Some dark thoughts about the Mirror Kirk…

[Joska Daro]

I'm a little nervous for I'm new here and I'm not good at English…

At the end of the episode "Mirror Mirror" Kirk told Mirror Spock to "be the captain of this Enterprise". And I think that translates into "go kill the other Jim Kirk and take his place"?
But wait…Kirk telling him to kill someone?
I can't stop thinking about this after watching "Fairest Of Them All", in which Spock tried to talk Kirk into joining his rebellion(but failed). What made Kirk think it didn't worth trying to persuade his counterpart?
Kirk has never been so decisive when he decides someone is to die. True, the Mirror Kirk wasn't a good guy, he killed Pike and 5000 people and there must be more. But that's all we(and Kirk)know about him and that's the mirror universe and our "man of integrity" has just ordered a massacre on the Halka.
So it looks like Kirk wants his counterpart die, not only for what mirror Kirk has done but also for his being Jim Kirk. The fact there is another Jim Kirk who is nothing but a villain makes him feel so bad that he wants him die. But…this doesn't feel right!
Or is it because he knew that Mirror Kirk won't be persuaded? Has he realized that they are actually the same person grown up in different universes and he knew Mirror Kirk so well because he knew that evil part of himself(we know that part of him from The Enemy Within&other episodes…)?
It's a little scary to consider that they might be the same person isn't it?

…It just occurred to me that he might be scared too. Kirk believes the Federation is better than the Empire and his USS Enterprise is better than that pirate ship, but then he realized if he were born in that universe he would became exactly what Mirror Kirk was. That scared him.
(Is that why Mirror Kirk was so angry when his Spock said "in every revolution there is one man with a vision" and told him that line was from the other Kirk? Because TOS Kirk talked like some kind of messiah but they are the same person and in Mirror Kirk's opinion TOS Kirk grew up in a better universe doesn't mean he is better than him?)

I feel bad about all these.

 

[Warped9]

For the sake of discussion let's assume "Fairest Of a Them All" is the direct sanctioned sequel to "Mirror, Mirror."

Prime Kirk (at the end) did say he felt he could read Mirror Spock as well as Prime Spock. His "reading" was that Mirror Spock wasn't a born killer. He might have suspected Mirror Spock wouldn't outright murder Mirror Kirk unless he was backed into a corner. And note that that's exactly what happened later--Mirror Spock did not kill Mirror Kirk even when he easily could have. So Prime Kirk did indeed read Mirror Spock correctly.

The Mirror universe is not a perfect reflection of the Prime universe, but rather a distorted one. Not everyone and not everyone's counterpart is inherently evil and sadistic. Note in DS9 the Mirror O'Brien was actually a good guy rather than just an evil reflection of Prime O'Brien. Note also the Mirror Scott and Uhura weren't shown as totally evil reflections of their Prime counterparts either.

So while a generally aggressive bent rules in the mirror Terran culture it's apparently not complete throughout the Terran race. The place might be run by bullies and thugs while the rest muddle along and adapt as best they can.

 

[Push The Button]

The place might be run by bullies and thugs while the rest muddle along and adapt as best they can.

This sounds a lot like the world we live in. Maybe we are all living in the mirror universe right now.

 

[Melakon]

For the sake of discussion let's assume "Fairest Of a Them All" is the direct sanctioned sequel to "Mirror, Mirror."

I know you're trying to create a hypothetical here by excusing the status, but it still needs to be clear that it's a fan film and not an official canon production. This film is creeping into TOS forum a lot recently.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Nothing wrong with that for the sake of discussion of an idea. Fan films are really just an offshoot of written fan fiction or even published novels or comics that picked up on something in one of the series and explored it further.

If nothing else it speaks to the general reception towards the STC episodes and how some feel like they could be extensions of TOS even after the fact. Speaking for myself STC's second episode, "Lolani," felt very much like something that could have happened in the TOS we're familiar with.

So for the OP to use "Fairest Of Them All" as a jumping off point for the sake of discussion is fine. Mind you, this could also have been posted in the fan production forum.

 

[Terran_Empire]

Federation Kirk essentially sabotaged the Terran Empire when he had those deep words with Mirror Spock, and with that insinuated the killing/betraying of his counterpart self.

The Terran Empire collapses because of the reforms and disarmament programs that Spock initiated once he gained a position of power. It would have likely been better for the Empire and Mirror humanity if Federation Kirk and company never interacted with the Mirror Enterprise.

Of course I think Federation Kirk subjugated mirror humanity to slavery and humiliation unknowingly, but still...I think he needed to realize that this universe was a "mirrored" one for a reason. It was the yang to his ying and with that comes balance of the multiverse. The success the Federation has had with it's peaceful mantra and ideals of co-existence and diversity by virtue of implementation in an alternate and opposite reality cannot possibly hope to yield the same results.

On another note...we have seen it many times in our own history...that when a dictator or a totalitarian regime becomes soft, benevolent and merciful or otherwise reformed...they essentially sign their own death warrant as then the people become brave, assertive and unreasonable despite the lessening of brutality and oppression.

A dictatorial regime must rule through force, punishment and fear or not at all.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I just wanted to step in and welcome Joska Daro, and to say that your English is very good. Your points are clear as can be!

 

[Joska Daro]

Thank you so much *hug*

 

[Joska Daro]

So the mirror universe went wrong at some point and became an empire but the people there are not born evil. Good point…

 

[ZapBrannigan]

So the mirror universe went wrong at some point and became an empire but the people there are not born evil. Good point…

Agreed. It's all about how people are educated and acculturated. Children in their formative years variously adapt to or fully internalize the philosophy, doctrines, and morals of their society. And you can see extreme differences in the way people think, depending on where in the world they were raised.

The fact is, Star Trek's mirror universe depicts behaviors and values that are no worse than (and in some respects nowhere near as bad as) the societal norms in many real places around the world today.

 

[T'Girl]

At the end of the episode "Mirror Mirror" Kirk told Mirror Spock to "be the captain of this Enterprise". And I think that translates into "go kill the other Jim Kirk and take his place"?

Hate to derail your premise, but was there any real expectation on Kirk's part that Mirror Kirk was ever going to return?

The ability to return was closing and Kirk didn't know Spock had the Mirror quartet basically standing on the transporter pads.

 

[Joska Daro]

At the end of the episode "Mirror Mirror" Kirk told Mirror Spock to "be the captain of this Enterprise". And I think that translates into "go kill the other Jim Kirk and take his place"?

Hate to derail your premise, but was there any real expectation on Kirk's part that Mirror Kirk was ever going to return?

The ability to return was closing and Kirk didn't know Spock had the Mirror quartet basically standing on the transporter pads.

Oh my god you're right! Thank you so much! You saved my day!

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Kirk didn't know Spock had the Mirror quartet basically standing on the transporter pads.

Possibly? But why would Kirk assume Mirror Spock would behave that much differently than his prime counterpart? Surely if it had occurred to the heavily-militarized version of Spock to return the intruders to their own dimension, it would have occurred to our Spock that much sooner?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't think Spock-prime had the evil four standing in the transporter room. That's too big a plot hole, since he'd have no way of knowing just when to do that.


SPOCK: It was far easier for you as civilized men to behave like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men. I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here.

KIRK: Probably. However, that Jim Kirk will find a few changes, if I read my Spocks correctly.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

For the sake of discussion let's assume "Fairest Of a Them All" is the direct sanctioned sequel to "Mirror, Mirror."

I know you're trying to create a hypothetical here by excusing the status, but it still needs to be clear that it's a fan film and not an official canon production. This film is creeping into TOS forum a lot recently.

Agreed with Melakon here. The idea that "Fairest" deserves consideration as anything like a sanctioned sequel to "Mirror, Mirror" is a non-starter. There's a whole forum for Fan Productions.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Interesting thread!

I think technically speaking we are just looking at a parallel universe (IIRC, after "The Alternative Factor" that was parallel universe # 2) and the "mirror universe" definition is somewhat misleading (as if all protagonists in that universe were the evil counterparts as suggested in "The Enemy Within" which is not the case - The Halkan leader behaved pretty much the same in our and the parallel universe).

KIRK: But one man can change the present. Be the captain of this Enterprise, Mister Spock. Find a logical reason for sparing the Halkans and make it stick. Push till it gives. You can defend yourself better than any man in the fleet.

Kirk's delaying of bombarding the Halkan cities inevitably put MirrorKirk in a hot seat and what did MirrorKirk have to offer as an explanation after his return from "our" universe? That he had been held in a brig of a parallel universe?

Sure, he had MirrorMcCoy, MirrorScott and MirrorUhura as witnesses, but would these have actually risked to defend MirrorKirk? And what about MirrorSulu?

MirrorSpock had the means to lock MirrorKirk away (not in his quarters with the Tantalus device, obviously) and assume command of the ISS Enterprise (but how to spare the Halkans is a different thing, of course).

Bob

 

[Nebusj]

I don't think Spock-prime had the evil four standing in the transporter room. That's too big a plot hole, since he'd have no way of knowing just when to do that.

Oh, now that Spock knows with certainty: wait for the last possible moment when physics will allow the transfer to be done, then wait another couple dramatic beats, and hope. Spock knows his Kirk, after all.

 

[Joska Daro]

So now it's about whether TOS Spock has the four on the transporter pad before TOS Kirk returns? I don't think that's important, for it doesn't matter what really happened on the USS Enterprise. It's about Kirk's idea of what might be happening.
And he didn't know if Mirror Kirk is identified until he returned to his ship.

 

[Marsden]

Well, two other shows, both came after this one though, both made the theory that the returning of the original person to the original universe they came from automatically displaced the replacement person back to where they came from. So it's possible that the four Terran Empire people were in the brig and just disappeared back to their universe, maybe in their brig, but our four people were on the transporter.


But then, (to paraphrase Spock from the Cage) The uninforms!

I think the respective transporters in each universe corrected the uniforms as they materialized on the pads, so that's how they were dressed properly for each universe. That's a little silly, but the transporter has done more with less before.

I don't think refering to something else in a post changes this to a fan fiction thread, it's about Mirror, Mirror. Or was that a fan fiction? I haven't seen that Star Trek Continues film, but it doesn't change Mirror, Mirror either way. I think it's just as valid to be in this forum as anything that mention those last two Star Trek movies. They are alternate universes, too.

As for the "Mirror Universe" It made a great episode, but I think they've gone back to it way too many times.

 

[Robert Comsol]

So it's possible that the four Terran Empire people were in the brig and just disappeared back to their universe, maybe in their brig, but our four people were on the transporter.

Considering Spock's "assumption" I believe this is the scenario we are actually looking at, unless MirrorSpock had the means to pinpoint his Kirk in our universe.

SPOCK: It was far easier for you as civilised men to behave like barbarians, than it was for them to behave like civilised men. I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here.

I think the respective transporters in each universe corrected the uniforms as they materialized on the pads, so that's how they were dressed properly for each universe. That's a little silly, but the transporter has done more with less before.

Or it's merely their consciousnesses, souls or whatever you may call it, that had been swapped.

After all, the transporter had split Kirk's personality in "The Enemy Within" and put it back together, so it does have such a kind of capability.

Bob