Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

[Marsden]

Or it's merely their consciousnesses, souls or whatever you may call it, that had been swapped.

After all, the transporter had split Kirk's personality in "The Enemy Within" and put it back together, so it does have such a kind of capability.

Bob

I agree, but that's one of the reasons that I don't really like to think about the transporter too deeply. (I'm still not convinced everyone that's been transported isn't some kind of undead copy created from the remains of their former body, killed by the transporter dematerializing them.)

So, if Sulu was in the party, would he have popped up with a huge scar? At least until returned? I'm just asking, not disputing, some people ask questions as an opening gambit for argument, I just think the scar should be there if that's the idea of what's happening. But if the conscience was the only thing returned, the bodies should have been in the brig, right? Or the action of the transporter could have rematerialized them from the brig to the pad in one action. Ugh, I'm over analyzing this, aren't I?

 

[Robert Comsol]

... one of the reasons that I don't really like to think about the transporter to deeply.

I couldn't agree more, it's mostly a very convenient plot device that takes care of any plotholes the interested viewer might notice.

Bob

 

[Joska Daro]

I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))

 

[Melakon]

The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).

Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.

I don't think there was a physical transference of the landing party's bodies into the other universe. I favor the idea that only their consciousness was swapped.

This is part of the problem I have with what DS9 did with the Mirror Universe, because they always present it as a physical transference.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans wee somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity.

Fascinating speculation!

Undoubtedly, the Halkans were more advanced than it may have appeared, because they knew exactly what you could do with dilithium crystals (the budget-saving outdoor setting could probably be rationalized with the Halkan leader being an "outdoor" fan).

If we were to assume that the Halkans had some kind of mental connection to their counterparts in the parallel universe (a capability I believe Guinan has), then MirrorHalkan could confirm that Kirk would stick to his non-aggressive philosophy even in the mirror universe, while "our" Halkan could confirm that the Federation has effective contingency measures for aggressive individuals...

Bob

 

[Warped9]

I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))

James Blish already raised the idea in his novel Spock Must Die way back in 1970.

 

[Marsden]

Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.

Wow. I like that. Then perhaps there is no parallel universe at all and the whole thing was a mental trick like the Melkotians or even the Talosians.

Great idea Melakon!

I'd buy that for a dollar, I owe you a buck.

 

[Melakon]

Well, I don't think that was anywhere near the intent. I think the Halkans were the bad guys in original drafts. I'm not sure I want to make them telepaths though, because of the similarity to those you mention. I had thought they perhaps had tech enabling them to control ion storms and their effects. Spock did say it was "quite violent and unpredictable". It might have been something they did to all visitors as a defense system, protecting themselves through non-violence.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, I don't think that was anywhere near the intent.

No, it definitely wasn't the intent, but your theory is an interesting one. The entire context of the episode was that the Halkans feared that the "good guy" Federation would eventually change into an evil empire. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere a deux ex machina happens which causes exactly that. That's far more of a coincidence than not, don't you think?

Unfortunately, DS9 and ENT came along with their bastardized versions of the Mirror universe, canonically putting it into the realm of "there actually was an evil parallel universe," and not something the Halkans created as a test.

 

[Melakon]

The only thing that got me on the path of the Halkans manipulating everything was a review long ago in either the old Trek or Enterprise Incidents fanzines suggesting an exchange of consciousness. It's why I think DS9 completely misread the episode. The landing party is in Mirror Uniforms, not their own.

 

[Marsden]

I feel like we might be discussing The Wizard of Oz.

In the original books, Oz was a place to get to, in the movie it appears to be Dorothy's delusional state.

So the DS9 people assumed it was really there, and after TNG Parallels and other types of shows, I can see why, but I like your idea.

 

[Melakon]

It may actually exist in-universe, I like to think it does. But I'm not convinced someone can physically enter it, based on "Mirror, Mirror", and it really establishes the rules.

 

[Vandervecken]

The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).

Based strictly on what we see in "Mirror, Mirror", my pet theory is the Halkans were somehow controlling everything that happened, perhaps to test Kirk's sincerity. We know nothing about their culture or technology, except that they're peaceniks who like sitting outdoors and watching ion storms. They're not stone age people, because they have a way of communicating via visual transmission.

Interesting idea. Maybe the Halkans were somewhat like the Organians (except with some tech as window dressing).

 

[Joska Daro]

I want to write a fic about the whole "transporter kills people" idea…
(In Chinese of course…and it might become K&S (or K/S…))

James Blish already raised the idea in his novel Spock Must Die way back in 1970.

I know that. I have read that book.
( I thought he wrote it in 1960s? I have a Spock Messiah (but I can't seem to find it maybe it's at one of my friends' home) published in…1969 if I'm not mistaken. )

I'm thinking about something different…something totally based on this, not just to mention the idea in a conversation between Bones&Scotty

 

[Warped9]

^^ Nope. Published in 1970. Although he could have actually written it sometime in 1969-70.

It was the first original Star Trek novel written for adults. Previous material in comics and a book or two were aimed more at kids. The next adult level book, Spock: Messiah, didn't arrive until 1976.

That said Ballantine started releasing the Star Trek Log series by Alan Dean Foster two years earlier in 1974. It's debatable regarding who the intended audience was for the Log books. They don't read like kids' books, but they're not challenging reads either. In some respects they feel more adult level than the original TAS episodes that were adapted for the Log series.

I can recall reading those Trek books back in the '70s and as a teenager I didn't make much distinction between them. As the years passed, though, I noticed more difference between a book like Spock Must Die and ADF's Log books. James Blish's writing does read as more adult level than ADF's and Blish's style lends the material a different and somewhat more serious feel. I've reread Spock Must Die several times over the years and the Log books not nearly so.

 

[Joska Daro]

^^ Nope. Published in 1970. Although he could have actually written it sometime in 1969-70.

It was the first original Star Trek novel written for adults. Previous material in comics and a book or two were aimed more at kids. The next adult level book, Spock: Messiah, didn't arrive until 1976.

That said Ballantine started releasing the Star Trek Log series by Alan Dean Foster two years earlier in 1974. It's debatable regarding who the intended audience was for the Log books. They don't read like kids' books, but they're not challenging reads either. In some respects they feel more adult level than the original TAS episodes that were adapted for the Log series.

I can recall reading those Trek books back in the '70s and as a teenager I didn't make much distinction between them. As the years passed, though, I noticed more difference between a book like Spock Must Die and ADF's Log books. James Blish's writing does read as more adult level than ADF's and Blish's style lends the material a different and somewhat more serious feel. I've retread Spock Must Die several times over the years and the Log books not nearly so.

Oh. Thank you so much. Sorry for the mistake.
To me it all feels like a long long time ago…
Spock Must Die is older than my mother…

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The only thing that got me on the path of the Halkans manipulating everything was a review long ago in either the old Trek or Enterprise Incidents fanzines suggesting an exchange of consciousness. It's why I think DS9 completely misread the episode. The landing party is in Mirror Uniforms, not their own.

I think it's brilliant to say that the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character. It solves some otherwise difficult problems with the mirror universe concept. Like, if everyone in the cast is so different over there, and events in that universe unfold so differently, then how could the cast all find themselves in the same career spots, and together, at the same time?

My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people. [Or maybe, having been newly created ex nihilo, the mirror universe continued forever on its own terms (thus allowing for DS9).]

On the other hand, if the mirror universe is real but only consciousness is exchanged, then Kirk or Uhura might have found themselves with a big honkin' case of herpes over there.

As for DS9, who's to say that any given episode was not a work of DS9 fiction, such as a short story written by Jake Sisko? Or you could say that the whole of DS9 is a separate work and not in the same canon as TOS.

 

[Ithekro]

Wasn't there someone who wrote a fan fiction story that had all the Star Trek episodes and films as a prolonged Starfleet fictionalized documentary that covered all the 20 years of travels of Captain Pike, Kirk, and Spock as the five year mission of Kirk? Plus the more weird adventures being training simulations in the holodeck that the documentrary crew did because it was a long boring flight between worlds at warp 6. I seem to remember that being a think no more than a decade ago.

 

[Joska Daro]

the Halkans sent Kirk's landing party into a virtual world, a simulation of some kind, as a test of character

That's…fascinating!
I thought the mirror universe was created in City On The Edge Of Forever before this thread.

 

[Melakon]

My old explanation was that the mirror universe never existed until this particular ion storm interacted with the Enterprise transporter. As Kirk's party beamed up, the whole other universe sprang into existence at once-- an inaccurate, fuzzy carbon copy of the real thing. [If time travel can generate whole alternate timelines instantly, how big a stretch is this?] When the episode concludes, the evil four disappear because their whole universe disappears. Its history existed only in the newly-created minds of its occupants, who were there only as distorted reflections of the real people. [Or maybe, having been newly created ex nihilo, the mirror universe continued forever on its own terms (thus allowing for DS9).

When I first saw the episode at 16, this was my thinking too, that it suddenly came to be, and hadn't existed for very long at all. It's the only way I can rationalize "That spot-- I spilled acid there a year ago!"

DS9 just messes everything up for me. ENT, however, handled it brilliantly, with everything, including us, being in the Mirror Universe.