Speculate: Why wasn't DS9 retrofitted w/Quantum Torps?
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Withers
Captain
The initial retrofitting was likely designed for standard photon torpedoes only. That retrofitting took place while the Quantum torpedo design was still relatively new (remember Voyager didn't have them either.) My guess is that the Federation weapons array that was added to DS9 during Way of the Warrior simply didn't have the capacity to fire them. That was a fairly massive under taking (the up grades) so it isn't all that surprising that they didn't up grade them again before the Second Battle of Deep Space Nine because seemingly there just wouldn't have been time.
As to why they didn't do it after that point (Sisko says after Operation Return that the station is a prime target for attack in You are Cordially Invited) is a really good question. According to Memory Alpha the Federation Attack Fighters seen in Sacrifice of Angels were firing Quantum Torpedoes (even though their halo was yellow rather than light blue) so that only further begs the question 'why?'
If they'd had 5,000 quantum torpedoes in addition to all the other armaments of the station the Dominion probably wouldn't have taken DS9 for six months. That would've meant the entire course of history would have changed (see: Dukat). That's just the big one I can think of off the top of my head but the addition of better weaponry during any given moment in DS9's history would have likely changed things.
As to why they didn't do it after that point (Sisko says after Operation Return that the station is a prime target for attack in You are Cordially Invited) is a really good question. According to Memory Alpha the Federation Attack Fighters seen in Sacrifice of Angels were firing Quantum Torpedoes (even though their halo was yellow rather than light blue) so that only further begs the question 'why?'
If they'd had 5,000 quantum torpedoes in addition to all the other armaments of the station the Dominion probably wouldn't have taken DS9 for six months. That would've meant the entire course of history would have changed (see: Dukat). That's just the big one I can think of off the top of my head but the addition of better weaponry during any given moment in DS9's history would have likely changed things.
-Withers-
So, let me get this straight: You say changing the name of a fictional weapon from photon torpedos to quantum torpedos would have changed the actual course of the series? What makes you think quantum torpedos are actually any better than photon torpedos (story-wise, that is)? I always thought they were just pieces of technobabble created to make the characters sound professional.
Memory Alpha says:
"Quantum torpedoes were first mentioned and seen in DS9: "Defiant". The effect used to display the torpedoes of the Federation attack fighters attacking the center of the Dominion lines had a yellowish halo instead of the bluish seen elsewhere.
In the first draft of the script of Star Trek: First Contact, a fleet of borg ships is defeated with the new quantum torpedoes. Entire Borg cubes are destroyed with single hits. Quantum torpedoes are described as oscillating and changing shape and color as they streak towards their targets, piercing through the hull like armor-piercing shells, exploding the borg ships from within in an explosion visually resembling a supernova. A similar concept of a highly destructive weapon, the transphasic torpedo, was later on used in VOY: "Endgame".
[edit] Technical Manual
Pho-torp Mark Q-II
The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual states that the basic mechanism of the quantum torpedo was first operated experimentally in 2236. The first warhead application was tested in 2355, afterwards the mass fabrication started. The Federation quantum torpedo model is called "Pho-torp Mark Q-II" and it has a casing differently shaped from the photon torpedo.
The quantum warhead relies on rapid energy extraction from zero-point vacuum. This is established from an 11-dimensional space-time membrane, twisted into a Genus-1 topology string, housed inside the ultraclean vacuum of a 1.38 meter-long teardrop shaped zero-point field reaction chamber. The detonation of a photon torpedo warhead, enriched with fluoronetic vapor, inside the torpedo powers a continuum distortion emitter. It expands the membrane and pinches it out of the background vacuum. The membrane forms into subatomic particles accompanied by a high-explosive energy release.
The Isoton figures given in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual are much smaller than the ones stated on-screen. (VOY: "Scorpion, Part II") The enriched photon warhead for example is rated only at 21.8 isotons and the membrane energy potential upon detonation is rated to be only at least 50 isotons.
Propulsion system of the quantum torpedo is a warp sustainer engine and four microfusion thrusters. The engine coils of the warp sustainer grab and hold a hand-off warp field from the torpedo launcher tube's sequential field induction coils. A miniature matter/antimatter fuel cell adds power to the hand-off field. When launched in warp flight, torpedo will continue to travel at warp, when launched at sublight, torpedo will travel at a high sublight speed, but will not cross the warp threshold. The quantum torpedo uses a bio-neural gel processor for flight control, and a thoron web to block countermeasure radiation.
Deep Space 9 was armed later on with quantum torpedoes. Class-8 and class-9 probe variants also use the quantum torpedo casing. There are apparently also micro quantum torpedoes. (pg. 77, 82, 85, 86, 130 and Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual pg. 129)
edit Apocrypha
The video game manual for Star Trek: Starfleet Command III explains the origins of the torpedo in detail:
"The quantum torpedo is an advanced heavy weapon developed by Starfleet as a part of its Advanced Defense Initiative to combat Borg incursions. As the photon torpedo reached what many Starfleet researchers agreed was its highest possible explosive yield, a group of engineers at the Starfleet R&D facility on Groombridge 273-2A began investigating methods for achieving a higher release of energy from a projectile of equal dimensions to the photon torpedo."
In the videogame Star Trek: Elite Force II, the quantum burst (β) launcher is a heavy hand-held anti-infantry weapon, that fires mini-quantum torpedoes. The torpedoes can be guided to their targets using a phased laser sight.
The video game Star Trek: Bridge Commander establishes that quantum torpedoes are available in more limited quantities when compared to the more common photon torpedoes, and as such are used sparingly. A Sovereign-class vessel in the game is depicted wielding a maximum complement of sixty quantum torpedoes
I get the impression quantum torpedoes were relatively rare and required a different launching system from photon torpedoes. Perhaps Starfleet was unable to get enough material out to DS9, and just felt it was better to keep the station well-stocked with photons. Or, alternately, maybe the Bajoran government was against installing quantum torpedoes for whatever reason.
I always assumed it was because quantum torpedos were needed on ships out on the front lines.
It would make sense for the station, the number one prime piece of real estate in the quadrant, to be equipped with the most powerful weapons. But, I guess they were still a somewhat rare luxury, and needed elsewhere more urgently.
It would make sense for the station, the number one prime piece of real estate in the quadrant, to be equipped with the most powerful weapons. But, I guess they were still a somewhat rare luxury, and needed elsewhere more urgently.
The only time DS9 really had the NEED, where the quantum torpedeos might have made a difference, was when the Dominion invaded. Given that the plan seemed to be 'put up a fight, but don't get yourselves killed,' that they knew that the Dominion wanted the station intact, and that Bajor now had a treaty with the Dominion so they'd be protected, the Federation probably didn't want the Dominon to get their hands on a boatload of one of the most powerful weapons in their arsenal.
The station put up a fine performance in Way of the Warrior without the quantums, which were still just entering circulation among the Starfleet ships, and that was the only other occasion the station was seen to engage in a battle. It's possible after the station was retaken, the quantum torpedo launchers were installed, they just never had a chance to use them.
The station put up a fine performance in Way of the Warrior without the quantums, which were still just entering circulation among the Starfleet ships, and that was the only other occasion the station was seen to engage in a battle. It's possible after the station was retaken, the quantum torpedo launchers were installed, they just never had a chance to use them.
No, that's not what I thought at all. In-universe quantum torpedos are supposed to be better; I get that. But what difference do they actually make story-wise? It's just a different name and a slightly different special effect. The writers could write a story where a ship is destroyed by one photon torpedo. The next week they could write a story where a ship of the same type is destroyed by twenty quantum torpedos. They're just ficitonal weapons doing whatever a writer wants them to do. That's why I don't see the point in speculating how the actual course of the show would have changed if they had weapons with a different name. That's all.
To be fair, while we're told that quantum torpedoes are more powerful, we're never told by how much, so it makes it hard to quantify their value. Further complicating things is that prior to the quantum torpedo, we also saw photons of various classes, yields, and performances (like the Type VI comet-trail torpedo, or the Type X wide-explosion torpedo). And narratively speaking, in DS9, both types did the exact same thing, which was blow stuff up. We never really saw the Defiant use photons, found them ineffective for a goal, and then switched to quantums instead. We were never told that quantums would, say, drain shields better than photons , or warps physical matter compared to a photon.
For all we know, a quantum is 1.5x stronger than your average photon, or maybe 15x. I feel that answering this question would explain its relative rarity in Trek.
Half of the discussions we have around here could be responded to this way, it's all fictional.
In universe, the history could have gone in a different direction if DS9 had been outfitted with more advanced weapon systems. It's a perfectly valid question, from an in universe point of view, which is the way we usually pursue questions of this nature around here.
It was always going to be a losing battle, no matter how many maxi-death-hyper-neutron-blaster-uber-howitzers that Starfleet equipped the station with. The Dominion had numerical superiority, and had thousands of smaller attack ships. They were simply over-whelmed.
During the Battle of DS9 2. the first waves were repelled by DS9 (small fighters), it wasn't until Dukat's Battle Cruiser opened up that DS9's shield's begin to buckle.
The Battle Cruiser was hit w/a few photons, to no avail.
QT's should have destroyed the BC just as it (easily) did the Breen Heavy Battleship.
The Ent's QT's did a lot of damage to the Borg Sphere (I know the critics will say the Cube had taken damage, but dang 2 QT's?
I doubt giving DS9 quantum torpedoes would have made a difference in the battle. In fact quantum torpedoes did not seem that much more effective in DS9. If you take the battle we saw photon torpedoes destroying Jem'Hadar attack ships in three hits. In "Valiant" and "Siege of AR-558" we saw four quantum torpedoes used to destroy the same type of vessel, might only take three but the Defiant always fired its weapons systems in tandem. You never see just one of the launchers fire or just not of the phaser cannons.
As for the Breen warship, I'd question using it as a yardstick for the Jem'Hadar battle cruiser. It looked to be twice the size of the Defiant in that episode but later it was appeared to be not much larger.
As for the Breen warship, I'd question using it as a yardstick for the Jem'Hadar battle cruiser. It looked to be twice the size of the Defiant in that episode but later it was appeared to be not much larger.
yeah, you're right, I just chalked it up to either writer/FX inconsistencies or just trying to be cool when shooting off multiple torps.
Nothing looks neater, it trek universe, than multiple torps ripping into a ship's hull
^Never liked it. If a torpedo penetrated, they should destroy the entire ship, unless for some reason, future weapons use sub-kiloton* yields. Starships should not be 19th century sailing vessels, and Trek battles should not be fought with cannonballs.
*Or, "isoton." Which is like a ton, but arranged differently.
I'm also not too fond of the ZPE generator notion of quantum torpedoes, but that's a whole different story.
Anyway, I reckon Q-torps were somewhat more expensive--and with the added storage space aboard DS9, magazine capacity wasn't at a premium, so quantum torpedoes were used for starships in order to maximize destructive capacity per unit of volume, whereas DS9 was left with cheap, less powerful pho-torps, since it could carry tens of thousands and just double or triple up to make up destructive power.
Also, for no reason whatsoever, after "Sacrifice of Angels," Bajor stopped being on the front lines. Seriously, either they moved the planet a hundred light years, or the three-dimensional "lines" around Cardassia and Bajor looked like Goddamn Verdun.
*Or, "isoton." Which is like a ton, but arranged differently.
I'm also not too fond of the ZPE generator notion of quantum torpedoes, but that's a whole different story.
Anyway, I reckon Q-torps were somewhat more expensive--and with the added storage space aboard DS9, magazine capacity wasn't at a premium, so quantum torpedoes were used for starships in order to maximize destructive capacity per unit of volume, whereas DS9 was left with cheap, less powerful pho-torps, since it could carry tens of thousands and just double or triple up to make up destructive power.
Also, for no reason whatsoever, after "Sacrifice of Angels," Bajor stopped being on the front lines. Seriously, either they moved the planet a hundred light years, or the three-dimensional "lines" around Cardassia and Bajor looked like Goddamn Verdun.
That's one thing I noticed about TOS -- the shields seemed to be proportionately a lot stronger than later vessels, but maybe for good reason; if the shields go down, the ship was doomed! No ifs, ands, or buts about it... no hull breaches or structural integrity issues in battle. If something could get through the shields, it was a genuine threat.
One angle could be the Provisional Government forbid it since it was federation technology and they still were not a member of UFP which in turn made Sisko's mission a failure.
Withers
Captain
I just get the feeling you didn't like DS9 all that much. I could be wrong but one half of that sentence had nothing to do with the second half and was seemingly made just to be spiteful to a fictional character. I could be wrong...
It doesn't hold water anyway; The Provisional Government allowed Starfleet to upgrade the station with a Federation Weapons Array just before and then during Way of the Warrior. If they allowed Federation photons and phasers why not quantum torpedoes as well?
I'd also point out that Bajor would've been admitted to the Federation were it not for Sisko's vision from the prophets and his insistence as the Emissary that Bajor wait. It's pretty likely that after the war was over Bajor would join the Federation (which in turn would have made Sisko's mission a success.)
-Withers-
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