So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
- Thread starter YARN
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Yarn's point about time travel as depicted in Trek I think is valid. In ST IV Spock makes the process look easy. In fact he makes the computations in his head to achieve time travel.
The second major time in at least film, is the Borg use it as a way to stop the federation from being founded. If they failed the first time why not try again - and again - and again?
Part of the problem with time travel throughout all of the series is if it is as simple as it appears why wouldn't they use it more frequently to save billions of people?
Generally speaking as a plot device I think Time Travel scenarios suck because of all of the holes it creates in the narrative.
Yes. It has always been a Star Trek thing to go back in time only when it is required to move the plot along in the direction the writers want the plot to move along.
After some awful event unfolded in a Star Trek TV show where lives are lost, I would often think to myself (only half-jokingly) "Why don't they simply go back in time and fix that so it doesn't happen, and save those people"?
Check out the recent novel, "DTI: Forgotten History" by Christopher L Bennett. The USS Enterprise's engines were subtlely altered by their first (accidental) time travel (in "The Naked Time"), permitting a certain ease of use ("Assignment Earth", etc) - and the slingshot trick replicated later, in a Klingon vessel (ST IV), was extremely risky.
In any case, he'd be saving the Vulcan in this new timeline. The Vulcan of the prime universe is still there where it belongs.
Do you want him to save Amanda, too? Kirk's father? Chief Engineer Olsen? Cadets who get killed in the movie? Where is the cut-off? All the characters probably have dead relatives they'd like him to return.
The difference is by the time Spock arrives in the new timeline, it had been chugging along for twenty-five years. How many billions of lives would he change, how many people would he be assigning to non-existence if he decided to go back and fix it?
It would be Admiral Janeway from Endgame all over again...
It would be Admiral Janeway from Endgame all over again...
In the DS9 episode Trials and Tribblations Sisko et al were able to successfully restore the original timeline without causing a lot of harm.
Spock could have gone back to the original incursion by Nero and fixed it there.
When it comes to time travel stories (in any context, not just Trek), I've found it's best to simply enjoy them (if they're entertaining) and ignore all the implications. Otherwise, it just sucks the enjoyment out of the story.
It used to bother me (in my adolescent days) when time travel was used inconsistently within a particular "universe" (comics, movies, TV series, whatever) and when implications like some mentioned in this thread were ignored. Now, not so much. Probably because, over the years (adolescence was a long time ago for me), I've become accustomed to seeking immediate enjoyment from pop culture (any extra "thinking" it provokes is a bonus, not a requirement) and looking to other things for actual thought provoking discussion or contemplation. YMMV
It used to bother me (in my adolescent days) when time travel was used inconsistently within a particular "universe" (comics, movies, TV series, whatever) and when implications like some mentioned in this thread were ignored. Now, not so much. Probably because, over the years (adolescence was a long time ago for me), I've become accustomed to seeking immediate enjoyment from pop culture (any extra "thinking" it provokes is a bonus, not a requirement) and looking to other things for actual thought provoking discussion or contemplation. YMMV
Err. The beauty of time travel as presented in Trek is Spock has an infinite amount of time to plan exactly and execute the best way to destroy the Kelvin and then do their time warp thingy to go back.
No, he doesn't. He's considerably old and has devoted his final years to helping the Vulcan refugees. He has very, very limited time to do anything.
No ship in their universe or time period can go up against the Narada, that was the whole point. Sending any ship back a few days to snatch Old Spock from the path of the Narada and slamming the Red Matter into it will only prevent the final few days we witness from happening, saving Vulcan, but leaving the entire 25 year altered universe in existance.
Sending any ship back to the Kelvin's time will add it to the casualty list, destroyed along with her, but doing little or nothing else.
Spock has to work with the technology of his time, even with his insight it would take years to develop technology soley from his memory, and that is already impaired and will only more rapidly become so, his age is a determining factor now.
And even if they did develop a weapon, return to January 4th 2233 and deploy it into the black hole, the Kelvin is watching a lightening storm in space become an anomaly from which a black squid from hell emerges, only to be destroyed by a futuristic Federation vessel. Far from repairing the timeline, this will only create a second, less violently altered one, but an altered one anyway.
So really, why?
No ship in their universe or time period can go up against the Narada, that was the whole point. Sending any ship back a few days to snatch Old Spock from the path of the Narada and slamming the Red Matter into it will only prevent the final few days we witness from happening, saving Vulcan, but leaving the entire 25 year altered universe in existance.
Sending any ship back to the Kelvin's time will add it to the casualty list, destroyed along with her, but doing little or nothing else.
Spock has to work with the technology of his time, even with his insight it would take years to develop technology soley from his memory, and that is already impaired and will only more rapidly become so, his age is a determining factor now.
And even if they did develop a weapon, return to January 4th 2233 and deploy it into the black hole, the Kelvin is watching a lightening storm in space become an anomaly from which a black squid from hell emerges, only to be destroyed by a futuristic Federation vessel. Far from repairing the timeline, this will only create a second, less violently altered one, but an altered one anyway.
So really, why?
Real life reason: Using time travel to undo every disaster or enemy attack that came along would reduce any threat in the Trekverse to zero.
In-universe reason: He could make things worse. Stopping Nero from destroying Earth was a close thing and any mission back could end in faliure and perhaps the entire Federation being systematically destroyed. Using DTI: Forgotten History's excuse to eliminate the slingshot effect, that leaves the Guardian of Forever - and since you can't fit a ship through it, you'd have to go on foot. And since using it is not exactly an exact science, that just adds more risk factors...
In-universe reason: He could make things worse. Stopping Nero from destroying Earth was a close thing and any mission back could end in faliure and perhaps the entire Federation being systematically destroyed. Using DTI: Forgotten History's excuse to eliminate the slingshot effect, that leaves the Guardian of Forever - and since you can't fit a ship through it, you'd have to go on foot. And since using it is not exactly an exact science, that just adds more risk factors...
I know, I just mean the Narada arrival is the only thing that could stop the changed timeline. A ship would be destroyed, Red Matter means 2 slingshots to pick it up then go back and use it, any explosion big enough to take it out would destroy the Kelvin too and rip the anomaly even further open.
There really aren't even any safe options even if time travel where to be used.
There really aren't even any safe options even if time travel where to be used.
YARN
Fleet Captain
That's great, but it's hardly binding. I'm sure I could dig up a few Trek writers who suggest many different things.
With regard to risk, we're talking about the entire freaking planet, so risk seems acceptable.
The nature of the time-travel in the film, as some have noted, is not entirely clear.
The question, however, is simple. If you can save billions of your people, in the universe you are in, do you save them or not?
This nuTrek timeline has shown that people who are meant to be born are not only born, but have the job assignments they should have!
People who would still be shacking up and having kids if Spock intervened, so the those numbers wash out. What doesn't divide out are the billions of missing Vulcans.
And if we have a scruple about those 25 years, Spock could time travel to right before the Narada attacks Vulcan and assault it then as a measure of least intervention to save billions of lives, his home, his mother, his race, his culture.
ToA, you took the words right out of my mouth. If there are questions WRT time travel and it's effects or why don't we just do this or this - I wholeheartedly recommend reading both of Christopher L Bennett's DTI books. He does a very good job of reconciling a lot of questions.
How? is everyone forgetting that the Narada can simply mop the floor with the best ships any race in this timeline has?
Because it was made very clear in the film, what with the blowing 50+ ships away without effort.
The only way to take her out is using the Red Matter, going back and getting between the Narada and Old Spock as he arrives, which is deadly enough as it is.
Because it was made very clear in the film, what with the blowing 50+ ships away without effort.
The only way to take her out is using the Red Matter, going back and getting between the Narada and Old Spock as he arrives, which is deadly enough as it is.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Are you forgetting that they figured out how to beat the Narada and her crew before it destroyed Earth?
Spock now has the blueprint of a successful assault on that ship.
They destroyed it using the Red Matter, it was only because the ship was being torn apart by a massive black hole that it was stopped.
Without that, the shields around the Narade make all Starfleet weapons useless. And the Jellyfish is gone, stealing the one as it arrives (apart from creating two Old Spocks) means you'd have the Red Matter anyway.
Without that, the shields around the Narade make all Starfleet weapons useless. And the Jellyfish is gone, stealing the one as it arrives (apart from creating two Old Spocks) means you'd have the Red Matter anyway.
I hear what your saying. But as college professor, if you had a student writer who insisted on writing about the same subject - over, and over and over - and used the same narratives to solve plot problems in his/her short stories you wouldn't eventually tell that student to get some new source material?
Time travel is even more overused than the Borg as a plot device in all of Trek - and that's saying a lot.
One world versus the entire 130+ planet United Federation of Planets? I'm sure they would have something to say about being put at risk like that!
I don't remember a Starfleet Lieutenant Carol Marus serving on the Enterprise in The Original Series. I also remember a Yeoman Janice Rand in TOS. Spock aside, Pike's launch crew was also totally different to that of his Prime-Trek equivalent. Chekov is seen in engineering wearing red in the Into Darkness trailers. Things are similar, but not the same.
But what about the future? With knowledge of future events, Romulus or at least their population may survive the supernova in 2387. Undo the events of STXI, and history's just gonna repeat itself.
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