So this is why we have red lightsabers

[fireproof78]

There are certain belief systems that ascribe mystical qualities to crystals. Having "The Force" actually interact with certain crystals wouldn't be too far removed from that kind of thing. The Star Wars universe is fantastic, after all.

Kor

And it isn't too far removed from old EU lore. The addition is the forced color change. I think that's unnecessary.

I think the schism here is that some people like the mythic simplicity of the OT and some prefer the PT and newEU tendency towards adding more and more layers of rules and complexity. The "Legends" EU tended towards the same direction after a while and I found it just as off-putting.

I for one don't need or want a Force that has a will and may or may not create messiahs to fulfill it. Every addition of midichlorians and kyber crystals just makes me less and less interested in the universe as a whole. We are not this crude matter! The introduction of more and more physical/material phenomena slowly chips away at the original awesome ethereal power of the Force.

The Force is an energy field that surrounds us and binds us. A lightsaber is an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. Bing bang boom. We're off to the battle between good and evil.

It is just an entirely different perspective on the franchise and on storytelling as a whole and going back and forth isn't going to convince anyone. I'm having fun reading both sides' attempts to try though.

I never think I'm going to convince anyone. I just like learning other perspectives on matters.

Are you saying that because James Earl Jones was playing Mark Hamill's dad it means that Luke was really black?
.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean...

Dressed in black would be the appropriate phrasing. Hope that satisfies everyone.

 

[Ithekro]

Oh, you mean like how all Sith don't use red sabers?

I have not yet found a Sith or dark sider in the current canon that uses anything other than a red lightsaber unless it has been either stolen, or was their own weapon prior to their fall to the dark side. This includes all the films, both cartoons, and what novels and comics I've been able to get information on so far that are not in the "Legends" line.

I am aware of there being Sith Lords and the like that used other colors in Legends and games, but with the coming of Disney, there is no present way to be sure those are canon and therefore might not follow the rules as presently presented. Nor can we be sure these things happened anymore in Star Wars canon until such time as they do happen (such as something like a Knight of the Old Republic film or TV series, or other such things that provide a larger selection of Sith Lords and dark siders to the canon that what we presently have).

At present, I know of four Sith Lords we've seen, plus two we hear about, but have not seen their lightsabers in canon. (blade color: red)
We know of two Sith Assassins and a number of Inquisitors, five last I checked. (blade color: red)
We encounter three fallen or falling Jedi who have not yet crafted new lightsabers after their fall to the dark side. (blade colors: blue and green, but these are their pre-fall lightsabers)
We know of a single Knight of Ren that uses a lightsaber. (blade color: red)
We've met one Cybernetic General of the Seperatist Armies. He uses stolen lightsabers and has no known Force sensitivity, nor build his own. He takes pride in killing Jedi and taking their weapons for his collection.

I know of no others at this time.

The only other oddity in the canon is the Darksaber. We have no idea who built that thing. Or even how that is possible. A beam of black with white light at the cracked edges....and shaped like a sword blade, rather than the beams of a lightsaber. It is just weird.

What if you had some kind of crystalline life form, a crystal that was in some sense alive? I had thought about writing a fanfic in the 90s that would have involved such a thing, and eventually a book came out that used a similar idea.

The older Star Wars Roleplaying game did have one or two sentient crystal lifeforms. One use to use droid bodies for mobility and was presented as a possible explanation for the joke story of R5-D4 being a Jedi in hiding.

 

[fireproof78]

He almost certainly has a whole stockpile of the things, it's just that Vader wouldn't need it for his own saber.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Even if we go with the old EU version where it's cooked up in a forge, then any old muppet with the right seed material can make one. Shouldn't be too hard for a Lord of the Sith to get his hands on an oven.

I would think that would be indisputable but ok, fair point.

It's not like they're choosing the colour themselves. It's just what the crystals do when they bond with Jedi. It's a side effect of what must be a molecular shift in the crystal lattice, not an act of will.

I really feel like I'm not explaining myself well. I might need to step away and find a better analogy.

Not in a meta-textual sense. Red is often associated with danger, anger and violence, while blues and greens are generally considered harmonious, soothing colours. It's thematically consistent.

In Western cultures, yes.

But remotely speaking through brain matter is not even a little odd? Or moving stuff around, or seeing the future or entirely decorporealising?

I have no issue with.

Well in this instance the point is moot because it's an entirely different crystal than the one before. We still don't know where he got it from.

True.

Really, it just makes more sense in context and I can't be arsed (and probably shouldn't because: copyright) to transcribe half a chapter's worth of prose that will explain it all.

Well, I defer to you since you have read it. It was brought up and seemed relevant so I was willing to hear about it.
I don't mind reading books, but the salient points shouldn't require in depth reading for me to understand them.

Well it wasn't supposed to. Lucas specifically asked for a hamburger ship.

Right...and the Slave 1 was a lamp ship because that was what one of the production designers decided would work as a ship.
-or-
The story is more urban myth passed along as the creative process unfolded in the feverish work that was ANH.

One better: "I can kill you with the sword I made with my brain!"

I can kill with my brain sword.

"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your commands."
Yup, no indication in the OT that the force had a mind of it's own....
Also: just because the PT Jedi believed something, doesn't make it true. They're supposed to be a failing order that's become dogmatic and lost sight of some of the fundamental wisdoms. Indeed, they were show to be fallible, misinformed and misguided at almost every turn.

Though not canon, Lucas has generally maintained that the Jedi's view of the Force is correct, even if their actions are not always right.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

I'd just like to bring up again that the myths and legends of Samurai and Ronin -- of whom the Jedi are clearly based -- rarely, if ever, had to rely on 'magic swords' to make their stories legendary or mystical. And when they were magical, it was almost always purely for the purpose of being able to kill gods or other supernatural threats. Alternatively, they believed their weapons had souls that possessed them, but that was primarily to excuse themselves from being fully responsible for killing which is sort of a big deal to Buddhists and the like.

Take the Green Destiny from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or the Bride's Hanzo blade from Kill Bill as relatively recent examples.

They didn't have to 'bond' with their weapons. They certainly didn't have to create their own weapons. And even when they did, or were at least present for the forging, they didn't have to 'bleed' their souls into it. No, the weapons were simply tools -- highly revered tools, but tools nonetheless -- that these masters were able to wield to seemingly supernatural effect to the layperson.

And that's all lightsabers need to be, too. As I've pointed out several times now, Obi-Wan himself said that they were just an ancient weapon that have fallen out of common use in much the same way swords have; blasters/firearms were developed that only took hours if not minutes to learn to use effectively, and now these ancient weapons that require years if not decades of practice to use properly were left by the wayside. But since Jedi and Sith could rely on their understanding of the Force, they were more easily able to use these ancient weapons to great effect, and their ability to deflect blaster fire (which, again, is something only someone attuned to the Force could pull off) and other utilitarian uses made them a great choice for them compared to the alternatives. Religious beliefs and practices also play a big part in their choice to use them, which includes the almost-as-ridiculous addition of Jedi having to forge their own to "complete their training."

With the numerous examples of non-Force users using them, the fact that numerous Sith have used different colors (despite dismissing those facts when it suits one's argument but bringing them up when it does that a few people in this thread seem to like to do), oh, and the small fact that Luke was just handed one and only had to build his own when it was lost rather than a "requirement" of his training... and, well... it's just a really dumb and unnecessary thing to add to the franchise.

"So why do most Sith use red lightsabers then?!" The same damn reason most of them wear black, choose to follow the dark side rather than the light, and have a hard-on for taking over the galaxy. Choice. You know, just like how most Samurai or Samurai-type characters in fiction prefer to use a katana or daisho rather than something like a bajozutsu or more modern firearms (again, pointing to Kill Bill as a great example of that). It just looks cool and they already have the skill and training to use them effectively.

That's the only rationale needed. You don't have to explain their preference for red sabers anymore than you have to explain their preference for black robes and clothing. And, in fact, it makes it easier to make a Sith character stand-out simply by not giving them a red saber or black outfits and showing why they chose to go against tradition. You know, as opposed to forcing them to use a red saber because of some dumb novel explanation that someone pulled out of their arse.

 

[Skywalker]

Choosing to go against tradition is actually not a very Sith quality. Conformity, domination, and forcing your way on others, that's the Sith way. It's actually incredibly appropriate for all Sith lightsabers to be the same uniform color, because they don't embrace diversity or empathy like the Jedi do. I wish this idea had been conceived of during the old EU because it's actually pretty brilliant and is a far more thematically appropriate explanation for the variety of lightsaber colors.

 

[Reverend]

For anyone still under the impression that discarding the notion of synthetic crystals is a recent thing, only just "sprung" on the fanbase, here is a tweet from Pablo posted almost a year ago: -

"No, the synthetic crystal thing is Legends. Maul. Sidious. Vader. All those were kyber crystals."

Also, to put this in perspective, the idea that crystals could be synthetic comes from the 'Shadows of the Empire' novel in the late 90's, while the idea that *all* red crystals were synthetic came from a 'Star Wars Insider' article as recent (relatively speaking) as 2002. Prior to that the lore was all over the place, including the notion in some of the early comics that a blade would change colour depending on who happened to be holding it, and what their mood was at any given time.

So yeah, this is not a well thought out mythos that is being thrown out, it's a well thought out mythos that is being implemented over the inconsistent mess that came before.

Choosing to go against tradition is actually not a very Sith quality. Conformity, domination, and forcing your way on others, that's the Sith way. It's actually incredibly appropriate for all Sith lightsabers to be the same uniform color, because they don't embrace diversity or empathy like the Jedi do. I wish this idea had been conceived of during the old EU because it's actually pretty brilliant and is a far more thematically appropriate explanation for the variety of lightsaber colors.

That reasoning cuts both ways. Yes, the Sith are very much about imposing their will on others. But emphasis on *their*. They're not so big on having another's will imposed upon them, which is part of the tension Bane intentionally set up between master and apprentice. So once the apprentice has killed the master, then are then free to impose their own will on their new apprentice, though it need not necessarily be in the same fashion as their late master. Sith are individualists, at least where their own personal disposition is concerned. Their attitudes towards others is a different matter. No doubt some traditions would be respected, if only for their power and symbolism, but I don't see any Sith Master suffering under something they dislike out of nothing more than tradition.

Now I've no doubt that they would have their own spin on the meaning of their kyber crystals being silent for them, not singing as they do for Jedi and turning red when a bond if forged. Probably something along the lines of: "Jedi crystals are weak and chaotic, allowed too much freedom while Sith crystals are strong and uniform, as they are forged by anger and hatred. A properly dominated crystal knows it's place and is pure in it's purpose."
None of which would change the fundamental reality of what happens, only it's interpretation in the two opposed philosophies.

 

[fireproof78]

Still doesn't explain the color change.

 

[Ithekro]

Manipulation of the Force changing the facets inside the crystal which changes the spectrum of light it puts out? Based on the Force user's own pattern in the Force? The will to dominate comes out on the red end of the EM Spectrum while harmony rests more towards the blue and purple end of the spectrum? Green and yellow being around the balance between the two sides of the Force?

 

[fireproof78]

Manipulation of the Force changing the facets inside the crystal which changes the spectrum of light it puts out? Based on the Force user's own pattern in the Force? The will to dominate comes out on the red end of the EM Spectrum while harmony rests more towards the blue and purple end of the spectrum? Green and yellow being around the balance between the two sides of the Force?

That's as good a theory as I have heard, though it still begs the question as to why purple is so rare, with currently only 1 user in new canon.

A question occurs to me if Kylo Ren's kyber crystal is cracked due to him dominating it too much? And Snoke was like, "Dude, I can't just get you another one. I got all these other Knights of Ren so you'll have to make due. Get some duct tape or something."

 

[Ithekro]

There are at least two with that color blade. Mace Windu and a Rodian Jedi mentioned in Heir to the Jedi. Luke is given his Lightsaber I think, but breaks it trying to figure out how one works.

As for Kylo Ren, the First Order is using kyber crystals in some of their capital ship's weapons to boost their power. Also Starkiller Base might just have been Illum.

 

[Reverend]

Somewhat relevant to the conversation: Pablo recently did an interview with Collider's Jedi Council show and again clarified the mechanics of the process. What's most interesting to me however is that he says all of this came out of the development of that youngling arc from TCW (which seems like it could have been a backdoor pilot for a new show) and the lore came straight from Lucas himself. So it's not something they just made up recently, this is how the franchise creator thought it should work.

That's as good a theory as I have heard, though it still begs the question as to why purple is so rare, with currently only 1 user in new canon.

A question occurs to me if Kylo Ren's kyber crystal is cracked due to him dominating it too much? And Snoke was like, "Dude, I can't just get you another one. I got all these other Knights of Ren so you'll have to make due. Get some duct tape or something."

Claiming and dominating one's own crystal is probably as much of a trial or rite of passage for Sith as it is for a Jedi to hear the crystal's call and forge the bond. Sure, the respective masters could just give them out but then where's the lesson/challenge in that?

Now yes technically, as far as we know Kylo and Snok aren't Sith, but they certainly seem to be emulating at least some of their ways.

As for the rarity: well why is anything rare? It's just at the low end of a probability curve. Exactly why so few turn purple or white is something they haven't gotten into yet. Mostly because so far it hasn't been massively relevant to a story yet. So patience young padawan.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

A question occurs to me if Kylo Ren's kyber crystal is cracked due to him dominating it too much? And Snoke was like, "Dude, I can't just get you another one. I got all these other Knights of Ren so you'll have to make due. Get some duct tape or something."

"And whatever you do, don't just snag one of the hundreds of thousands of sabers that were around about 50 years ago, give or take. Because, you know, they were like... incinerated or something. Because why would the Emperor have wanted to stockpile all those rare and precious crystals from them? Yeah, screw that, just take this shitty one you broke and deal with it."

...and the lore came straight from Lucas himself. So it's not something they just made up recently, this is how the franchise creator thought it should work.

Lore written by a guy who's writing is so bad that the moment he sold his franchise, the new buyers were all like "yeah, no thanks buddy, your new ideas are shit." Oh, and who thought people were clamoring for a trilogy about trade politics and a woman falling in love with a toddler. Don't forget to add those bits in.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering the ban of Jedi related materials under the Empire, I can believe the Emperor would dispose of most the Jedi's lightsabers in the most spiteful ways possible. Like using their crystals to empower the turbolasers on his Star Destroyers, TIE fighters, and the Death Star. It is entirely possible that weaponizing a kyber crystal changes it too much to be used in a lightsaber, which would also be a cause for why Kylo Ren didn't just grab one out of the Finilizer's turbolaser barrels.

The Emperor likely kept the ones at the Jedi Temple for use with his own dark sider minions. After that you'd probably only find a lightsaber in a collection. Assuming the Empire didn't raid those when found. The lightsaber was supposedly a very rare thing by the time of the Battle of Yavin, and slightly more rare by the Battle of Endor. Finding one of some 10,000 or more crystals among several millions of planets starts to get tricky if it has been fifty years since the scavangers, collectors, and Empire have already gone over the Clone Wars battlefields for them.

 

[fireproof78]

Somewhat relevant to the conversation: Pablo recently did an interview with Collider's Jedi Council show and again clarified the mechanics of the process. What's most interesting to me however is that he says all of this came out of the development of that youngling arc from TCW (which seems like it could have been a backdoor pilot for a new show) and the lore came straight from Lucas himself. So it's not something they just made up recently, this is how the franchise creator thought it should work.

Unfortunately, it wasn't the theory that circulated around in things like "Star Wars Insider" or "The Visual Guides." So, it may not be new, but it wasn't well known, if that makes sense.

Claiming and dominating one's own crystal is probably as much of a trial or rite of passage for Sith as it is for a Jedi to hear the crystal's call and forge the bond. Sure, the respective masters could just give them out but then where's the lesson/challenge in that?

Now yes technically, as far as we know Kylo and Snok aren't Sith, but they certainly seem to be emulating at least some of their ways.

Well, if the Sith master is setting up the trials to find the crystals, then they would have more control. But, I see your larger point that the trial would be the showcase their power to their Sith Master, which is keeping with the Sith quest for more power (insert joke here. There are several).

As for Kylo and Snoke, Snoke appears to utilizing Kyber crystals far more than the Empire ever did, and is more open about his Dark Side users. So, while they are Dark Side users, Snoke clearly is finding ways to expand his power base with his Knights of Ren. So, there might be other Dark Side users, influences or uses for the Kyber crystals than the Empire was willing to do.

As for the rarity: well why is anything rare? It's just at the low end of a probability curve. Exactly why so few turn purple or white is something they haven't gotten into yet. Mostly because so far it hasn't been massively relevant to a story yet. So patience young padawan.

I'll attempt to be patient, but, as I said, the idea that the color changes in response to the Force bonding of the Jedi or dominating of the Sith is one that indicates that other colors could occur, but are rare because...?

Also, it asks the questions if Kyber crystals and the like can be used for other purposes without the assistance of the Force? In Legends, there were lightfoils, which were used by nobles on a planet for dueling. Not full lightsabers, but a similar idea.

"And whatever you do, don't just snag one of the hundreds of thousands of sabers that were around about 50 years ago, give or take. Because, you know, they were like... incinerated or something. Because why would the Emperor have wanted to stockpile all those rare and precious crystals from them? Yeah, screw that, just take this shitty one you broke and deal with it."

I think it's more a matter of, "You done screwed up, son."

Lore written by a guy who's writing is so bad that the moment he sold his franchise, the new buyers were all like "yeah, no thanks buddy, your new ideas are shit." Oh, and who thought people were clamoring for a trilogy about trade politics and a woman falling in love with a toddler. Don't forget to add those bits in.

To be fair to GL, Anakin was originally older but he didn't buy that separating from his mom would be that big of deal. Rather than rewriting Anakin's arc in TPM, he changed his age. So, unfortunately implications resulted.

But, I've always enjoyed GL's view on Star Wars lore, so the idea the the color changing crystal due to bonding is something that was previously considered is at least interesting to me.

 

[Reverend]

As Pablo say in that interview, they've gotten into the habit of not laying any more cards on the table then they really have to in order to tell the story, otherwise it could needlessly rob a later story of covering similar ground. Also as he says, GL had been kicking around the concept of kyber crystals in one form or another since the early drafts of what would become ANH. So again, this isn't a new invention, but something he'd been thinking about for *decades*.
It was a similar situation as the Mortis arc. Apparently it was a concept he'd been thinking about for years, but only got to the point where he felt like he could tell a story with it fairly late on. He kept a lot of this deep lore stuff to himself because again, why wall yourself in unnecessarily? Best to keep things fluid in case a better idea presents itself.

As for no force users using them, there is a line that says while the smaller crystals are clear and indistinguishable to all but their chosen bearer, the larger crystals are visible to all but are inert unless properly calibrated. So there is a process, though whether it also requires the force is left ambiguous.

 

[Ithekro]

The lightfoil, if any exist in the current canon, could likey be a knockoff technology of the lightsaber. Probably the electronic components have been studied befre by those outside the Orders, but getting the same effect without a tuned crystal might be difficult. That or they use salvaged crystals from old lightsabers. Perhap even those that are thousands of years old. The Jedi Order is a thousand generations old.

 

[Reverend]

IIRC the reason the darksaber exists was because Lucas vetoed the suggestion that Vizla fight Maul with a vibro-sword or something similar. Understandably he wanted the lightsabers to remain unique and not to be substituted with a lesser version. So it's a safe bet that knock-off versions of lightsaber simply aren't possible. You need a force user both to bond with the crystal so it's no longer inert and to assemble the hilt in such a way that it won't blow up as soon as you turn it on.

 

[Set Harth]

Lore written by a guy who's writing is so bad that the moment he sold his franchise, the new buyers were all like "yeah, no thanks buddy, your new ideas are shit."

And how well did the buyers do on the "new ideas" front, again? I forget how that turned out.

Also as he says, GL had been kicking around the concept of kyber crystals in one form or another since the early drafts of what would become ANH. So again, this isn't a new invention, but something he'd been thinking about for *decades*.

Key words: "in one form or another". I don't think kyber crystals were supposed to be the thing in the lightsaber until recently.

 

[Ithekro]

Wasn't the original one from "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" basically suppose to be used in a lightsaber if Luke decided to make one, or replace the one in his father's lightsaber? It has been a long time since I read that novel.

 

[Reverend]

Wasn't the original one from "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" basically suppose to be used in a lightsaber if Luke decided to make one, or replace the one in his father's lightsaber? It has been a long time since I read that novel.

It's been decades since I've read it too so I can be 100% sure, but I think the idea that it could be used in a lightsaber was something introduced in one of the much later Bantam books. IIRC in SotME it's only said to amplify force power exponentially to near miraculous levels.