So when did Tuvok start trusting Chakotay?
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Good Will Riker
Admiral
"Twisted" was a left over episode from VOY's 1st season.
Season 2 proper set-out to establish a mutual respect between Chakotay and Tuvok, being that they are 2nd and 3rd in command, respectively, to Kathryn Janeway.
Season 2 proper set-out to establish a mutual respect between Chakotay and Tuvok, being that they are 2nd and 3rd in command, respectively, to Kathryn Janeway.
I think that there were some trust or at least respect between them from the beginning since Tuvok had been serving on Chakotay's ship. But I guess that Tuvok didn't really like that Janeway made Chakotay First Officer, maybe not so much for his own sake but for making a non-Starfleet officer second in command and at the same time place Chakotay over Tuvok himself in the hierarchy. Chakotay may have been a bit annoyed at Tuvok being a spy on his ship and probably also found Tuvok uptight, rigid and annoying in some situation.
Despite that, they did seem to respect each other and I guess that some sort of friendship started to develope between them at least from the events in "State Of Flux" when Seska is revealed as a spy. In "Twisted" Chakotay is honest to tell his inner feelings about uvok and Tuvok is honest in his comments about Chakotay as well. I guess that the conversation they had cleaned up the air or whatever might have been between them and that they started to develope a friendship from there on.
Despite that, they did seem to respect each other and I guess that some sort of friendship started to develope between them at least from the events in "State Of Flux" when Seska is revealed as a spy. In "Twisted" Chakotay is honest to tell his inner feelings about uvok and Tuvok is honest in his comments about Chakotay as well. I guess that the conversation they had cleaned up the air or whatever might have been between them and that they started to develope a friendship from there on.
I'm not sure they ever really resolved this to my way of thinking and it has always been a huge area of disappointment to me.
The story line between these two should have been explored and expanded upon not only for the fact one was Janeway's oldest advisor/friend and the other being her right had man but just for the fact that these two would have had an interesting friendship.
I could see them bonding over their mutual respect and love for their captain and also for their mutual alarm at some of her cowboy antics. I believe Kerry has a wonderful story about a sort of male bonding club formed amongst the senior male officers to protect her from herself, its funny and well written and something that should have been further explored.
A truly missed storyline here by the Clown College.
The story line between these two should have been explored and expanded upon not only for the fact one was Janeway's oldest advisor/friend and the other being her right had man but just for the fact that these two would have had an interesting friendship.
I could see them bonding over their mutual respect and love for their captain and also for their mutual alarm at some of her cowboy antics. I believe Kerry has a wonderful story about a sort of male bonding club formed amongst the senior male officers to protect her from herself, its funny and well written and something that should have been further explored.
A truly missed storyline here by the Clown College.
I agree. Not only was this the Tuvok/Chakotay dynamic underused but the two along with Janeway would have made an interesting "trio" similar to the Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio. Just as Kirk relied on two people with way different philosophies Janeway was in the same position regarding her first officer and old friend. This is what made the dynamic among the three during Basics an interesting one and it's a shame it wasn't continued.
Interesting comparison with McCoy and Spock. Those two are like salt and pepper. They have a relationship because McCoy nags Spock and Spock likes the attention. But let's not forget that Spock is a Human-Vulcan hybrid who tries to be the perfect Vulcan. Perhaps that's why he enjoys this so much. McCoy is the perfect foil to make him look very Vulcan and he LOVES it. And McCoy takes the trouble to nag him because he admires him and wishes Spock could loosen up and be a pal.
Now Tuvok and Chakotay, they simply have no interest in each other except professionally or through Janeway. And it's a woman thing to get close to your rival. The Voyager crew is rich enough for the first officers not to need each other for company. Besides, they share the same employ in the show. They are a bit like two sides of the same coin : back to back. Same job, different approach.
In Chalotay's shoes, I'd be uneasy around Tuvok for years for stealing his job. And Tuvok just likes to be alone. He doesn't need more self-questioning in his life.
Each one has his own spirituality, his own interests and they are more comfortable with disciples than in a hypothetical apttempt to learn from each other. It would complicate their lives.
Now Tuvok and Chakotay, they simply have no interest in each other except professionally or through Janeway. And it's a woman thing to get close to your rival. The Voyager crew is rich enough for the first officers not to need each other for company. Besides, they share the same employ in the show. They are a bit like two sides of the same coin : back to back. Same job, different approach.
In Chalotay's shoes, I'd be uneasy around Tuvok for years for stealing his job. And Tuvok just likes to be alone. He doesn't need more self-questioning in his life.
Each one has his own spirituality, his own interests and they are more comfortable with disciples than in a hypothetical apttempt to learn from each other. It would complicate their lives.
Given that Tuvok was the oldest member of the crew and sort of a crotchety old uncle at times, hell he was a grandfather, I think Chuckles would have felt that he had a lot to learn from him not only as it related to Janeway but as it related to life in general. Let’s pretend for a minute that Chuckles really was an Indian who kept at least one of the traditions that is pretty much standard belief amongst all real tribes, the respect for ones elder and their wisdom.
Tuvok's advice and guidance should have been sought out more than once plus these two being for the most part the senior Alpha males could have had a great friendship. Neither Chuckles nor Tuvok were shown to have a relationship with any other crew member other than Tuvok's w/Kes and Chuckles W/B'Elanna.
I'm not saying they should have been swigging beers and dropping dollars down the g-strings of green Orion slave girls in the holodeck but maybe something similar to the weekly card games or chess games in other series. I could see these two bonding over a love of fine wines and classical music, relaxing from one of Janeway's "I am Super Captain" missions that just skirted crazy.
Imagine what fun Chuckles could have had, given that his character was supposed to have a warped sense of humor, at Tuvok's expense and Tuvok who could just as easy pull a fast one, getting even
No way should these two have interacted as little as they did when they were two thirds of the main command team
If there was to be a Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio it should have been them and Janeway not the Janeway/Doc/Seven.
I remember reading that Tuvok was supposed to have the Seven role when they discovered the spacecraft. I think it would have been a lot more interesting for Chuckles and Tuvok to come to an understanding and bond over this than Seven. Although the actress did a hell of a job with the last scene
All I'm saying is it was a missed storyline that could have been better fleshed out cause years later we are still wondering if they ever truly resolved their differences or just learned to play well with each other for Janeway's sake.
Tuvok's advice and guidance should have been sought out more than once plus these two being for the most part the senior Alpha males could have had a great friendship. Neither Chuckles nor Tuvok were shown to have a relationship with any other crew member other than Tuvok's w/Kes and Chuckles W/B'Elanna.
I'm not saying they should have been swigging beers and dropping dollars down the g-strings of green Orion slave girls in the holodeck but maybe something similar to the weekly card games or chess games in other series. I could see these two bonding over a love of fine wines and classical music, relaxing from one of Janeway's "I am Super Captain" missions that just skirted crazy.
Imagine what fun Chuckles could have had, given that his character was supposed to have a warped sense of humor, at Tuvok's expense and Tuvok who could just as easy pull a fast one, getting even
No way should these two have interacted as little as they did when they were two thirds of the main command team
If there was to be a Kirk/Spock/McCoy trio it should have been them and Janeway not the Janeway/Doc/Seven.
I remember reading that Tuvok was supposed to have the Seven role when they discovered the spacecraft. I think it would have been a lot more interesting for Chuckles and Tuvok to come to an understanding and bond over this than Seven. Although the actress did a hell of a job with the last scene
All I'm saying is it was a missed storyline that could have been better fleshed out cause years later we are still wondering if they ever truly resolved their differences or just learned to play well with each other for Janeway's sake.
Sure, Chakotay and Tuvok can both learn from each other like any other 2 people but they might consider themselves too old to change or be anybody's disciple. I don't see Chakotay resolving his father issues with Grandfather Tuvok. After all he is rather opinionated. Who does he go to for guidance? Spirits. Which really means within himself.
These guys are self-sufficient and both reasonable, no-nonsense people. Non, I don't see Chakotay as someone with a great sense of humor. He likes being amused but that's as far as it goes.
What brings them together - their similarities - might be what makes it unnecessary for them to seek each other out. And being teamed together for work does not necessarily give them affinities or enough mutual curiosity.
Sure, logically, they should be seen to consult with each other more, but that might not be exciting enough to make it into the 45-minute format. So yes, Boru, after a few seasons, their characters even take a step towards the background in favor of Seven and the Doc. Admit it, sexy and funny always take precedence.
At the end of the day, it seems that for all the background story episodes in the world, the writers did not identify with Tuvok or Chakotay on a very regular basis. But that's what fan fictions are for, isn't it ? Although I agree they should get things right in the shows.
These guys are self-sufficient and both reasonable, no-nonsense people. Non, I don't see Chakotay as someone with a great sense of humor. He likes being amused but that's as far as it goes.
What brings them together - their similarities - might be what makes it unnecessary for them to seek each other out. And being teamed together for work does not necessarily give them affinities or enough mutual curiosity.
Sure, logically, they should be seen to consult with each other more, but that might not be exciting enough to make it into the 45-minute format. So yes, Boru, after a few seasons, their characters even take a step towards the background in favor of Seven and the Doc. Admit it, sexy and funny always take precedence.
At the end of the day, it seems that for all the background story episodes in the world, the writers did not identify with Tuvok or Chakotay on a very regular basis. But that's what fan fictions are for, isn't it ? Although I agree they should get things right in the shows.
Tuvok said:
So there
Oops! I didn't think a "so there" was really necessary.
I wanted a lot more characterization--between
Chakotay and Tuvok--as posted by others, different yet also similar
Chakotay and Neelix--both had their home planets destroyed but reacted differently
Chakotay and Seven--both sacrificed their ships for Voyager's continuance
Chakotay and Harry--Harry seemed to hero-worship Chak sometimes, it would've been interesting to have had Harry "grow up" and see Chak's flaws (Though I really liked Chak, he was still human, so not perfect--except for his lips. Those were perfect. And dimples. Dimples are good.)
Neelix and Tuvok--obvious differences, but both dedicated to Janeway
Neelix and B'Elanna--as alluded to in a few episodes, he was able to get through to her and acted as a sounding board
Neelix and Tom--since Neelix had been able to help B'Elanna where Tom either couldn't or wasn't, any conflict there? Especially considering their earlier conflict over Kes.
B'Elanna and Tuvok--not enough about his helping her control her outbursts, tiny bits here and there.
B'Elanna and Seven--a grudging camaraderie would've been nice.
Doctor and anyone-but-Janeway-or-Seven--he was the only doctor on the ship.
Kes and Seven--can you imagine if Kes had stayed? Seven rather inhuman, Kes all too "human" (for a non-human)?
Seven--she wasn't stupid, yet she was unwilling/unable to learn some human abilities? And after Unimatrix Zero, she should've been so dang far along, she should've been human-with-Borglike-qualities, not Borg-acting-human-like.
Anyway, just my ideas of relationships which could've been explored.
AND...Not have Janeway so damn angry and dowdy in the last 2 years! At least, not without more background for it (I'm talking little things dropped here and there, not A-stories).
Amen to that!
I realize this is a technicality but Seven as a drone had no power to decide what color underwear to wear that day let alone whether or not to sacrifice a ship. This along with all other decisions were made by the hive mind based on data fed by Seven and the other cube drones.
Chakotay's sacrifice was a decision made by an individual - a totally different ball of wax.
ria75
Chuckles, was as B'Elanna point out, known to have a warped sense of humor.
He show it a couple of times during the show. One episode that sticks out was when he was suppose to call Janeway out of the doctor's lecture and left her there.
I do not believe at his age he would have sought Tuvok's guidance as a stand in father figure but as what he was, a respect elder of the tribe if you will. Chuckles had already resolved those issues in Tattoo, or rather the writers didn't bring it up again so we assume there was resolution.
The only similarities I see between them is that they are both males, they both have a sense of honor and both care for Janeway. They come from different backgrounds and beliefs so there was more than enough of a difference for the writers to write better storylines or flesh out the other two thirds of the command time.
No way should we still be guessing, I think it was the Night episode, if they resolved there difference or else Chuckles wouldn't have said waht he said.
And if sexy and funny took precedence then these two should have been in the forefront not only because of Tuvok's dry wit and Chuckles inner imp but also because Beltran and Russ were totally hot, mature eyecandy with great caustic wit, intelligence and comic timing.
The writers dropped the ball in my eye period. They had two great characters that got cut off at the knees in favor of "sexy and funny" which for me wore thin very fast. Hell Tom Paris and Harry as comic relief grated on my nerves at times and I kinda of expected it from them given their supposed age.
You right there is some great fan fiction out there, like I said Kerry W's is spot on, but it shouldn't have been left up to the fans to flesh out what was originally two main characters.
Chuckles, was as B'Elanna point out, known to have a warped sense of humor.
He show it a couple of times during the show. One episode that sticks out was when he was suppose to call Janeway out of the doctor's lecture and left her there.
I do not believe at his age he would have sought Tuvok's guidance as a stand in father figure but as what he was, a respect elder of the tribe if you will. Chuckles had already resolved those issues in Tattoo, or rather the writers didn't bring it up again so we assume there was resolution.
The only similarities I see between them is that they are both males, they both have a sense of honor and both care for Janeway. They come from different backgrounds and beliefs so there was more than enough of a difference for the writers to write better storylines or flesh out the other two thirds of the command time.
No way should we still be guessing, I think it was the Night episode, if they resolved there difference or else Chuckles wouldn't have said waht he said.
And if sexy and funny took precedence then these two should have been in the forefront not only because of Tuvok's dry wit and Chuckles inner imp but also because Beltran and Russ were totally hot, mature eyecandy with great caustic wit, intelligence and comic timing.
The writers dropped the ball in my eye period. They had two great characters that got cut off at the knees in favor of "sexy and funny" which for me wore thin very fast. Hell Tom Paris and Harry as comic relief grated on my nerves at times and I kinda of expected it from them given their supposed age.
You right there is some great fan fiction out there, like I said Kerry W's is spot on, but it shouldn't have been left up to the fans to flesh out what was originally two main characters.
Thanks, Boru, for refreshing my memory. I have a less comprehensive memory of the episodes than you do. Don't get me wrong, Chakotay and Tuvok are respectively my #1 and perhaps #4 favourite characters in the show. I have done Native American Studies and I love Mexico and hispanics and Chakotay is right up my alley. Although the decoration of his quarters could have been less blantantly New Mexico trading post-like. I liked that slightly embarrassing scene (sorry, I don't know my episode titles) where Tuvok shows him the bow he's made for himself and Chakotay thinks it's for him, but he's not an archer. He kind of has to apologize for not being "the indian". In "Tattoo" you see he rejected those teachings for more modern sciences - although he has an interest in anthropology, and was reconciled with his origins.
Anyhow, he must not be seen as a walking cliché with a completely tribal turn of mind. You might say he's tribal about his maquis companions, or rather, has an acute sense of reponsibility for his crew, which is continued in his role as 1st officer - in charge of personnel.
I also have affinities with Vulcans - the reasoning, the telepathy, the educated speech, the elegance... and I liked how Tuvok accepted to be a little different after being Tuvix. The joke about sundaes... that was supposed to mean much. That's the thing with Tuvok : he's necessarily a bit understated. Especially as he doesn't have the typical Vulcan arrogance. A paragon of self-control.
I lament how C and T's parts were reduced to the benefit of others, for the sake of change and renewal I guess. By "sexy and funny" I meant "sexy for the male audience" and "the ham" (affectionately, because I like the Doc. I relate to being a singer and a photographer. I even like medicine).
But I stand by my statement of similarities as well as differences. Chakotay and Tuvok are the reasonable, responsible ones. Chakotay always being ready to settle down rather than risking everybody's lives. Isn't the most prominent instance of him disobeying the Captain (in the last episode of season 3 or something) about playing it safe? And I do not know Tuvok to be gung ho. Sure, Chakotay takes risks sometimes, but when it involves only himself, and for the sake of others. So would Tuvok - or anybody else, really. It's Star Trek.
Is my argument a bit thin? I don't have many concrete references to support it, I am speaking from impressionistic memory. I admit that they are quite different in their personal lives, although both practice meditation and yes, Tuvok being further along that path, Chakotay could have learned from him. But again: they are both self-sufficient, or really not quite open enough.
After the rough beginnings, they do respect and trust each other and certainly agree more often than they are seen to. It is implicit. But I find it hard to imagine them sharing a game of kal-toh (or however it's spelled). Does Tuvok make any friends at all besides Kes, his disciple; Neelix, who is the real McCoy to his Spock; and Janeway, who only visits him in his quarters for guidance once in the whole 7 years? He doesn't have many interpersonal relationships. If he did, I don't rule it out with Chakotay.
Sure, they would have much to share. Now, the way I see it, they may have a quite good working relationship, which could have been shown more, but they almost rub each other the wrong way on the personal level. And Chakotay doesn't care to bring a smile on Tuvok's face...
and now I think I'm tired of this debate. Sorry if I don't have enough imagination.
Anyhow, he must not be seen as a walking cliché with a completely tribal turn of mind. You might say he's tribal about his maquis companions, or rather, has an acute sense of reponsibility for his crew, which is continued in his role as 1st officer - in charge of personnel.
I also have affinities with Vulcans - the reasoning, the telepathy, the educated speech, the elegance... and I liked how Tuvok accepted to be a little different after being Tuvix. The joke about sundaes... that was supposed to mean much. That's the thing with Tuvok : he's necessarily a bit understated. Especially as he doesn't have the typical Vulcan arrogance. A paragon of self-control.
I lament how C and T's parts were reduced to the benefit of others, for the sake of change and renewal I guess. By "sexy and funny" I meant "sexy for the male audience" and "the ham" (affectionately, because I like the Doc. I relate to being a singer and a photographer. I even like medicine).
But I stand by my statement of similarities as well as differences. Chakotay and Tuvok are the reasonable, responsible ones. Chakotay always being ready to settle down rather than risking everybody's lives. Isn't the most prominent instance of him disobeying the Captain (in the last episode of season 3 or something) about playing it safe? And I do not know Tuvok to be gung ho. Sure, Chakotay takes risks sometimes, but when it involves only himself, and for the sake of others. So would Tuvok - or anybody else, really. It's Star Trek.
Is my argument a bit thin? I don't have many concrete references to support it, I am speaking from impressionistic memory. I admit that they are quite different in their personal lives, although both practice meditation and yes, Tuvok being further along that path, Chakotay could have learned from him. But again: they are both self-sufficient, or really not quite open enough.
After the rough beginnings, they do respect and trust each other and certainly agree more often than they are seen to. It is implicit. But I find it hard to imagine them sharing a game of kal-toh (or however it's spelled). Does Tuvok make any friends at all besides Kes, his disciple; Neelix, who is the real McCoy to his Spock; and Janeway, who only visits him in his quarters for guidance once in the whole 7 years? He doesn't have many interpersonal relationships. If he did, I don't rule it out with Chakotay.
Sure, they would have much to share. Now, the way I see it, they may have a quite good working relationship, which could have been shown more, but they almost rub each other the wrong way on the personal level. And Chakotay doesn't care to bring a smile on Tuvok's face...
and now I think I'm tired of this debate. Sorry if I don't have enough imagination.
