were used on missions of deep-space exploration. (TNG Season 4, display graphic) The Vulcan National Merchant Fleet and the Maquis also utilized them as freighters and transports."

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_class

None of those statements precludes that the Apollo class wasn't constructed by Vulcans exclusively, which still would not explain why they would name a class of their ships after a Greek God.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

What massive fleet? No one has a massive fleet, at least not one they could fully mobilse without leaving their own territories vulnerable at other fronts.

20 ships could take a massive part of the federation with how you have spread your theoretical 100 ships out. You could have a task force flying about killing those solo ships one by one and take out maybe 20% of the fleet before the Federation could respond. You have 100 ships, spread across 1000 worlds. It could take a year to get one ship from one play to another( or more) no way you can meet that level of threat. Heck if you could you have just left the rest of the Federation wide open. 20 ships, that is all you need to kill the Federation.

Hit by whom? Can't these transport have guns to protect them from some pesky pirates? Can't there be no small patrol boats? Where are these pirates getting these ships from that can threaten Fed transports?

Transports tend to be unarmed or lower power. even in the Federation. The ones we see in TOS are unarmed. You keep going back and forth on rather starfleet is large or tiny. Make your mind up.

But we're not talking about the TNG era.

True, but say the Federation is half the size. We know going in Starfleet started in 2161 as a large fleet, made up for the fleets of 4 powers, all with robust shipyards. Longinus is claiming a fleet smaller than the Federation had to start with,

 

[Tuskin38]

Longinus is claiming a fleet smaller than the Federation had to start with,

..no?

 

[Dr. Bashirs protege]

And (they claim) they will.

But the ship won't be a 1:1 or it will stand out.

I feel with some very minor "tasteful changes" it can work. In a 1 minute teaser there's is a picture of a small squadron of federation ships. In the background it's blurry but there is soooooo clearly a Miranda precursor with just the rollbar missing. If they can out a Miranda they can put a connie. Materials are gonna look different etc but it will be largely the same I feel

 

[Mirror Mirror]

..no?

Yes. They are stating 1 ship per 10 planets is fine. A100 ships max to cover a 1000 worlds. This is just silly. If the federation only at 100 capital ships( which a cruiser is not really a capital ship) it would be doomed.

 

[Ithekro]

None of those statements precludes that the Apollo class wasn't constructed by Vulcans exclusively, which still would not explain why they would name a class of their ships after a Greek God.

Remember that Apollo was a real alien that the USS Enterprise encountered. Therefore it is entirely possible that the Vulcans encountered him as well.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Oh, and this one. Eighteen months. So year and half.

This one I will give you. They did build it from scratch. New Hull, Saucer, Pylons, Nacells, warp core. NOTHING stayed from the TOS design. It was longer, taller, had wider halls, taller decks more lifts, more weapons systems. Nothing was left. You could likeily have built a new ship faster than what they claimed they did.

They call it a refit, but we all know it was not a normal refit. The Enterprise got a refit between the Cage and Kirk as well. Dozens of ships undergo refits, its not the rebuild we see in the movie. Its gear updates, not hull and ship redesign.

 

[Dr. Bashirs protege]

Yes. They are stating 1 ship per 10 planets is fine. A100 ships max to cover a 1000 worlds. This is just silly. If the federation only at 100 capital ships( which a cruiser is not really a capital ship) it would be doomed.

I've always felt ds9 ballooned things up to the proper number of ships. Could you imagine heading into star trek discovery or heck even the Abrams films and 40 is considered a substantial fleet? Star trek decided thankfully to go with realistically sized ships and crews where the crew compliment of a trek frigate is basically the exact same as a naval frigate, 200 plus last I checked. If you wanted only 100 ships they would have to be city sized power projection ships. Star trek doesn't have that, so you logically need MUCH more ships.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

I've always felt ds9 ballooned things up to the proper number of ships. Could you imagine heading into star trek discovery or heck even the Abrams films and 40 is considered a substantial fleet? Star trek decided thankfully to go with realistically sized ships and crews where the crew compliment of a trek frigate is basically the exact same as a naval frigate, 200 plus last I checked. If you wanted only 100 ships they would have to be city sized power projection ships. Star trek doesn't have that, so you logically need MUCH more ships.

I agree. We see in TNG, not just DS9 that the federation has a large fleet. You have to have a fleet large enough to at lest patrol your territories. Kirk in TOS gave 1'000 worlds. We both know you can't do this with 12, 40 or even 100 ships. We also know they had cruisers( what the connie was) and battleships, also scouts. True that is from the movie, but they show TOS style deckplans.

Also, I do not think some folks grasp what a cruiser is. I can see why Starfleet likes them so much as they fill the role starfleet likes. Jack of all trades ships.

 

[Ithekro]

Yes. They are stating 1 ship per 10 planets is fine. A100 ships max to cover a 1000 worlds. This is just silly. If the federation only at 100 capital ships( which a cruiser is not really a capital ship) it would be doomed.

As far as I can remember, there are no single class of battleships in the dreadnought, nor pre-dreadnought eras (1890s to 1950s) or forward that had more than nine ships in its class. There is only one large aircraft carrier class that has more than ten ships in it and that was the Essex-class with 24 built. (The Nimitz-class has ten ships, and the escort carriers were built on freighter hulls). There were few cruiser classes that has large number built of them aside from during the wars and in the post-Reagan era when the naval powers started to standardize on single hull designs for decades at a time. The Arleigh Burke-class destroyer has been in production since 1988 with more contracted still to be constructed into the 2030s.

Most times in history, a nation would build a small number of ships from one class, than see what was good or bad about them, than order more ships of a similar improved class if it worked, or try something else if it didn't. Or the budget would be cut someplace requiring either more design changes to make the ships cheaper, or there would be treaty limitations that would require design changes to get around the restriction, to make the most out of the treaty by building either ships up to the limits of the treaty, or building as many ships as possible that can perform said function, even if they are mildly inferior to other nations ships....you will have more of them than they will.

The Constitution-class starship is suppose to be a good ship. There were 12 like USS Enterprise by a certain point in 2267. We have not other real information on how many there were or if new ships were still being built. They refit (which is more like a reconstruction by definition) gives the ship more advanced engines and shields, as well as probably other systems. By 2285, the USS Enterprise still holds a warp speed record that the USS Excelsior will attempt to beat.

 

[Dr. Bashirs protege]

I agree. We see in TNG, not just DS9 that the federation has a large fleet. You have to have a fleet large enough to at lest patrol your territories. Kirk in TOS gave 1'000 worlds. We both know you can't do this with 12, 40 or even 100 ships. We also know they had cruisers( what the connie was) and battleships, also scouts. True that is from the movie, but they show TOS style deckplans.

Also, I do not think some folks grasp what a cruiser is. I can see why Starfleet likes them so much as they fill the role starfleet likes. Jack of all trades ships.

I've always felt that the galaxy class cruiser was a waste for example. For the same resources as a galaxy I can't even imagine how many defiant classes you could build. A dozen? More? That thing is so unnecessary Ive always felt that if you INSIST on having you're research vessels be able to protect themselves just divide the fleets research division into trios of two defiants and a nova class. The intrepid of course is much more reasonable of course, as is the sovereign. I didn't mean to rant, the naval military geek in me just can't abide the bloat of that ship

 

[Mirror Mirror]

As far as I can remember, there are no single class of battleships in the dreadnought, nor pre-dreadnought eras (1890s to 1950s) or forward that had more than nine ships in its class. There is only one large aircraft carrier class that has more than ten ships in it and that was the Essex-class with 24 built. (The Nimitz-class has ten ships, and the escort carriers were built on freighter hulls). There were few cruiser classes that has large number built of them aside from during the wars and in the post-Reagan era when the naval powers started to standardize on single hull designs for decades at a time.

Starfleet was based on the Modern navy terminology. Battleships evolved from Dreadnoughts, although Startrek did use that term. I simply shorthanded "Dreadnought" to battleship. as for the numbers, you have a point but this is one wet navy vs a space navy. With like a 1000 planets to cover. 12 ships of one class and 14 of that class are not gonna cover it. Although those numbers are likely what inspired the "12" from TOS.

The Arleigh Burke-class destroyer has been in production since 1988 with more contracted still to be constructed into the 2030s.

Indeed it has, but it was stopped and then started and was supposed to be phased out but after the issue with to so called "stealth" destoryers, it was cheaper to upgrade the plans and keep making em.

Most times in history, a nation would build a small number of ships from one class, than see what was good or bad about them, than order more ships of a similar improved class if it worked, or try something else if it didn't. Or the budget would be cut someplace requiring either more design changes to make the ships cheaper, or there would be treaty limitations that would require design changes to get around the restriction, to make the most out of the treaty by building either ships up to the limits of the treaty, or building as many ships as possible that can perform said function, even if they are mildly inferior to other nations ships....you will have more of them than they will.

Yeah, which is why the Connie may have been a small run. However, as it was 20 years old at the time of TOS it would have been either found to be wanting or put out in larger numbers. A budget for a military that covers a 1000 worlds is gonna be large enough to build a lot of ships. Look how many real world navies pump out with the budget of a single nation.

The Constitution-class starship is suppose to be a good ship. There were 12 like USS Enterprise by a certain point in 2267. We have not other real information on how many there were or if new ships were still being built. They refit (which is more like a reconstruction by definition) gives the ship more advanced engines and shields, as well as probably other systems. By 2285, the USS Enterprise still holds a warp speed record that the USS Excelsior will attempt to beat.

I agree the refit was a total rebuild. But the issue stands that if they were good ships the 12 ship concept from TOS need s to go. Just like the "starship class" was retconed out.

I've always felt that the galaxy class cruiser was a waste for example. For the same resources as a galaxy I can't even imagine how many defiant classes you could build. A dozen? More? That thing is so unnecessary Ive always felt that if you INSIST on having you're research vessels be able to protect themselves just divide the fleets research division into trios of two defiants and a nova class. The intrepid of course is much more reasonable of course, as is the sovereign. I didn't mean to rant, the naval military geek in me just can't abide the bloat of that ship

Well the Galaxy class was not a "cruiser" officially it was an "explorer". Unofficially it was more a battle cruiser or battleship. The Galaxy was really an experiment at the end of a small "Goldern age" The Romluans were all silent, the Cardassans war had ended, the klingons were allies. So the Grand experiment of a moving city in space with families and everything!

The one refitted during the war became less like they were designed and likely more as troop transports and pure out warships. It had the power.

As for ship classes. I say you need the ones we still use. Covettes and frigates for policing and patrol. Some Destroyers for screen and patrol duties and the staple of starfleet the multi-role cruiser. Although I can see some defined role classes. They would likeily need some escorts and real warships as well. Like Battlecrusiers and battleships. Honestly with TNG level of tech fighters become a threat and so carriers make sense as well.

 

[Ithekro]

In is possible that the Constitution-class (or Starship-class) is a part of a larger grouping of similar starships, just with incremental upgrades over a few decades. The British built a number of cruisers that are generally listed as the County-class cruisers, but they are in fact three or four different classes of cruisers (London, Kent, Norfolk, and sometimes York-classes, which was a reduced version of the County-class). So it is entirely possible that there were more than 12 hulls that were of the Constitution-class design, but only 12 of them were like USS Enterprise during 2267. There could easily have been another three or twelve dozen other ships of that hull style with some differences here and there (like the USS Constellation being a little bit different internally from USS Enterprise that Kirk misses the auxiliary control room while looking for it). Or there were a lot more ships, but as they get refitted, someone keeps renaming them with new class names. The Essex-class carriers had this issue from the 1940s until they were all decommissioned in the 1990s. They had many class names across that time depending on their hull configuration and purpose of their air wings. But after all were retired, they all returned to being simply "Essex-class aircraft carriers". Or it might have been something worse. If we take Discovery into account, there was a war with the Klingon Empire ten or so years prior to the events of Kirk's Five Year Mission. We see a bunch of Federation style ships engaging on combat in the trailer. It could be that there once were a lot more starships in Starfleet back in the 2250s, but the Klingons blew a whole lot of them up. Leaving the smaller Starfleet with some good ships defending larger potions of the Federation alone because there just were not enough ships anymore and it would take time to get the fleet back up to speed.

The refit, Miranda-class, and later Excelsior-class might even be a technology race against the Klingons in an effort to make sure that even with less ships Starfleet can easily match any three Klingon warships in a fight, making the Klingon numbers less useful against Federation cruisers, and to give Starfleet the speed to intercept any Klingon aggression within time. The cloaking devices throw a damper in that, but that's a different problem.

 

[Timo]

It's rather amusing to call the TMP thing "not a normal refit" when ships in the real world do get refitted more or less exactly like that.

Okay, so Starfleet may use the word "refit" (but in TMP, we don't hear this word) where navies on Earth might opt for more descriptive words like "rebuild" or "conversion" (but they usually don't). Yet a century ago, it was quite usual for a navy to take a ship, cut the hull to pieces and add a few meters here, a few there, plus all-new engines, all-new guns in all-new turrets (repositioned, added, removed), a different number of screws and propellers and an altogether different type of powerplant. The end result might have 30-40% commonality with the original, and utterly different looks, performance or purpose.

Granted, this sort of treatment was typically reserved for relatively large vessels, but ships down to destroyer size were involved on occasion, so this tells us nothing definite about the relative status of Kirk's ship. Also, international treaties ITRW may have promoted the recycling of old hulls rather than the construction of new ones, but many conversions preceded both these specific treaties and indeed the very concept of nations agreeing on anything much. In TMP, we can speculate on the role of the Organian treaty, of course.

The rebuilding ITRW very seldom served the ideals of standardizing. Utterly regardless of whether the originals or the end results were good ships or rotten ones, there'd be few of a kind originally and few of a kind ultimately. But testing of a concept through rebuilding, and then newbuilding en masse, did happen - we could easily see a TMP refit of less than a dozen ships verifying the solutions that would then see mass production in the form of Miranda, say.

As for "only twelve like her", well, if DSC shows us 147 starships on the first season and none are "like Kirk's", then the phrase gets splendid statistical support! (Even better if there's one like Kirk's on the second season, as a desperate publicity gimmick.)

Although of course DSC takes place a decade before TOS or thereabouts. At the loss rate indicated in TOS, there should have been about 20-25 ships "like Kirk's" in operation in the early 2250s...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

20 ships could take a massive part of the federation with how you have spread your theoretical 100 ships out. You could have a task force flying about killing those solo ships one by one and take out maybe 20% of the fleet before the Federation could respond. You have 100 ships, spread across 1000 worlds. It could take a year to get one ship from one play to another( or more) no way you can meet that level of threat. Heck if you could you have just left the rest of the Federation wide open. 20 ships, that is all you need to kill the Federation.

How does inflating the numbers help? The defender has 1000 ships spread across their territories, attacker will have 20 ships, or defenders has 10 000 attacker 2000. The situation remains the same, it is only the relative sizes of the fleets that matter.

Transports tend to be unarmed or lower power. even in the Federation. The ones we see in TOS are unarmed.

They are? All of them? When was this said?

You keep going back and forth on rather starfleet is large or tiny. Make your mind up.

I just understand that there are jobs that can be dealt with other ships than starships. Starships are the big guns.

And you really do not engage with the main point, which is what we actually see on TOS/movies. It is a common situation that there is some trouble on/near some fed world (even Earth) and Enterprise, a designated exploration vessel has to rush to help. And quite often they're the only one who can make it. This to me tells that there certainly are not fleets, not even single starships assigned to defend these worlds on permanent basis.

 

[Tuskin38]

Starfleet was based on the Modern navy terminology. Battleships evolved from Dreadnoughts, although Startrek did use that term. I simply shorthanded "Dreadnought" to battleship. as for the numbers, you have a point but this is one wet navy vs a space navy. With like a 1000 planets to cover. 12 ships of one class and 14 of that class are not gonna cover it. Although those numbers are likely what inspired the "12" from TOS.

The federation doesn’t have any battleships or dreadnoughts in canon

In the alternate reality of yesterday’s enterprise the enterprise was called a battleship (or was it battle cruiser?) but that was an alternate reality