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Speculating on what Curiosity may find

^^^ You sound like an authority on the subject. Perhaps you should send NASA your CV.

That's an obvious "run and hide" kind of comment, rather than facing the facts.

Terraforming is a science fiction concept, not a scientific one. Why? Because we're nowhere near capable of such technology.

IF Mars has fertile soil, it would be deeply buried because of the inhospitable conditions at the surface. But, that's a big, BIG *if* that any would exist. So... don't forget to send a few tons of fertile soil along with those seeds. Ah, but then... even if we did that, the soil would erode really fast due to the conditions. PLUS, the extreme temperature swings would kill off any plant life attempting to grow. The answer to that is a terrarium. But then, you're not terraforming the planet.

Now, it's true that some microbes are capable of withstanding extreme temperatures. But, from what I've read, there aren't any that would be useful to us in rebuilding an entire Martian eco-system to OUR specifications.

There's one HUGE problem with Mars: the distance from the Sun. Mars might have sustained life (as we know it) at some point... if the conditions were more suitable. Perhaps Mars started out more hospitable, but the distance from the sun didn't allow it to be sustained indefinitely. That after a million years or so, the planet decayed. But whatever we try to do, the sad fact is that Mars is just too far away from the sun for us to colonize, UNTIL we make significant advances in technology far beyond what we have today. We might exist there, but the planet wouldn't be terraformed, until we have the "now fictional" ability to constructively manipulate a planet's atmosphere. At present, we seem only capable of manipulating atmospheres in a detrimental way.

The key is being able to create a sustainable enclosed environment. We could do this if sufficient water could be extracted from the polar ice caps. But it would have to be done in such a way that doesn't quickly deplete it. Just like we have the looming problem with raw petroleum eventually running out, consumption of water and recycling it will always cause some loss. And this presents a huge problem when the percentage of water on Mars is a mere fraction compared to the Earth, where land masses are in the minority.


In short: It's folly to think we can "run to Mars" after ruining the Earth's atmosphere for human habitation. We have to fix things here, make our life on Earth sustainable in such a way to help keep the conditions friendly to humans. But at the rate we're going, it's very scary to think about what can't be undone. There are so many subtle inter-dependencies afoot, and we see so many people taking myopic viewpoints. It's not just about carbon. It's not just about temperature. It's many, MANY factors combining together. And, there's good evidence that we've influenced it. Whether or not it makes a big difference is hard to qualify, but the fact is that it's better to do something rather than nothing... better to be active rather than lazy. We've fixed some serious problems in the past, but that's been ones within our grasp. Problems that take a long time to unfold are usually out of our concern, where we wait until it hurts. But by then, it will be too late and we'll have to live in a very uncomfortable world going forward, if we can survive it at all.
 
See the MSL website for an updated composite photo. The transparent lens cover has a layer of dust on it. From what NASA disclosed, this was residual dust from the landing. Imagine how it would have been if it landed without the Sky Crane. They were seriously worried about a thick layer of dust coating Curiosity.

I wonder if the lens cap is capable of self-cleaning, or being momentarily removed for taking photos and then closed back over the lens?
 
I really don't understand how anyone can say this and possibly mean it. By any sane metric, the technology required to sustain a human society away from Earth is far, far more beyond our reach than the challenges posed by achieving a sustainable equilibrium between humanity and our terrestrial environment. And yes, accomplishing the latter might take a few centuries, but it's been millions of years since the last major asteroid-caused extinction crisis. We as a species can almost definitely put off terraforming Mars for another few hundred years.

Our civilzation has risen up in the interim of many natural disasters that could wipe us off the face of the earth. Asteroids, Super Volcanoes, Gamma Bursts, resource depletion, super viruses, but no, lets wait for "The Perfect Time" to expand beyond this one fragile ecology.

I'm not saying we need to suddenly start a crash course and spend every bit of the federal budget to creating a new state on Mars by tomorrow, but damn, do you really think the less than %1 we spend on NASA right now is too much to hedge our bets on the future existence of the human race? You wanna tell me where the lunacy is again?

If we wait for the right time, it will never arrive.
 
See the MSL website for an updated composite photo. The transparent lens cover has a layer of dust on it. From what NASA disclosed, this was residual dust from the landing. Imagine how it would have been if it landed without the Sky Crane. They were seriously worried about a thick layer of dust coating Curiosity.

I wonder if the lens cap is capable of self-cleaning, or being momentarily removed for taking photos and then closed back over the lens?

I took it that it was a translucent lens cap. The kind you place over the lens for protecting it from dust and debris when not in use. My understanding is this lens cap can be removed when they decide to do more photo-taking and get more into the nitty-gritty of this mission. (I suspect it could be replaced as well to protect the lens during dust storms and such.)

And we certainly have the technology to build and sustain a small Martian colony or to at least send people there. We know what needs to be done, how to do it, and we can certainly do it. It's just a matter of cost. This car-sized rover cost 10% of NASA's budget at almost $2 billion dollars. Even a small manned mission would cost much, much more than that and supplies for the astronauts for 2-3 year trip would have to be brought along.

It can be done but it'll be very, very expensive. Money no one will likely give NASA to do for a very damn long time.

But NASA's overall budget is about 1/2 of a percent of entire Federal Budget. In the grand scheme of things NASA doesn't cost anything to run. Meanwhile, the Defense Budget is $1 trillion dollars, a quarter of the Federal Budget. Certainly we need a hell of a lot more trimming and streamlining there than we need for NASA. Hell, I'd argue NASA needs a larger budget to at least get to a full percentage point.

Get upset at NASA's $2B budget is like getting mad at someone not donating an entire $100 to a homeless man and instead spending 50-cents of it to buy a pop and then giving the remaining $99.50 to the guy. Meanwhile, not getting upset with someone spending $25 out of $100 to buy something and giving the rest to charity.

NASA has a tiny budget.
 
do you really think the less than %1 we spend on NASA right now is too much to hedge our bets on the future existence of the human race?
If you review the thread, you'll find that I haven't actually advocated any reduction in NASA's budget; I've merely taken to task the notion that today's modest scientific efforts could plausibly make the difference between humanity's interplanetary survival and outright extinction. ;)


... And yes, I think the species can afford to wait a few centuries before constructing non-Earth colonies. But by all means, let us continue to send these robots in the meantime, I guess. Take pictures of rocks and all. :p
 
MarsCurioisty2.jpg
 
... And yes, I think the species can afford to wait a few centuries before constructing non-Earth colonies.

See, I don't think we can afford to wait that long, even if all we end up with is a barely self sufficient collection of 20 people huddled in a dome. Regardless, I don't think it will take that long for space technology to mature to a point where we can put domed settlements over a good portion of the solar system. Terra-forming? yeah, that's a couple centuries out at the least.
 
A small dome not much larger than the rover. Perfectly smooth with no hint of what material it's made of and perfectly clean. Despite being a curved surface it reflects a perfect mirror image back.
 
See, I don't think we can afford to wait that long, even if all we end up with is a barely self sufficient collection of 20 people huddled in a dome. Regardless, I don't think it will take that long for space technology to mature to a point where we can put domed settlements over a good portion of the solar system. Terra-forming? yeah, that's a couple centuries out at the least.

We can't afford to stop doing the WRONG thing on our planet and start a radical shift towards more sustainable living. It's far more economical to do that than to give up and think we can seek refuge in a huge dome on Mars.

As Gaith pointed out, the expenses incurred for just sending a large probe to explore Mars is a minute fraction compared to sending up a few people. Then multiply that by millions of people, but no more ... which leads to the cruel joke played on all the people that will be left behind in an ecological wasteland as a privileged few head out to live in the Martian luxury domes.

But that assumes an incredibly wild speculation that we'd be able to mine Mars to find the ores and minerals needed to produce the colony dome structures because, and get this, SHIPPING all the materials from Earth to Mars would be ridiculously expensive. And, even if miraculously such a feat was pulled off, Mars wouldn't be independent from Earth for a very, VERY long time. When a bulk of the elites have made their homes on Mars, and there's a bare bones minority of supporting interests still living on Earth, do you think the remaining population is going to sit idly by? No, they'd overrun whoever was controlling the remaining resources and simply let the Mars colonies suffer from lack of essential supplies. Even if it means launching ground to air missiles at every rocket launch.


There are two major technology hurdles that need to be overcome to colonize the moon and Mars: cheap sustainable power and more effective/efficient rocket engines. It will be at least a couple hundred years before we achieve this. And sustainable colonies (housing a few dozen people) would follow about a hundred years beyond that. Full terra-forming? That's very unlikely. Changing an entire eco-system requires not only highly sophisticated technology but enormous resources, many of which would need to come from Earth.

So... while it's fun to fantasize about real colonies on Mars, I really believe the possibility is much more remote.
 
Your whole post is predicated on the assumption that I said we should "give up" on the earth. I never said any such thing. Far from it. I merely point out that it would be best to start working on getting some of our eggs out of this basket and into another before something should happen.
 
Your whole post is predicated on the assumption that I said we should "give up" on the earth. I never said any such thing. Far from it. I merely point out that it would be best to start working on getting some of our eggs out of this basket and into another before something should happen.

You're right, that it wasn't you who suggested that we should "move on"... it was someone else. But my whole argument isn't predicated on that. It's on devoting full effort to fixing things at home before we dilute our attention with colonizing other worlds, not to mention concentrating our expenses accordingly. Let's get ourselves back to a solid sustainable foundation here on Earth first, which will give us a more formidable chance of developing the best technologies for spreading outward.
 
With NASA's budget so small, I really think we can do both at the same time...
 
^Exactly. As I said earlier in the thread. If you want real money to change the world, look at the defense budget. NASA's wouldn't make a difference.

Besides, I don't believe a "perfect time" will ever come. If we wait until we've created paradise on earth we'll never leave.
 
... all the people that will be left behind in an ecological wasteland as a privileged few head out to live in the Martian luxury domes
Would it not be both easier and cheaper just to erect the "Martian luxury domes" on the surface of the Earth?

:)
 
The best argument to be made for more probes such as these is that they pale in comparison to such genuine frivolities as, say, the NFL. But saying that we need to set up a Mars base pronto or go extinct forever! is not only nuts, the sheer looniness of it hurts the cause.

I'm all for the NFL expanding outside of their current markets, Jacksonville or Buffalo or Cleveland or some other awful team should move to LA. Putting a team on Mars would be a bold statement though.

This is the sport of not just our planet, but the entire solar system. The travel would be a bitch though. I think the Packers would have to get on a plane now to make it there for the 2013 opener.
 
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