Sorry...I get this way with too little sleep and to much caffeine...
Short version:
I think ships have both kinds of shields. Bubble shields and form-fitting shields.
The end.
Sovereign Class question
- Thread starter Shane Houston
- Start date
Sorry...I get this way with too little sleep and to much caffeine...
Short version:
I think ships have both kinds of shields. Bubble shields and form-fitting shields.
The end.
Yes, but it's not a canon cannon.
The refit E-D and its canon is powerful. But it has to put another ship in its line of fire. The E-E could take it.
While it might not be particularly fast, I think Santaman's avatar would rip up a Sovereign pretty good.
The machine in my avatar is Bagger 260, at 8250 tons its already quite large.
This one however is the largest moving object on land, there are four or five of this particular size.
These are 225meters long 96 meters high, undercarriage width 45 meters and weigh in at 13.500 tons, the bucketwheel itself is 21.6 meters tall and it has no problem with accidently picking up a 40 ton bulldozer.. they run on electricity and require about 16.5 Megawatts.
The E-E would be pulverized before it would know what hit it, as for why? simply because I say so..
This one however is the largest moving object on land, there are four or five of this particular size.
These are 225meters long 96 meters high, undercarriage width 45 meters and weigh in at 13.500 tons, the bucketwheel itself is 21.6 meters tall and it has no problem with accidently picking up a 40 ton bulldozer.. they run on electricity and require about 16.5 Megawatts.
The E-E would be pulverized before it would know what hit it, as for why? simply because I say so..
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I think people are giving the Defiant way too much credibility and other ships next to none.
I realize it was designed to be a purely combat oriented vessel, but so was the Prometheus (for deep space tactical assignments if memory serves).
Voyager for example was an Intrepid class ship, however, based on the creators of the show itself, the ship was stated to have defenses/offenses comparable/equal to those of a Galaxy class ship (except that it's smaller in size, faster and carries a lower torpedo count - however probably much larger than mere 36 because it was launched for a 2 week mission with practically no long-term supplies).
I would surmise that smaller ships could be comparable in combat and power levels to much larger ones such as the Sovereign.
However, if we were to take into account possible upgrades and limitations of scalability, it's possible that a Galaxy class ship would be on par with a Sovereign class as would the Prometheus be.
Intrepid might be on par with an upgraded galaxy class (if SF was able to upgrade it to such levels- however if the very tiny Defiant was able to match larger ships in fire-power, then it stands to reason Intrepids can as well since they would also implement compact power systems with less luxuries compared to larger ships, and the Defiant has no luxuries with internals fully optimized for combat systems).
I realize it was designed to be a purely combat oriented vessel, but so was the Prometheus (for deep space tactical assignments if memory serves).
Voyager for example was an Intrepid class ship, however, based on the creators of the show itself, the ship was stated to have defenses/offenses comparable/equal to those of a Galaxy class ship (except that it's smaller in size, faster and carries a lower torpedo count - however probably much larger than mere 36 because it was launched for a 2 week mission with practically no long-term supplies).
I would surmise that smaller ships could be comparable in combat and power levels to much larger ones such as the Sovereign.
However, if we were to take into account possible upgrades and limitations of scalability, it's possible that a Galaxy class ship would be on par with a Sovereign class as would the Prometheus be.
Intrepid might be on par with an upgraded galaxy class (if SF was able to upgrade it to such levels- however if the very tiny Defiant was able to match larger ships in fire-power, then it stands to reason Intrepids can as well since they would also implement compact power systems with less luxuries compared to larger ships, and the Defiant has no luxuries with internals fully optimized for combat systems).
Maneuverability doesn't really mean that much as far as Trek technology goes.
The only time this would be useful is if the targeting scanners are off (otherwise Phaser should never miss their targets) and the tactical officer is a lousy shot (which is not supposed to be the case given their supposed training).
In regards to the beating the Defiant can take... it's ablative armor can take only a couple of shots, and not a 'massive assault'.
An actual example of where armor based technology was in fact viable was in Endgame.
Granted, Voyager's deployable armor effectively replaced the energy shields as a 'near-impenetrable shell' (at least for virtually all weapons, except the Borg - which would be able to penetrate it after some time).
The Defiant would in essence be a mosquito.
One that packs a bit of a punch mind you, but I don't think it would be able to go up against the Sovereign class.
It was able to go up against an extensively upgraded Excelsior class and come out as evenly matched, but power-wise, we don't know if it's on par with larger ships like the Intrepid, Galaxy or the Sovereign.
We know the Intrepid was meant to be a downsized Galaxy class though given it's specifications.
For the Defiant though, it was barely able to hold on it's own in numerous engagements (which begs to question just how capable it actually is).
The only time this would be useful is if the targeting scanners are off (otherwise Phaser should never miss their targets) and the tactical officer is a lousy shot (which is not supposed to be the case given their supposed training).
In regards to the beating the Defiant can take... it's ablative armor can take only a couple of shots, and not a 'massive assault'.
An actual example of where armor based technology was in fact viable was in Endgame.
Granted, Voyager's deployable armor effectively replaced the energy shields as a 'near-impenetrable shell' (at least for virtually all weapons, except the Borg - which would be able to penetrate it after some time).
The Defiant would in essence be a mosquito.
One that packs a bit of a punch mind you, but I don't think it would be able to go up against the Sovereign class.
It was able to go up against an extensively upgraded Excelsior class and come out as evenly matched, but power-wise, we don't know if it's on par with larger ships like the Intrepid, Galaxy or the Sovereign.
We know the Intrepid was meant to be a downsized Galaxy class though given it's specifications.
For the Defiant though, it was barely able to hold on it's own in numerous engagements (which begs to question just how capable it actually is).
Saquist
Commodore
Tell that to the Neghvar that couldn't get a lock
Or even the Dominion Battle ship that could put two disrupter shots on Valiant untill the crew just gave up mid battle. INFACT Valiant took a confirmed 30+ shots (dual and single) WITH NO SHIELDS UP AT ALL!
Defiant lasted two minutes with no shields against a Klingon Vorcha class ship. On screen this amounted to 4 shots but it's highly unlikely the klingons fired only for shots sucessfully into the Defiant. Clearly since Dukat says "at least another minute" then the scene was abbreviated. So they potrayed 24 seconds and 4 shots....So proportionallly Defiant Took 20 something shots from a Vorcha class cruiser....WOW. (only moderate damage)
In TNG the Vorcha destroyed a Bird of Prey of much larger size in just one SHOT with no shields down. Clearly Defiant is a heavy weight fighter.
In the right hands Defiant would be a considerable danger to Sovereign. It could deal out amazing amounts of firepower and absorb more than it's fair share. Depending on which Sovereign it fought...
If it were the First Contact Sovereign....it would be a clear Defiant win. No phasers at all on Sovereign stardrive and no after torpedoes...Defiant would have it's way...literally.
The nemesis Sovereign is a bit better equipped but not by much. The phasers are the weapons that would keep Defiant at bay and Soverign only has a few aft firing phasers. It's weak spot is the lower aft since the saucer has 8 dorsal aft firing phasers but only 6 ventral aft firing phasers. I'm sure the aft photon launchers would be enough to discourage Defiant from hanging around the rear.
Its one of the reasons Sovereign is such a poor design is it's awful phaser coverage.
Many people don't trust what we've seen on screen for Defiant against larger captial ship's envoking Hero Shields and such but it seems when Defiant's are used correctly they are nearly unstoppable
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Don't make me go and get Christopher in here...Depends on one's personal canon..so I think that cannon is canon..
^ 
It would make sense to me for the Defiant's ablative armor to have a more limited duration, since its design purpose is to melt off with the blast and take some of the concussive force along with it. It's nice for protection, but unless you have a lot of it on the ship, it's gone quickly in an intense fight.
It would make sense to me for the Defiant's ablative armor to have a more limited duration, since its design purpose is to melt off with the blast and take some of the concussive force along with it. It's nice for protection, but unless you have a lot of it on the ship, it's gone quickly in an intense fight.Let's keep in mind that the only reason the Defiant usually came out on top against bigger threats was predominantly because it was in fact a hero ship.
Now, I'm all for the prospect that small ships can be made to be on par with their larger counterparts, however, I'm not entirely sold on the premise a Defiant could in fact match a Sovereign in terms of firepower.
As for the Defiant vs the Vor'cha... if you recall, the Defiant had to initiate a tractor beam in order to disrupt the targeting scanners.
The only real reason ships phasers or disruptors miss their targets (when the ship is fine) is mainly due to drama.
The Defiant's armor did not withstand 24 shots as far as I recall because most of the shots missed them.
I would be more inclined to think that it would be able to take a handful of shots.
The armor was not portrayed to be anywhere on the same level as the Voyager 'Endgame' deployable armor for example (which was far more advanced in comparison).
In any case, we know the Defiant was on par with an upgraded Excelsior class.
Was the upgraded Lakota on par with the Galaxy or Sovereign class ships?
We don't know.
Perhaps relatively close.
Now, I'm all for the prospect that small ships can be made to be on par with their larger counterparts, however, I'm not entirely sold on the premise a Defiant could in fact match a Sovereign in terms of firepower.
As for the Defiant vs the Vor'cha... if you recall, the Defiant had to initiate a tractor beam in order to disrupt the targeting scanners.
The only real reason ships phasers or disruptors miss their targets (when the ship is fine) is mainly due to drama.
The Defiant's armor did not withstand 24 shots as far as I recall because most of the shots missed them.
I would be more inclined to think that it would be able to take a handful of shots.
The armor was not portrayed to be anywhere on the same level as the Voyager 'Endgame' deployable armor for example (which was far more advanced in comparison).
In any case, we know the Defiant was on par with an upgraded Excelsior class.
Was the upgraded Lakota on par with the Galaxy or Sovereign class ships?
We don't know.
Perhaps relatively close.
Saquist
Commodore
Valiant took more hits, man. And Defiant was destroyed.
That's because sources would have us believe that Defiant is 120 to 170 meters long. If Star Fleet had the tech to put that amount of power in such a small compact ship then apparently Sovereign class ships should unstopabble in comparison. By estimation Defiant is north of 200 meters on the level of Miranda class ship with 8 Decks.
From what I heard they were deflecting 50 % of the fire.
In that case the Klingons only fired four shots in the space of 2 minutes. Valiant took way more shots with out ANY ablative armor. So either the AWESOME Dominion Battleship was extremely weak despite the 3x the strength of a Galaxy Class claim of Defiant with stood a helleva assault as Sisko implies when he says "Looks like we're about to find out just how much this ship can take."
The only reason we have Voyagers' armors lofty perception is because they went up against the unstoppable Borg.
What we should know is that Defiant pulled it's punches. Script wise these ships never do what they should have done. Which is come in with quantums and phasers blazing. But at least defiant was the only ship to get off any torpedoes that we saw. I seriously doubt that slow Excellsior could line up those tubes on Defiant like it was buzzing around around.
I suspect so.
We KNOW that the Galaxy's phasers couldn't stand up to the Dominion Attack ships shields with 5 minutes of sustained attacks and 2 runnabouts as back up. Defiant can take them apart in 3 shots. If Lakota has any upgrades against the Dominion it's not going to be to a Galaxy Class upgrade which proved completely ineffectual.
To be fair, the Oddyssey went up against the Dominion Attack ships when most about the Dominion was an unknown to the Federation.
Since then, I would surmise that the Defiant might have been modified when released under Sisko's command in order to better withstand Dominion weapons.
Similar modifications would ensue throughout the fleet.
In the case of the Valiant... all I can say is the armor held for as long as the plot demanded (plus two of the show's regulars were there, so it was awarded 'temporary hero status').
Like Warp speed, the armor is dependent on the plot.
Although, that DID happen well into the war.
The battle with the Vor'cha occurred before the war started (as far as I remember).
And yes, while the Vor'chas weapons were missing by 50%, the Klingons did not fire at the Defiant in rapid succession.
It was sporadic at best (as were the scored shots on the armor), otherwise we would have heard or seen it take much more shots than a handful.
Besides, the dialogue did state that the armor wouldn't hold for long, which is why they initiated the tractor beam trick.
As far as the Lakota goes... ah, while the Defiant may have been zipping around the ship (more or less - the Lakota being by about 30% slower), it WAS firing phaser beams rather insistently.
But yes, neither ships went at each other to the max, still, even with phasers alone, it was an even match... suggesting that both ships were on par with each other.
But honestly, we still don't know if this is close to the (upgraded) Galaxy or Sovereign class ships in terms of firepower.
The Defiant can pack larger firepower for it's size because it has none of the luxuries.
But even then, it's possible it may not be on the exactly the same level as a Galaxy class.
The Intrepid on the other hand is much larger and while it DOES have certain crew comforts, it's not the same like on the Galaxy, which probably gives it the ability to pack more compact combat systems like the Defiant does, and is thus able to match larger ships (heck it sports the same offensive weapons ... torpedo count being lower though, but I suspect it can hold at least 4x as much - seeing the Defiant was left with 46 torpedoes after fighting the Cardassian/Dominion fleets, and that ship is 3x smaller by comparison).
Since then, I would surmise that the Defiant might have been modified when released under Sisko's command in order to better withstand Dominion weapons.
Similar modifications would ensue throughout the fleet.
In the case of the Valiant... all I can say is the armor held for as long as the plot demanded (plus two of the show's regulars were there, so it was awarded 'temporary hero status').
Like Warp speed, the armor is dependent on the plot.
Although, that DID happen well into the war.
The battle with the Vor'cha occurred before the war started (as far as I remember).
And yes, while the Vor'chas weapons were missing by 50%, the Klingons did not fire at the Defiant in rapid succession.
It was sporadic at best (as were the scored shots on the armor), otherwise we would have heard or seen it take much more shots than a handful.
Besides, the dialogue did state that the armor wouldn't hold for long, which is why they initiated the tractor beam trick.
As far as the Lakota goes... ah, while the Defiant may have been zipping around the ship (more or less - the Lakota being by about 30% slower), it WAS firing phaser beams rather insistently.
But yes, neither ships went at each other to the max, still, even with phasers alone, it was an even match... suggesting that both ships were on par with each other.
But honestly, we still don't know if this is close to the (upgraded) Galaxy or Sovereign class ships in terms of firepower.
The Defiant can pack larger firepower for it's size because it has none of the luxuries.
But even then, it's possible it may not be on the exactly the same level as a Galaxy class.
The Intrepid on the other hand is much larger and while it DOES have certain crew comforts, it's not the same like on the Galaxy, which probably gives it the ability to pack more compact combat systems like the Defiant does, and is thus able to match larger ships (heck it sports the same offensive weapons ... torpedo count being lower though, but I suspect it can hold at least 4x as much - seeing the Defiant was left with 46 torpedoes after fighting the Cardassian/Dominion fleets, and that ship is 3x smaller by comparison).
Saquist
Commodore
That was poor story development (something DS9 did a lot of when it came to the mechanics and stats of the war). Those runabouts shouldn't have even taken a single shot of Odyssey was that vulnerable.
Looking at Defiant's Destruction The Ablative Armor begins to bulk after 12 shots (give or take) We leave off at 20 shots and the last two split Defiant wide open. Right before Sisko leaves the bridge there is no indication that Defiant could blow at any moment and Sisko certainly takes his time. This suggest that Valiant's stamina isn't unusual or otherwise special. While the crew abandoned ship much earlier than Valiant's crew it is reasonable to assume the crew had no reason to stay with absolutely no power
Give the 3 examples. Defiant vs the Vorcha and Defiant in Chintoka aswell as Valiant vs the Battleship...every instance suggest the ship is extremelly durable with or with out armor.
Like Warp speed, the armor is dependent on the plot.
Although, that DID happen well into the war.
The battle with the Vor'cha occurred before the war started (as far as I remember).
Also worthy of note is that Defiant evacuated a Galor class warship or it's crew in a pretty speedy amount of time. That's a crew of 300 hundred plus Defiant's standard complement of 50.
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