Space Seed: Yes, Chekov was on the ship. See Catspaw.

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Captrek, Jul 2, 2010.

  1. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I’ve often heard complaints about Khan remembering Chekov when Space Seed occurred before Chekov joined the crew. However, it didn’t. Although Space Seed is a Season 1 episode and Catspaw is a Season 2 episode, Catspaw has the earlier stardate, and Chekov appears in that episode.

    Notably, Chekov does not appear at the navigator’s station in Catspaw. He mans the science station in Spock’s absence and performs some engineering tasks. So it’s reasonable to suppose that Catspaw and Space Seed occurred before Chekov joined the regular bridge crew, but after he joined the Enterprise crew.

    Given that he showed proficiency in engineering tasks, he may have been on the engineering deck when Khan seized control of it. Chekov being Chekov, he likely would have tried something heroic and stupid, resulting in Khan learning his name and remembering him.
     
  2. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've always thought Chekov was below decks during early TOS, and Khan bumped into him off-camera.

    IIRC one of the novels mentions Chekov having led a failed attempt to retake engineering during "Space Seed".
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Indeed.

    As far as nitpicks go, I always thought this one was pretty silly given that it's so easy to explain.
     
  4. TeaKirk

    TeaKirk Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In one of my fanfics, Chekov does get owned by Khan and I mean bad:devil:
     
  5. jtkirk

    jtkirk Captain Captain

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    I thought stardates varied from each sector of space, and that an episode with an earlier stardate didn't necessarily mean it came before an episode with a later stardate??
     
  6. jtkirk

    jtkirk Captain Captain

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    I found this Gene Roddenberry explanation on stardates from the 1968 book "The Making of Star Trek"

     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    IMO,unless its specifically stated when they joined, every crew member has been on the ship since the cruise started. So Chekov has been on board since at least after "Mudd's Women".
     
  8. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Big ship. Lotsa crew. Easy 'nuff.
     
  9. Vonstadt

    Vonstadt Captain Captain

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    Exactly how I always saw this one. :bolian:

    Vons
     
  10. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Stardates are never proof of anything.
     
  11. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...However, TOS makes so much more sense in stardate order than in either airdate or production order. Case in proof, Chekov's first appearance in "Catspaw" coming before "Space Seed".

    This is completely by accident, of course, but for once it's a very welcome accident.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  12. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think it’s another happy coincidence that Chekov doesn’t appear at the navigator’s station in Catspaw. This establishes him as a member of the Enterprise crew, but does not give him the position that would later make him a constant presence on the bridge.

    Motivated in part by your comments on this subject, I am currently in the process of watching the entire series in stardate order. For episodes that have no stardates, I have decided (rather arbitrarily) to peg them in their position in the production order. For example, TCOTEOF, which has no stardate, is 28th in the production order, so I’m watching it as the 28th episode. In the case of stardate overlaps, I go by the earliest stardate given in the episode, so The Corbomite Manuever (1512.2 - 1514.1) comes before The Man Trap (1513.1 - 1513.8) and The Gamesters of Triskelion (3211.7 - 3259.2) comes before Metamorphosis (3219.8 - 3220.3).

    My order is below. So far, I’m up through What Are Little Girls Made Of? Miri is next.

    Code:
    [U]S[/U]  [U]D[/U]   [U]STRDAT[/U]  [U]TITLE[/U]
    1  1   1312.4  Where No Man Has Gone Before
    1  2   1329.8  Mudd's Women
    1  4   1512.2  The Corbomite Maneuver
    1  1   1513.1  The Man Trap
    1  1   1533.6  Charlie X
    1  2   1672.1  The Enemy Within
    1  2   1704.2  The Naked Time
    1  5   1709.2  Balance of Terror
    1  6   2124.5  The Squire of Gothos
    1  3   2712.4  What Are Little Girls Made Of?
    1  3   2713.5  Miri
    1  3   2715.1  Dagger of the Mind
    1  5   2817.6  The Conscience of the King
    1  6   2821.5  The Galileo Seven
    1  7   2947.3  Court Martial
    1  4   3012.4  The Menagerie, Part I
    1  4   3013.1  The Menagerie, Part II
    2      3018.2  Catspaw
    1  5   3025.3  Shore Leave
    1  6   3045.6  Arena
    1  9   3087.6  The Alternative Factor
    1  7   3113.2  Tomorrow is Yesterday
    1  8   3141.9  Space Seed
    1  7   3156.2  The Return of the Archons
    1  8   3192.1  A Taste of Armageddon
    1  9   3196.1  The Devil in the Dark
    1  9   3198.4  Errand of Mercy
    1 10   Unknwn  The City on the Edge of Forever
    2      3211.7  The Gamesters of Triskelion
    2      3219.8  Metamorphosis
    1 10   3287.2  Operation — Annihilate!
    2      3372.7  Amok Time
    1  8   3417.3  This Side of Paradise
    2      3468.1  Who Mourns for Adonais?
    2      3478.2  The Deadly Years
    2      3497.2  Friday's Child
    2      3541.9  The Changeling
    2      3614.9  Wolf in the Fold
    2      Unknwn  Mirror, Mirror
    2      3619.2  Obsession
    2      3715.0  The Apple
    2      3842.3  Journey to Babel
    2      4040.7  Bread and Circuses
    2      4202.9  The Doomsday Machine
    2      4211.4  A Private Little War
    2      4307.1  The Immunity Syndrome
    3      4372.5  Elaan of Troyius
    3      4385.3  Spectre of the Gun
    2      Unknwn  A Piece of the Action
    2      4513.3  I, Mudd
    2      4523.3  The Trouble with Tribbles
    2      Unknwn  Patterns of Force
    2      4657.5  By Any Other Name
    2      Unknwn  The Omega Glory
    2      Unknwn  Assignment: Earth
    2      4729.4  The Ultimate Computer
    2      4768.3  Return to Tomorrow
    3      4842.6  The Paradise Syndrome
    3      5027.3  The Enterprise Incident
    3      5029.5  And the Children Shall Lead
    3      5121.5  The Empath
    3      5423.4  The Mark of Gideon
    3      5431.4  Spock's Brain
    3      5476.3  For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
    3      5630.7  Is There in Truth No Beauty?
    3      Unknwn  Day of the Dove
    3      5693.2  The Tholian Web
    3      5710.5  Wink of an Eye
    3      Unknwn  That Which Survives
    3      5718.3  Whom Gods Destroy
    3      5725.3  The Lights of Zetar
    3      5730.2  Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
    3      5784.2  Plato's Stepchildren
    3      5818.4  The Cloud Minders
    3      5832.3  The Way to Eden
    3      5843.7  Requiem for Methuselah
    3      5906.4  The Savage Curtain
    3      5928.5  Turnabout Intruder
    3      5943.7  All Our Yesterdays
     
  13. Michael

    Michael [ˈmɪçaːʔeːl] Moderator

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    When Kirk is using his corbomite bluff in The Deadly Years, I take Chekov's knowing smirk as a hint that he was aboard the Enterprise at least since The Corbomite Maneuver. ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  14. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    I've used Chekov's placement on the ship in TOS by stardate order for many years now during discussions in which someone says there's no way that Khan could possibly remember him in "Space Seed."

    Well, yes, Virginia, there is a way.
    :D

    One of the very first Trek novels I've read (back in the ancient pre-internet days) simply had Chekov as a newly-commissioned junior navigator on the Enterprise who worked on the "night shift" prior to "Catspaw."
     
  15. klh

    klh Ensign Red Shirt

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    I remember reading this explanation in my younger days. (I read that book until it fell apart.) It didn't make much sense to me then, and it still doesn't. It sounds like a techno-gibberish way of saying "don't pay attention to the stardate".

    But since I never saw the original run (I was just a baby in 1966), the airdate order doesn't really matter to me.
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's somewhat ironic that the stardates are the most useful in TOS, where zero attention was paid to creating them, and least so towards the later spinoff shows that utilized them in an orderly manner...

    Some of the overlap cases are probably stardates "misspoken by the characters" (even if the actors read the lines correctly). It makes no sense for the stardates in "Triskelion" to suddenly jump from 3211 to the high 3250s in the beginning of the episode, for example, when the time interval there is rather explicitly just a few hours. So perhaps the episode begins with three-two-five-one?

    Also, "Galileo Seven" doesn't really need to overlap with "Conscience", since the last stardate in that preceding episode was a reference to a hypothetical near-future mission, and that one was no doubt set aside because of the "Galileo" emergency mission.

    The other overlap cases require more handwaving or looking the other way. But I'd hate to use them as proof that stardates "don't work". ;)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Pindar

    Pindar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Doesn't Walter Koenig explain it by saying Chekov was in sick bay throughout the episode?

    That's as good a reason as any.
     
  18. Kirk here

    Kirk here Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I guess in Trekdom, 2 wrongs *do* make a right.

    ;o)
     
  19. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. And this makes a lot more sense than retconning Catspaw to take place before Space Seed, which is ridiculous regardless of the f***ing stardates.
     
  20. RookieBatman

    RookieBatman Commodore Commodore

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    It was Ex Machina, by Christopher L. Bennett, who mentioned one time that the explanation was first given in some supplemental materials from the DC Star Trek comic.

    Nice work there. That picture made me smile. :techman:

    Although, not to take it too seriously, but couldn't Chekov just have heard about the maneuver later on? (I'm sure it would have been talked about a lot.)

    I think that's exactly the spirit in which it was intended. The stardates were meant to represent a futuristic dating system, and to indicate that since they're in space, it doesn't make as much sense to go by the Earth calender. But back then, continuity between episodes wasn't as rigorous as now, so they knew it was unlikely that they could keep them in order. So, that was Gene's way of saying, "it's really no big deal, and episodes aren't intended to be in stardate order."
    For me, it's Occam's Razor. Production order is the order they were made, so since they didn't plan any inter-episode linkage, nothing that happened in the tenth episode produced could possibly affect what happens in the ninth. I always prefer to go according to what the original artists had in mind at the time, and that certainly wasn't the random numeral codes they tossed in there.
    Of course, it is personal preference, as with any subjective question of continuity. I just get kind of galled when people act like stardate order makes more sense. What about episodes like "Mudd's Women," where the stardates go backward? It seems to me that's a clear indication that they aren't intended to function as a linear timescale. And I don't buy the fact that the characters just misspoke at those times. These are Captain's Logs; what's the point of stating the time for the record if the captain isn't absolutely sure it's correct?