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Sony rebooting Starship Troopers

If you believe the humans are the bad guys (and, thus, that the bugs are good), then how do you explain what happened at Port Joe Smith in the film?
As they said in the movie the Mormons extremists despite government warning decided to establish themselves (a colony) deep into arachnid territory.

Two things about that:

- It takes some of the heat off the government, if they actually warned the colonists not to go there. And given what happens to those colonists, the subsequent war is more understandable - the humans simply want revenge.

- The mere existence of Port Joe Smith doesn't justify the bugs' violent and bloody massacre of civilian, and presumably unarmed, colonists. Why did the bugs not simply warn the colonists themselves? We know they are intelligent, at least the 'brain bugs' are. The bugs are capable of communicating with humans if they so choose. If the bugs did not want the humans there, they should have said so directly. I mean, if squatters show up on a farmer's land, does that mean the farmer may then personally disembowel them? No? Then not this, either.
 
The mere existence of Port Joe Smith doesn't justify the bugs' violent and bloody massacre of civilian, and presumably unarmed, colonists.

It's telling that the only source of information we have about that incident is the Federation News Service. Hardly a surprise that it slants it in favor of the humans.
 
^ Are you suggesting that the actual footage we see from PJS is faked? I doubt even they would go that far. Besides, the massacre is entirely consistent with bug behavior as WE see it later in the film.
 
I'm not sure how a more direct adaption of the book would turn out.

Verhoeven's movie works because he took basic elements from the book and turned it into a movie within a movie. You're basically watching a segment of that brainwashed totalitarian regime's TV broadcast while they're airing a propaganda movie.

It took me three tries to finish the original novel, because, as much as I respect Heinlein's work, at times it turns into such a preachy bullshit collection I just felt the urge to puke.

A bit like Frank Herbert's Dune novels. Great story, but the way he likes to spend dozens of pages on ever time a sandworm has to fart gets old really fast.
 
The mere existence of Port Joe Smith doesn't justify the bugs' violent and bloody massacre of civilian, and presumably unarmed, colonists.

It's telling that the only source of information we have about that incident is the Federation News Service. Hardly a surprise that it slants it in favor of the humans.

IIRC the way the report is shown looks more like a "look what those crazy Mormon extremists brought on themselves" than a "look what those evil arachnids did to those poor colonists."
 
I've always found the conceit that Heinlein's book was an endorsement of fascism to be hilarious. It was written in a time when military conscription was a fact of life - indeed most adult males had served, and many women. Heinlein claimed he looked at Switzerland as a basic model for the society, but they actually required (and still do) military service. I certainly wouldn't endorse the model for Starship Troopers federal service, but it's no more an idealized form than Star Trek TNG, where Roddenberry's prime directive was that the people in the 24th century were just better than the people now - without giving much explanation of how that happened.

Happy to see a serious take on Troopers - it was a major work, practically invented military scifi as a genre, won the Hugo, and is still required reading at the Military Academies. Not bad for something that Heinlein through together with some classic tropes as a kid's book over a summer. Of course, he also wrote one of the seminal works of the counter culture in the 60s, Stranger in a Strange Land, so Trooper's is hardly his only political thought, just one that struck a chord at that time.

As far as Voerhoven's work, he probably should have read the book. Not really a good thing to make a movie of a book you haven't read, lol.
 
As far as Voerhoven's work, he probably should have read the book. Not really a good thing to make a movie of a book you haven't read, lol.
He did read the book up to a certain point where he just gave up on it. Based on my own experience with the novel I can't really fault him for that.
 
As far as Voerhoven's work, he probably should have read the book. Not really a good thing to make a movie of a book you haven't read, lol.
He did read the book up to a certain point where he just gave up on it. Based on my own experience with the novel I can't really fault him for that.

I loved the book, and it has a devoted following even now. It is considered a milestone in science fiction, creating an entire genre of popular selling works in military scifi.

It's indefensible that Voerhoeven didn't at least read the source material. He could have finished it in a day or two and at least he could defend his interpretation of it. As he didn't even bother despite being paid handsomely for his role, it's easy to criticize him - and clearly he was the wrong choice to implement the film.

Hopefully the Sony adaptation will stay faithful to the book. I can't see any other reason to remake this moribund franchise, which wasn't a commercial success, and I find it interesting they use remake instead of reboot.

I once debated Michael Moorcock in his own forums about his essay Starship Stormtroopers. He too admited to have never having actually read it. Funny that. Saying you dislike it, whether it being due to the political philosophy or the writing style, I understand - directing a film based on it without bother to finish it? Clearly Voerhoeven did a disservice to the fans of the book.

A reasonable defense of the work as intended and contrasting it with what Voerhoven gave us can be found here:
http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm

Oh, and maybe this time we'll actually get to see the powered armor. A ST movie without that is a joke, and that's exactly what we got the first three times around. Can't say I (or many other people) saw the two direct to video releases that followed.
 
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^ Are you suggesting that the actual footage we see from PJS is faked? I doubt even they would go that far. Besides, the massacre is entirely consistent with bug behavior as WE see it later in the film.

No, just that the information presented in it has been slanted to favor the Federation (meaning, its government).
 
^ Are you suggesting that the actual footage we see from PJS is faked?

Unnecessary. What do you suppose footage of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would look like, without context?

(That's for the sake of making a point - both of those events are pretty horrible in any context, but you'll find many Americans who have no trouble advancing justifications for the bombings.)
 
Voerhoven's hatred of militarism and his identification of it with fascism is probably due to his childhood upbringing in the Nazi-occupied Netherlands. The animated series Roughnecks was far truer to the spirit of Heinlein's vision.
 
I loved the book, and it has a devoted following even now. It is considered a milestone in science fiction, creating an entire genre of popular selling works in military scifi.

Yeah, the book is still interesting to me in some ways. It is a product of the height of the Cold War, when it was widely expected that tactical nukes would be commonly used on the battlefields of full-scale future wars. The powered armor is a novel solution to telling an infantryman's story in that setting. There is also some meandering about what we would now call "tooth to tail ratio" and military organization that is probably more than a little naive.

Heinlein wrote quite a bit about elites running the show for everyone's good. At least as scary as ST is 1948's Space Cadet, wherein a force of specially selected, scientifically-trained officers keeps the peace on a united Earth by controlling a network of orbital nuclear bombs. But Heinlein wasn't alone in that kind of thing, H.G. Wells and Doc Smith and Isaac Asimov and I'm sure many others have plowed the same ground. What Heinlein did in ST was bring the underlying philosophy right out front through the "History and Moral Philosophy" discourses. In a way, I have to respect that because it gives the reader more of an opening to question the system that's presented, compared to other works where the political/ruling system is an unquestioned fixture.

But politics aside, one thing Heinlein could do really well was create a wonderful verisimilitude, usually through casual, natural-sounding dialogue and handling the most fantastic details in an offhand, everyday manner. He made futuristic settings solid and believable as well as anyone I've read.

The Verhoeven movie didn't work for me at all, as a satire or anything else. I tend to appreciate moviemakers who make their points subtly, so Verhoeven, like Oliver Stone, generally doesn't appeal to me. The script is sensationalistic junk. Nationalistic, militaristic authoritarian states are bad? Check. But the movie lets us know that how? Because the characters are vapid, superficial and spout empty-headed trashy dialogue? If only it were that simple.



Justin
 
An inextricable part of fascism is the belief that one race is privileged over another by virtue of its strength, especially in war, and that the privileged race is right to expand its territories by war, even to the point of exterminating the foe. Fascism is militarism for the sake of the racial struggle, and all the people in one way or another are conscripted for the struggle. In some respects the insistence on the need for a dictator stems from the belief that such a leader is needed for victory in the endless war against the racial enemies. Another inextricable part of fascism is the resolute enmity to socialism and communism.

The only parts of this that Starship Troopers rejects are dictatorship and conscription. Well, sort of, making the political franchise depend on military service (which the books does, despite a few lines pretending otherwise,) punishes not "volunteering" quite severely. If you just substitute human race for Aryan, most of the book falls squarely into the fascist mindset. And if you follow the book's explicitly conflating the bugs and Communism, the parallels are even stronger.

The allegedly reasonable discussion cited above assumes that quitting the insanely rigorous MI (90%:wtf:) is sufficient reason to give up the franchise. The statement that people can be excluded for not understanding the oath is also political eugenics in action, which is nicely fascist in spirit. A Down's syndrome person still deserves the right to have his or her say.
The notion that of course it is right for Hendricks to lose his franchise for life is quite extreme, and very unreasonable.
 
An inextricable part of fascism is the belief that one race is privileged over another by virtue of its strength, especially in war, and that the privileged race is right to expand its territories by war, even to the point of exterminating the foe. Fascism is militarism for the sake of the racial struggle, and all the people in one way or another are conscripted for the struggle. In some respects the insistence on the need for a dictator stems from the belief that such a leader is needed for victory in the endless war against the racial enemies. Another inextricable part of fascism is the resolute enmity to socialism and communism.

The only parts of this that Starship Troopers rejects are dictatorship and conscription. Well, sort of, making the political franchise depend on military service (which the books does, despite a few lines pretending otherwise,) punishes not "volunteering" quite severely. If you just substitute human race for Aryan, most of the book falls squarely into the fascist mindset. And if you follow the book's explicitly conflating the bugs and Communism, the parallels are even stronger.

The allegedly reasonable discussion cited above assumes that quitting the insanely rigorous MI (90%:wtf:) is sufficient reason to give up the franchise. The statement that people can be excluded for not understanding the oath is also political eugenics in action, which is nicely fascist in spirit. A Down's syndrome person still deserves the right to have his or her say.
The notion that of course it is right for Hendricks to lose his franchise for life is quite extreme, and very unreasonable.

The only parts of fascism that Heinlein's book rejects are dictatorship and conscription? Really?

In short, the Terran Federation is consistently described as a representative democracy, where the only difference between those with full citizenship and those without is the right to vote and hold public office. One can certainly argue that, as a practical matter, such a state couldn't exist -- that it is portrayed as a democracy, though, is incontrovertible. For what it's worth, Poul Anderson -- a self-described libertarian -- reached the same conclusion:
I never joined in the idiot cries of "fascist!" It was plain that the society of Starship Troopers is, on balance, more free than ours today. I did wonder how stable its order of things would be, and expressed my doubts in public print as well as in the occasional letters we exchanged. Heinlein took no offense. After a little argument back and forth, we both fell into reminiscences of Switzerland, where he got the notion in the first place. [Anderson 1992:319]​
Finally, it assumes that the populace behind the government is militaristic and the Terran Federation is warlike, a claim which is difficult if not impossible to support. It is clear from several statements in chapter 2, for example, that the Terran Federation is hard-pressed to find work for all the Federal Service enrollees. Emilio Rico, Johnny's father, refers to Federal Service as "parasitism, pure and simple. A functionless organ, utterly obsolete, living on the taxpayers." Why? "If there were a war, I'd be the first to cheer you on -- and put the business on a war footing. But there isn't, and praise God there never will be again. We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relations with other planets." [Heinlein 1959:24] It is clear that Emilio's attitude is not unique; the military is, in general, looked down upon, an attitude hardly consistent with a militaristic society. Compare and contrast that view with the Fascist states in World War II, which took militarism to impressive heights, or even with the current situation in America, where youth are encouraged by government-sponsored advertising to "Be All They Can Be" by enrolling in something that's "Not Just a Job; It's an Adventure."

Note also that the war, when it did come, took a long time to break into open hostilities -- hardly characteristic of an "establishment [that] has a vested interest in starting wars."
http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm

As to the Mobile Infantry specifically. Quitting and not passing the MI training are not the same thing(That 90%). Quitting gets you out of Federal service. Failing MI training gets you sent to a different branch, where you still have the franchise. Not everyone is physically and mentally cut out for special forces. The wash-out rates for present day wannabe Deltas, SEALs, etc are similar.

As to not understanding the oath, and that being fascist in spirit. Every democracy on Earth today has requirements for voting concerning age, birth and civic status. Are those things fascist as well? Why should a Down's syndrome person be able to vote when a perfectly capable 14 year old cannot?

As to the specific example of the Hendricks court martial. That part struck me as harsh when I first read the book as a teenager. Then later in life I joined the Army, saw combat, and got a working knowledge of how military discipline and military justice actually function. Heinlein is guilty of writing a little bit 'inside baseball' in this case because no one outside of the military really understand the differences between administrative and judicial punishment. In the first you are punished by your commanders, the punishments are often creative, but they only stay on your record temporarily and generally do not effect your career. Judicial punishment on the other hands means you want to be judged by military regulations(And understand that even in the modern US Army the death penalty is still in place for countless offenses). Hendricks was offered administrative punishment over and over, he opted for judicial punishment. Keeping in mind that he knew the regulations, having heard them every week during training. He picked his own fate. Complaining about his "harsh" sentence when he was given chance after chance to negate it, seems pretty silly.
 
Oh, dear, another soul who's confused what the book actually says with what they want to agree with, namely, the politics.

What happens to the hero is far more important than what gets said, even if all the little lectures seem to constitute the bulk of the book. After Rico takes the aptitude test, he indicates his preferences for which branch he's to go into. He put MI at the bottom of the list, even after logistics, which he doesn't even know what it is. When the interviewer finds that Johnny wouldn't sneak in a dog, he announces that Rico's only choice is MI. Since the whole point of the what little story there is, is that Rico is pretty much a complete horse's ass until the Army makes a man out of him, it is plain that MI is the bottom, for the no-talent dogfaces, the grunts.

(Or seemingly, at least, until Heinlein's finishes glorifying said grunts, the poor downtrodden infantry. You should imagine a music video at the end, with beautiful shots of glorious heroes, while the sentimental Ballad of Rodger Young plays. Think Alvin York as played by Gary Cooper, maybe. This glorification of the military is indeed militaristic and in that respect everyone connected with the movie is correct.)

If Rico wasn't good enough for the MI to start with, then how is he good enough when he quits MI? If he was just being tried out for MI, then the 90% attrition makes perfect sense, the real point being military indoctrination. Speaking of which by the way, telling children, even snotty adolescents who have crazy ideas about knowing everything to present logically organized and soundly sourced argument orally, ex tempore, no less, is not a simple pedagogical technique. It teaches the majority not to question the official views, lest they be put on the spot. A handful will enjoy the spotlight, but in Heinlein's world, the word of mouth effect from the HMP professors is going to haunt them for years. Think of it as political provocation by the authorities as an official part of the school days!:eek:

You do realize that if the Federal Service is really so small, so parasitic, you're saying that the electorate must be tiny? Poul Anderson, bless his heart, was a political nincompoop of the first water himself, see People of the Wind for one, and the agreement that Switzerland was in any way comparable is insane.

The book's alleged world is internally contradictory, senseless when compared to any real life, a political swindle initially aimed at children. The poster above who thought Heinlein was only motivated to fuck with children's minds because he wanted a little beer money may think that justification, but I don't. Heinlein put in little justifications for his crazy world so imperceptive readers (aka children) would understand. But there really does come a time to exercise mature judgment.

The world Heinlein imagines can't work. What's left is a glorification of the military, and ferocious insistence that race enemies must be destroyed. You may argue that it isn't fascism without a dictator, but you'd still have to concede Heinlein's Federation is more like the Romulan Empire than the USA.


PS
As to not understanding the oath, and that being fascist in spirit. Every democracy on Earth today has requirements for voting concerning age, birth and civic status. Are those things fascist as well? Why should a Down's syndrome person be able to vote when a perfectly capable 14 year old cannot?

Civic status is a cute little evasion. Racist laws that aimed at African Americans end up disenfranchising them. Technically, like literacy tests, it has nothing to do with racism, but the practice is racist and, therefore, yes, is fascist in spirit. Age has to do with independence. I have no idea where these perfectly capable fourteen year olds are lurking (behind the scenes in Hollywood? That would explain a lot, no?) but the real point is that the franchise is automatically granted. If you can convince people that fourteen year olds are responsible then they too should be enfranchised, automatically. That means the ability to sign contracts as well, after all. My experience is that adults who are truly not capable of managing their own affairs have little interest in politics and therefore would generally not trouble to exercise the franchise. And, considering their relatively small numbers, and their natural diversity, they certainly wouldn't be some sort of special voting bloc deranging the democratic process. I can't help but suspect that behind the lust for a restricted franchise is the desire to limit personhood to people of the right sort. Which, again is undemocratic and yes, trends toward fascistic.

Hendricks being unsuitably insubordinate for a battlefield is one thing. The conclusion that he is therefore unsuitably insubordinate for the franchise doesn't follow at all, unless one aspect of the system is to ensure that the electorate has been suitably indoctrinated to follow discipline. And, yes, again, that trends to the fascistic side.
 
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Oh, dear, another soul who's confused what the book actually says with what they want to agree with, namely, the politics.

The Federation wouldn't work either, but we accept that as part of the story telling - indeed, the Federation is far less plausible than the society that Heinlein portrays. Perfect people don't exist - for even children to have had things like the grief reflex sublimated speaks of a level of indoctrination that Heinlein doesn't even contemplate.

You make statement about people not understanding what the work really says, then make comments such as " I can't help but suspect that behind the lust for a restricted franchise is the desire to limit personhood to people of the right sort. Which, again is undemocratic and yes, trends toward fascistic." Clearly that isn't what the work says or suggests, but your own interpretation of it.

The thought construct on the MI being the lowest of the low (and no, understanding Heinlein's work clearly disputes that) while at the same type glorified is an enormously tortured bit of reasoning, again, showing your own biases on the matter, not that of the authors.

Again, the construct that the service is both small and parasitic isn't one expressed by the author. There's no indication that the size of the electorate is a small one, only that many people don't feel the need to participate. How does that in any way differ from our own electorate, where only in presidential elections do we approach majority participation, and in congressional and lower we can see vast numbers of people not engaged in the process?

Yes, someone here is confused as to what the book says. It isn't the person you assume it is. :)
 
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