So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A First?

[TRON JA307020]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Basically one universe had to be the first and then all the other parallel universes or alternate universes had to come about through supposed different decisions etc. that the original or Prime universe made. We all call the TOS the prime universe but how do we know that ? Was it the first or real universe than all the others that followed were created after. I wont bore anyone with the physics but supposedly there are alternate or parallel universe out there that are basically slightly different then ours and may have happened differently. We all have a myriad of decisions we make each day but may have wanted or nearly made a different decision which is where parallel universes may get their start. So in Star Trek the question is at the beginning of the universe there was supposedly just one then the parallels came later. Do there has to be a prime or original universe. Is it TOS or another?

The first Universe is the one we see in the Cage. Vulcans there smile. The Enterprise is an Earth ship.

The second Universe is the One we see in Where No Man has Gone Before. In this universe Spock has a human ancestor.He fears people with ESP. Kirk's middle initial is R and was a stack of books with legs. Sulu is a physicist. The Enterprise is an Earth ship

The Third Universe is the one we see in The Corbomite Maneuver. In this Universe Uhura is in the Command division. Vulcans are called Vulcanians.

The Fourth Universe is first seen in The Enemy Within. In this Universe Uhura is in Operations.

Universe Five is first seen in Charlie X. In this Universe the Enterprise is an Earth ship operating under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency

Universe Six has the Enterprise operating as a part of Starfleet and first appears in Tomorrow Is Yesterday. Star Trek takes place in the 22nd Century.

Universe Seven originates in A Taste of Armageddon, it is very similar to the Prime and the Enterprise works for the United Federation of Planets. Space Seed establishes this version is set in the 22nd Century.

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos.

Universe Nine is probably the Prime Universe. It starts in "Errand of Mercy".

Universe Ten is the TMP universe. In this universe the events of TOS are fictionalized versions of reality.

Universe Eleven is the TWOK+ universe. It might be the prime. Though if Kirk has no brother as implied in TFF, it might be a new universe.

Universe Twelve is the TNG early season one universe. It takes place some time after 2378.

Maybe I should stop here.

Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Basically one universe had to be the first and then all the other parallel universes or alternate universes had to come about through supposed different decisions etc. that the original or Prime universe made. We all call the TOS the prime universe but how do we know that ? Was it the first or real universe than all the others that followed were created after. I wont bore anyone with the physics but supposedly there are alternate or parallel universe out there that are basically slightly different then ours and may have happened differently. We all have a myriad of decisions we make each day but may have wanted or nearly made a different decision which is where parallel universes may get their start. So in Star Trek the question is at the beginning of the universe there was supposedly just one then the parallels came later. Do there has to be a prime or original universe. Is it TOS or another?

The first Universe is the one we see in the Cage. Vulcans there smile. The Enterprise is an Earth ship.

The second Universe is the One we see in Where No Man has Gone Before. In this universe Spock has a human ancestor.He fears people with ESP. Kirk's middle initial is R and was a stack of books with legs. Sulu is a physicist. The Enterprise is an Earth ship

The Third Universe is the one we see in The Corbomite Maneuver. In this Universe Uhura is in the Command division. Vulcans are called Vulcanians.

The Fourth Universe is first seen in The Enemy Within. In this Universe Uhura is in Operations.

Universe Five is first seen in Charlie X. In this Universe the Enterprise is an Earth ship operating under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency

Universe Six has the Enterprise operating as a part of Starfleet and first appears in Tomorrow Is Yesterday. Star Trek takes place in the 22nd Century.

Universe Seven originates in A Taste of Armageddon, it is very similar to the Prime and the Enterprise works for the United Federation of Planets. Space Seed establishes this version is set in the 22nd Century.

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos.

Universe Nine is probably the Prime Universe. It starts in "Errand of Mercy".

Universe Ten is the TMP universe. In this universe the events of TOS are fictionalized versions of reality.

Universe Eleven is the TWOK+ universe. It might be the prime. Though if Kirk has no brother as implied in TFF, it might be a new universe.

Universe Twelve is the TNG early season one universe. It takes place some time after 2378.

Maybe I should stop here.

Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.

It's just a joke about the numerous inconsistencies in Star Trek. If you read what I wrote you'll see that.

On a more serious note, every decision made has the potential to create and alternate reality. See the Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" for an example of this. Read up on the Many Worlds Interpretation for a more "real" take.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

The Third Universe is the one we see in The Corbomite
The first Universe is the one we see in the Cage. Vulcans there smile. The Enterprise is an Earth ship.

The second Universe is the One we see in Where No Man has Gone Before. In this universe Spock has a human ancestor.He fears people with ESP. Kirk's middle initial is R and was a stack of books with legs. Sulu is a physicist. The Enterprise is an Earth ship
Maneuver. In this Universe Uhura is in the Command division. Vulcans are called Vulcanians.

The Fourth Universe is first seen in The Enemy Within. In this Universe Uhura is in Operations.

Universe Five is first seen in Charlie X. In this Universe the Enterprise is an Earth ship operating under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency

Universe Six has the Enterprise operating as a part of Starfleet and first appears in Tomorrow Is Yesterday. Star Trek takes place in the 22nd Century.

Universe Seven originates in A Taste of Armageddon, it is very similar to the Prime and the Enterprise works for the United Federation of Planets. Space Seed establishes this version is set in the 22nd Century.

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos.

Universe Nine is probably the Prime Universe. It starts in "Errand of Mercy".

Universe Ten is the TMP universe. In this universe the events of TOS are fictionalized versions of reality.

Universe Eleven is the TWOK+ universe. It might be the prime. Though if Kirk has no brother as implied in TFF, it might be a new universe.

Universe Twelve is the TNG early season one universe. It takes place some time after 2378.

Maybe I should stop here.

Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.

It's just a joke about the numerous in consistencies in Star Trek. If you read what I wrote you'll see that.

Oh a thousand apologies. I missed that.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

^Regarding "The City on the Edge of Forever," I've always wondered if Kirk, Spock and McCoy's presence was part of what was supposed to happen--and that McCoy's initial changes to history were necessary in order to convince Kirk and Spock of what had to be done to put history back on its original course.

--Sran

 

[Push The Button]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Every time travel event would change something in the past, and even the most subtle change to the past would alter the future that you returned to. Consider how much contamination took place in First Contact, where we had Riker, Troi, Geordi, Barclay and dozens of other Enterprise crew interacting with Cochrane and his people. This is why I tend to view Enterprise as taking place in a reality that had been changed by the events in FC. This goes a long way toward explaining some of the more blatant continuity errors in ENT, such as Romulans having cloaking technology 100 years before they are supposed to.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

I'm going on a postulation that if there was only one big bang that at the beginning there was only one universe. Alternate or parallel universe possibly came later. Was there only one universe to begin with then parallel universes later or were there a infinite amount of big bangs parallel to each other? If there were multiple big bangs that were similar but different at the very beginning then there is no first or prime universe just a multitude of universes with none being the beginning. I always thought of multiple parallel universes happening after the big bang but not at the outset so if that postulation is true than there is a prime or original universe and parallels followed thereafter.

In this line of thought, I would say the first universe probably wouldn't bear any resemblance to Star Trek. Opportunities for branching would exist from the very beginning of the universe, whereas Humans (and most of the other races on Star Trek) have only existed for a few hundred thousand years at most. The odds of all of them coming to exist in that one 'first' universe even though their existence each requires billions of years of specific history leading up to them are probably astronomically small.

In fact, it would seem that the odds of life existing at all are significantly smaller than the odds of it not existing, so chances are the 'first' universe (and, in fact, most universes) may be completely barren.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

I hope Star Wars never goes this way. Keep it a one known universe. Disney will probably put so many movies out though that some dope will probably decide to do a time travel episode that creates a different Star Wars universe.

Nope I went there already for roleplaying purposes several decades ago. Though it was time travel to the future and back. Needed to motivate the lazy players. (If you don't do anything this will happen). Did another one for the past but that was directly in a Trek-Wars crossover story. Trek based ships, in Star Wars, that time travel by accident and have no clue if they messed anything up, because they have little to no records of the Clone War or before (this was done I think before Attack of the Clones came out).

 

[Mjolnir2000]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

The first Universe is the one we see in the Cage. Vulcans there smile. The Enterprise is an Earth ship.

The second Universe is the One we see in Where No Man has Gone Before. In this universe Spock has a human ancestor.He fears people with ESP. Kirk's middle initial is R and was a stack of books with legs. Sulu is a physicist. The Enterprise is an Earth ship

The Third Universe is the one we see in The Corbomite Maneuver. In this Universe Uhura is in the Command division. Vulcans are called Vulcanians.

The Fourth Universe is first seen in The Enemy Within. In this Universe Uhura is in Operations.

Universe Five is first seen in Charlie X. In this Universe the Enterprise is an Earth ship operating under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency

Universe Six has the Enterprise operating as a part of Starfleet and first appears in Tomorrow Is Yesterday. Star Trek takes place in the 22nd Century.

Universe Seven originates in A Taste of Armageddon, it is very similar to the Prime and the Enterprise works for the United Federation of Planets. Space Seed establishes this version is set in the 22nd Century.

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos.

Universe Nine is probably the Prime Universe. It starts in "Errand of Mercy".

Universe Ten is the TMP universe. In this universe the events of TOS are fictionalized versions of reality.

Universe Eleven is the TWOK+ universe. It might be the prime. Though if Kirk has no brother as implied in TFF, it might be a new universe.

Universe Twelve is the TNG early season one universe. It takes place some time after 2378.

Maybe I should stop here.

Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.

It's just a joke about the numerous inconsistencies in Star Trek. If you read what I wrote you'll see that.

On a more serious note, every decision made has the potential to create and alternate reality. See the Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" for an example of this. Read up on the Many Worlds Interpretation for a more "real" take.

Hate to nitpick, but just to clarify for anyone who doesn't have time to follow your link, the 'decisions' that the MWI is concerned with are the outcomes of quantum mechanical measurements. Decisions in the psychological sense are only relevant in so far as that brains are made out of particles that exhibit quantum behavior. The universes would carry on branching whether we were here or not.

 

[Mytran]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

On a more serious note, every decision made has the potential to create and alternate reality. See the Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" for an example of this. Read up on the Many Worlds Interpretation for a more "real" take.

Hate to nitpick, but just to clarify for anyone who doesn't have time to follow your link, the 'decisions' that the MWI is concerned with are the outcomes of quantum mechanical measurements. Decisions in the psychological sense are only relevant in so far as that brains are made out of particles that exhibit quantum behaviour. The universes would carry on branching whether we were here or not.

The difficulty I have with the quantum measurement Many Worlds system is that no decisions or actions in the universe are truly random - they are all the result of the particles set in motion at the moment of the big bang and the subsequent interaction they had over the subsequent aeons. "Random" is a label applied when we simply don't know the whole story. Even the decisions we make are not arbitrarily arrived at, they are the result of the cumulative experiences of our lives, which were in affected by other lives, other events, again traceable back (if we had a very long list!) to the particles set in motion at the beginning of the universe.
Pre-determinism at its finest!

Of course, that does make alternate universes and "other paths taken" a very difficult phenomenon - in fact it would require an outside agent coming in and affecting the particle flow (AKA history) or in other words, a time traveller!
IMO, time travel shenanigans are the only means of generating alternative timelines/universes

^Regarding "The City on the Edge of Forever," I've always wondered if Kirk, Spock and McCoy's presence was part of what was supposed to happen--and that McCoy's initial changes to history were necessary in order to convince Kirk and Spock of what had to be done to put history back on its original course.

I'm quite convinced that it WAS a predestination paradox - and furthermore, I think that such incidents are what the Guardian Of Forever was set up precisely to protect. After all, it is a pretty poor type of guardian who invite all and sundry through the gate it's supposed to be protecting!

However, if the Guardian knew that the McCoy of the 23rd century was also required in the 1930s in order for history to unfold as it should, then it makes sense to let him through at the precise moment. Erecting a "limbo zone" around the rest of the landing party is simple enough and would (through subtle doubletalk about history being "gone" although really they're just isolated from the normal universe) motivate Kirk and Spock to enter the gateway and play their necessary roles in extant history.

After all (in the change/fix history approach) why would McCoy need to "save" Edith Keeler in the first place? The only reason she crossed the street is because of Kirk's reunion with McCoy - and she was only on the street at all because Kirk took her out to the cinema! Explanations and justifications for the whole mess are possible, but having the entire scenario as a neat temporal loop is a far simpler explanation, IMO.

To be honest, I think that most time travel events in Star Trek can be placed under the "predestination paradox" category, from Gary Seven to Gabriel Bell. This is largely because Trek time travellers tend to be fairly cautious and nervous about "changing history", so they restrict the amount of temporal damage done (and thus neatly fold themselves into a time loop with their own history). It would only be under extraordinary circumstances that result in incidents incompatible with the timeline of origin (Nero, for example) that a new timeline/universe would be created.

Of course (as has been stated upthread) Starfleet time travellers are only the latest in a long history of inhabitants in the universe, so it makes sense that there have been new timelines created before by earlier time meddlers. Over the millennia this could give rise to numerous timelines, some superficially similar to our own and all giving the false impression of "infinite" parallel universes.

 

[Silvercrest]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Ugh. That's too many. I hope Star Wars never goes this way. Keep it a one known universe. Disney will probably put so many movies out though that some dope will probably decide to do a time travel episode that creates a different Star Wars universe.

We've seen one where Greedo fires first and then Han nails him, another where they fire simultaneously, and one where Han is the only one to fire.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Ugh. That's too many. I hope Star Wars never goes this way. Keep it a one known universe. Disney will probably put so many movies out though that some dope will probably decide to do a time travel episode that creates a different Star Wars universe.

We've seen one where Greedo fires first and then Han nails him, another where they fire simultaneously, and one where Han is the only one to fire.

Also, we've seen one universe where the Jedi is an ancient long forgotten religion, and one universe where the Jedi were policing the universe 30 years ago.

 

[DonIago]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

When they said "a long time ago..." I didn't think they meant 30 years, but I guess for some folks that is an eternity.

Anyway, my favorite theory is that all of the timelines have always existed simultaneously and that time travel or any other form of travel to an alternate timeline is not the -creation- of a new timeline but merely jumping tracks.

Though I did enjoy the exchange in "Q-Squared" where Trelane not only told Jack Crusher that it's not -every- decision that creates a new timeline, but merely "significant" ones, but also that the only timeline in which Jack Crusher lived is one in which Wesley died as a small child.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Ugh. That's too many. I hope Star Wars never goes this way. Keep it a one known universe. Disney will probably put so many movies out though that some dope will probably decide to do a time travel episode that creates a different Star Wars universe.

We've seen one where Greedo fires first and then Han nails him, another where they fire simultaneously, and one where Han is the only one to fire.

Well, that and the entire 30+ year expanded universe continuity. And those cartoons that don't count anymore.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

When they said "a long time ago..." I didn't think they meant 30 years, but I guess for some folks that is an eternity.

Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden fort...

 

[Mjolnir2000]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

On a more serious note, every decision made has the potential to create and alternate reality. See the Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" for an example of this. Read up on the Many Worlds Interpretation for a more "real" take.

Hate to nitpick, but just to clarify for anyone who doesn't have time to follow your link, the 'decisions' that the MWI is concerned with are the outcomes of quantum mechanical measurements. Decisions in the psychological sense are only relevant in so far as that brains are made out of particles that exhibit quantum behaviour. The universes would carry on branching whether we were here or not.

The difficulty I have with the quantum measurement Many Worlds system is that no decisions or actions in the universe are truly random - they are all the result of the particles set in motion at the moment of the big bang and the subsequent interaction they had over the subsequent aeons. "Random" is a label applied when we simply don't know the whole story. Even the decisions we make are not arbitrarily arrived at, they are the result of the cumulative experiences of our lives, which were in affected by other lives, other events, again traceable back (if we had a very long list!) to the particles set in motion at the beginning of the universe.
Pre-determinism at its finest!

Of course, that does make alternate universes and "other paths taken" a very difficult phenomenon - in fact it would require an outside agent coming in and affecting the particle flow (AKA history) or in other words, a time traveller!
IMO, time travel shenanigans are the only means of generating alternative timelines/universes

MWI is 100% deterministic. You still get alternate histories, and no time travel is required.

 

[Timewalker]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos

I can't wait to see your explanation of how this universe and the one with the Salt Vampire are the same one. Trelane said he was looking through his telescope at Earth... yet he had a Salt Vampire decorating his foyer.

Splitting universes by episodes or movies doesn't count. I would only attempt to split universes by time travel. for instance in The City on the Edge of Forever McCoy changes time via the Guardian where Starfleet never exists. Even though time is changed for the most part at the end of the episode the universe where there is no Starfleet probably still exists and a third universe where McCoy never went back in time in the first place may still exist. In one episode that is 3different universes.
The three different universes:The original when McCoy never went back in time to save Edith, The one where he saved edith and the one where Kirk prevented him from saving edith.

What about the disappearing bum?

I've mentioned an essay in one of the Best of Trek books in which Mark Andrew Golding speculates that the bum's death is the reason why none of the Star Trek characters ever heard of the Star Trek TV series - because his death set a chain of events in motion that led to Gene Roddenberry's death prior to his ever even pitching Star Trek as a series.

 

[Willow]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

This thread... *head explodes*

My brain is a big pile of gray goo next to yours! And I thought time travel discussions twisted my mind. I've gotta say that there are a lot of people with a lot of interesting ideas !

You will find that to be true just about anywhere you "look", here! Lots of good brains with interesting ideas!

May I ask, Willow, is your screen name to do with the movie, "Willow"?

thats right ,,there is a movie called "Willow" actually it has nothing to do with the movie. I'm a big Reed fan (you could probably figure that by my avatar ) There was a poem years back, can't rememeber the name, but it spoke about willows and reeds,,and possibly other flora and fauna that I've long since forgotten...anyway, my mind always associates willows with reeds. So, my choice of name reflects my affinity for the Reed character without an obvious statement...
Though now that I've "stated" it, it's not quite so secret anymore!

 

[Metryq]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

We've seen one where Greedo fires first and then Han nails him, another where they fire simultaneously, and one where Han is the only one to fire.

 

[Mytran]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

MWI is 100% deterministic. You still get alternate histories, and no time travel is required.

That's as maybe, but it's not very compatible with time travel as depicted in Star Trek.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: So With All Of The Alternate or Parallel Universes Is There A Firs

Universe Eight is an odd one. It takes place in the 27th Century and debuted in The Squire of Gothos

I can't wait to see your explanation of how this universe and the one with the Salt Vampire are the same one. Trelane said he was looking through his telescope at Earth... yet he had a Salt Vampire decorating his foyer.

Who can say how long that Salt Vampire had been there. If it was there at all. Trelane and his possessions are all fake. He probably ran across it somewhere and added it to his collection or made a copy of it. You know how kids are.