So plan and simple do you like the enterprise E or not

[Gabriel]

She "kicked Borg ass" only because her Captain knew the coordinates to hit a Borg cube where it hurts, which wasn't something intrinsically inherent to the Sovereign class and could've been done by a Galaxy or any other type of class. Indeed, as depicted in the movie, it's the combined firing of the fleet in Picard's nominated 'sweet spot' that destroys the cube, again not specifically something the Sovereign herself did. I don't, therefore, see that as evidence of the 1701-E doing anything that 1701-D couldn't have. In fact, despite looking different, there is no evidence in any of the three movies of exactly how she's supposedly superior to the Galaxy class. One or two references to Quantum Torpedoes, that's about it, and we know the Sovereign wasn't the only ship loaded with those. Indeed, she even proves to be just as vulnerable as her predecessor in Insurrection and Nemesis...

Wow I don’t really watch first contact so I’m a little so excuse me for excluding the important information. She did good because her shields held long enough for her captain to find a weak spot. And do you really think a galaxy class would’ve held out as the E did in nemesis. I find the sovereign more powerful because I take in select non-canon sources Into my decision. I thought I wouldn’t have to do that if Star Trek would just hire better writers. She had more phasers and she had more torpedo launchers. So that way you can’t just hit two spots and take out her torpedoes. Also she does not have the vulnerable neck. Also she has a smaller profile in a way Because she is sleek. Smaller the profile harder to hit. So yeah she does not have overwhelming more fire power than the galaxy class, but it takes more to win a battle than just overwhelming fire power.

 

[Maurice]

John Eaves himself, designer of the 1701-E, said it looks like a chicken in a pan. Whether that's better or worse than a duck is I guess up to personal preference

I thought that was about the design with the swept-forward engine pylons which they then revised to the E we got.

Wow I don’t really watch first contact so I’m a little so excuse me for excluding the important information. She did good because her shields held long enough for her captain to find a weak spot. And do you really think a galaxy class would’ve held out as the E did in nemesis. I find the sovereign more powerful because I take in select non-canon sources Into my decision. I thought I wouldn’t have to do that if Star Trek would just hire better writers. She had more phasers and she had more torpedo launchers. So that way you can’t just hit two spots and take out her torpedoes. Also she does not have the vulnerable neck. Also she has a smaller profile in a way Because she is sleek. Smaller the profile harder to hit. So yeah she does not have overwhelming more fire power than the galaxy class, but last time I checked you don’t it takes more to win a battle than just overwhelming fire power.

In simpler language, you infer as it's more powerful even though the films show us nothing to clearly indicate this is so. And this is fine. Your mileage varies.

 

[Lance]

She did good because her shields held longenough for hercaptain to find a weak spot. And do youreally think a galaxy class would’ve held out as the E did in nemesis.

Again, I see no indication that the Galaxy wouldn't be able to stand toe to toe in any of the battle situations seen in the three movies.

I find thesovereign more powerful because I take in select non-canon sources Into my decision.

Well if non-canon sources help you make that decision then I'm happy about that But we can't all look at novels and comic books for evidence that isn't in primary source material. Which is those three movies. 1701-E isn't specifically more badass than 1701-D except in mostly superficial ways. I don't believe it looking sleeker or more badass is worth a handful of beans if it isn't actually demonstrated in some way in the movies. And I don't believe it is, whereas we have seven seasons of TV adventures demonstrating 1701-D's credentials. Granted, her movie appearance was shitty. But that's mainly down to the writers having a big hard on for introducing a new ship, so they wrote her out in a crappy way that made her look weak in battle.

 

[Smellmet]

My take is that the Sovereign was at the time of it's introduction, the most advanced starship at the Federation's disposal - Geordie even backs this up with a line of dialogue in First Contact. Along with the inclusion of Quantum torpedoes, I think it's a fair assumption to make that it will be more powerful than the Galaxy, just from a simple progress point of view - the D will be a match for the C, the C for the B and so on.

That being said I'm sure there could easily be a situation where a Galaxy could take a Sovereign out. As federation flagships from the same era, they're going to be comparable in terms of weaponry, shields etc, but surely as the Sovereign was built more with a battle cruiser role in mind and was clearly a warship, surely technically it should have the edge or what would be the point in building it in the first place?

 

[Stoo]

The E-E looks leaner and meaner than the giant flying conference centre that is the E-D. Also it is of course newer. So we may infer the E-E is intended to be a more potent fighting machine. But we really know nothing for sure.

As far as aesthetics go I think the E-E is maybe trying too hard to be a space-dragster, but overall I prefer it to the rather ungainly E-D.

 

[Lance]

My take is that the Sovereign was at the time of it's introduction, the most advanced starship at the Federation's disposal - Geordie even backs this up with a line of dialogue in First Contact. Along with the inclusion of Quantum torpedoes, I think it's a fair assumption to make that it will be more powerful than the Galaxy, just from a simple progress point of view - the D will be a match for the C, the C for the B and so on.

That being said I'm sure there could easily be a situation where a Galaxy could take a Sovereign out. As federation flagships from the same era, they're going to be comparable in terms of weaponry, shields etc, but surely as the Sovereign was built more with a battle cruiser role in mind and was clearly a warship, surely technically it should have the edge or what would be the point in building it in the first place?

I take this point. My belief is that the Sovereign is the most advanced ship, by a smidgen, but that it may be equally matched with the Galaxy in terms of strengths and weaknesses, just for different mission statements. The destruction of the Enterprise-D was unexpected, and her successor was in flight within less than a year. This leads me to believe the Sovereign was already in the immediate pre-launch stages before the 1701-D went down. If the battle above Veridian III hadn't happened, realistically I can imagine the flagship of the fleet would still have been 1701-D, even as Sovereign class ships started to appear.

Yes the Galaxy class is effectively 8 years out of date by the time the Sovereign starts to appear, but there's just something about the general like-for-likeness of the two ships that leads me to believe one is not necessarily intended to be a replacement of the other. I could be wrong. That's just my interpretation.

 

[USS Firefly]

If an 100 years old Excelsior can almost take on a new Defiant class, i think that a Galaxy is equal or almost equal as to a Sovereign class

 

[Smellmet]

If an 100 years old Excelsior can almost take on a new Defiant class, i think that a Galaxy is equal or almost equal as to a Sovereign class

To be fair, the excelsior still being around in DS9's time is solely down to budgetary constraints isn't it. The Enterprise was scuttled in TSFS for being 'twenty years old'

 

[ALF]

Love the Sovereign, not nearly enough screen time though.

 

[Gabriel]

Again, I see no indication that the Galaxy wouldn't be able to stand toe to toe in any of the battle situations seen in the three movies.



Well if non-canon sources help you make that decision then I'm happy about that But we can't all look at novels and comic books for evidence that isn't in primary source material. Which is those three movies. 1701-E isn't specifically more badass than 1701-D except in mostly superficial ways. I don't believe it looking sleeker or more badass is worth a handful of beans if it isn't actually demonstrated in some way in the movies. And I don't believe it is, whereas we have seven seasons of TV adventures demonstrating 1701-D's credentials. Granted, her movie appearance was shitty. But that's mainly down to the writers having a big hard on for introducing a new ship, so they wrote her out in a crappy way that made her look weak in battle.

Considering the fact that nearly every time The enterprise faced the Borg he sheilds went down pretty quickly unless they adapted them I say the sovereign has better shield. one in OK you have some good points but you’re ignoring this: She had more phasers and she had more torpedo launchers. So that way you can’t just hit two spots and take out her torpedoes. Also she does not have thevulnerable neck. Also she has a smaller profile in a way Because she is sleek. Smaller the profile harder to hit. So yeah she does not have overwhelming more fire power than the galaxyclass, but it takes more to win a battle than just overwhelming fire power. You didn’t comment on this and all the ship observations are canon because we see these faces torpedo launchers fire throughout the three movies. Also the fact that she does not have the neck I believe makes her less vulnerable, in the fact that she is more maneuverable helps here be more deadly.

If an 100 years old Excelsior can almost take on a new Defiant class, i think that a Galaxy is equal or almost equal as to a Sovereign class

Although remember The Lakota was upgraded a lot before her battle with the defiant. Miles O’Brien said “that’s a lot of firepower for a Excelsior class starship” which seems to be an indication that the Excelsior class is not nearly as powerful as a defiant unless they upgrade it. And on the enterprise D to the fact that after her shields were made useless was severely damaged by a D12 I don’t know about he combat skills. (Yes I know the writers were trying to get rid of her) I mean if Riker order fire a couple seconds later they probably would not have a bridge.
Are those Starfleet ships seem to not do very well when their shields go down. Maybe Starfleet should fix that.

In simpler language, you infer as it's more powerful even though the films show us nothing to clearly indicate this is so. And this is fine. Your mileage varies.

Again all the thing in that part you quoted from me are observations from the three movies. And the fact that a ship with a smaller profile is harder to hit. Also the fact that she has more topedo launchers (seen in movies) you can’t just take out her torpedoes with two well-placed hits. If I were an enemy commander that’s what I would do To a galaxy class as soon as I take down the shields. Which doesn’t always seem very hard to do considering 2 Brel class were able to take down her shields. Also what do you mean about mileage.

To be fair, the excelsior still being around in DS9's time is solely down to budgetary constraints isn't it. The Enterprise was scuttled in TSFS for being 'twenty years old'

Yeah I found that a little weird. Although I believe the Admiral was referring to 20 years after refit. Because the that the enterprise has been around for a lot longer than just 20 years. Because wasn’t the enterprise 40 years old At the time of search for Spock. And I don’t know partly things at the Excelsior is more adaptable than the constitution. Mean why else would starfleet keep it in service if it’s not better than the constitution.

 

[inflatabledalek]

I think the Enterprise E looks great in First Contact, but the CGI model in Insurrection is very flat and poor and the sets already look a bit tired and worn out in Nemesis (I think it's mentioned in the Blu Ray extras they had to put engineering up in a smaller sound stage and had to really hammer in the wall panels for it to fit).

Is it the only lead hero ship in Trek to be designed specifically for the needs of its introductory script rather than as a general all purpose ship for multiple adventures? The deflector dish looks like it does for the space walk scene, the interiors were created with Borgification in mind, IIRC even the airlock was just off the bridge, though that's not very clear in the final film.

 

[Smellmet]

I think the Enterprise E looks great in First Contact, but the CGI model in Insurrection is very flat and poor and the sets already look a bit tired and worn out in Nemesis (I think it's mentioned in the Blu Ray extras they had to put engineering up in a smaller sound stage and had to really hammer in the wall panels for it to fit).

Is it the only lead hero ship in Trek to be designed specifically for the needs of its introductory script rather than as a general all purpose ship for multiple adventures? The deflector dish looks like it does for the space walk scene, the interiors were created with Borgification in mind, IIRC even the airlock was just off the bridge, though that's not very clear in the final film.

I hated the interior of the enterprise E. It just looked so plastic and cheap and a step back from what had come before. I much preferred the D's interior, which just looked so much more luxurious, futuristic and realistic to me, especially in Generations.

Agree the exterior looked poor in insurrection, but them most of the FX was sub par in that movie. I thought it looked great in nemesis though and the film showed loads of different angles of it.

 

[Gabriel]

I think the Enterprise E looks great in First Contact, but the CGI model in Insurrection is very flat and poor and the sets already look a bit tired and worn out in Nemesis (I think it's mentioned in the Blu Ray extras they had to put engineering up in a smaller sound stage and had to really hammer in the wall panels for it to fit).

Is it the only lead hero ship in Trek to be designed specifically for the needs of its introductory script rather than as a general all purpose ship for multiple adventures? The deflector dish looks like it does for the space walk scene, the interiors were created with Borgification in mind, IIRC even the airlock was just off the bridge, though that's not very clear in the final film.

Actually apparently between insurrection and nemesis actually raised up her nacelles along with the weapons upgrades. Apparently they did that so that way it would stop looking so flat

(Sorry if it’s hotlinked I can’t make it work any other way.)

 

[Maurice]

Also what do you mean about mileage.

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary = your car may not get the same mileage as mine = your opinion may differ.

 

[Elephant999]

I thought the D looked too bulbous and looked basically like a cruise ship inside. The bridge was far too large and spacious and was not as purposeful as the E’s.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The look is absolutely gorgeous, a phenomenal merging of TMP and 1701-D, and it's the top of my list (TMP is a very close runner-up). The shape looks like it's moving forward when looking at it - optical illusion based on angle and direction the eye looks at it.

That's the problem with it, the design lacks identity to be considered Enterprise. When 1701-D was designed she looked nothing like any Trek vessel I'd ever seen; it was completely different but represented who the crew was and what the show will become? Instead of designing a vessel which would represent the crew and an optimistic path for future features to come the designer, John Eaves, wanted to play it safe by Frankenstein-ing bits and pieces of already established designs. I found similar issues with NX-01 and that abomination seen on Disco. I agree with "Yellow Flame Sushi", John Eaves was inept to be the designer of 1701-E

John Eaves himself, designer of the 1701-E, said it looks like a chicken in a pan. Whether that's better or worse than a duck is I guess up to personal preference

Mr. Eaves should keep his fucking opinions to himself; it's not as if he created a masterpiece in his ugly design of the Enterprise. Typical Hollywood thought processing sh*tting on what was just to make his thing look better, but his sh*t stinks, and as time passes by it stinks even more!

 

[Galileo7]

I never liked the E-D much either, but at the very least it could be seen as a legitimate evolutionary development in space vehicle design from the 23rd century Enterprises (and Excelsior). The E-E, however, is a corrupt mishmash of industrial design-free visual elements from both eras that was doodled by a singularly untalented illustrator.

That's the problem with it, the design lacks identity to be considered Enterprise. When 1701-D was designed she looked nothing like any Trek vessel I'd ever seen; it was completely different but represented who the crew was and what the show will become? Instead of designing a vessel which would represent the crew and an optimistic path for future features to come the designer, John Eaves, wanted to play it safe by Frankenstein-ing bits and pieces of already established designs. I found similar issues with NX-01 and that abomination seen on Disco. I agree with "Yellow Flame Sushi", John Eaves was inept to be the designer of 1701-E



Mr. Eaves should keep his fucking opinions to himself; it's not as if he created a masterpiece in his ugly design of the Enterprise. Typical Hollywood thought processing sh*tting on what was just to make his thing look better, but his sh*t stinks, and as time passes by it stinks even more!

Agree, if only the 1701-E could have been a design as majestic evolved from what was the 1701-Refit introduced in TMP.

 

[Gabriel]

That's the problem with it, the design lacks identity to be considered Enterprise. When 1701-D was designed she looked nothing like any Trek vessel I'd ever seen; it was completely different but represented who the crew was and what the show will become? Instead of designing a vessel which would represent the crew and an optimistic path for future features to come the designer, John Eaves, wanted to play it safe by Frankenstein-ing bits and pieces of already established designs. I found similar issues with NX-01 and that abomination seen on Disco. I agree with "Yellow Flame Sushi", John Eaves was inept to be the designer of 1701-E



Mr. Eaves should keep his fucking opinions to himself; it's not as if he created a masterpiece in his ugly design of the Enterprise. Typical Hollywood thought processing sh*tting on what was just to make his thing look better, but his sh*t stinks, and as time passes by it stinks even more!

Well all I can say is that I love the enterprise E design. And while I agree with yor thought on the discovery I also love the nx-01. Also your response is not so strong considering I doubt any of us could have done better designing a ship. Designing a ship to replace the enterprise D (which by the way from certain angles looks ugly unlike the constitution and the sovereign which look great from all angles, the latter just to me, the enterprise does look like a duck when you first see it.) mist have been pretty hard since it was a popular ship. However over the years like you have hated the E I have come to like the d a little bit more. One thing about the E at least it didn’t have that ridiculous big neck which Increase its profile and made it easier to hit. Unlike the E. But that’s just my opinion though. Of somebody who tries not to be a armchair designer if you know what I mean. Although I don’t always succeed. (As with my comments on the d) I like all designers because I try not to hate ships. Because again I’m not a designer. I don’t hate the D It’s just not my favorite design. But hey it’s natural for us to disagree. We all see things through different eyes. Also what part of the discovery you don’t like. For me it’s the saucer.

 

[STEPhon IT]

One thing about the E at least it didn’t have that ridiculous big neck which Increase its profile and made it easier to hit. Unlike the E. But that’s just my opinion though.

If Matt Jefferies wanted to design a bad ass warship, he could have, but he understood where Roddenberry was coming from and he designed something which would represent the show. Like wise with Mike Minor in designing a ship for feature films; understanding there are expectations from fans and don't make changes which would be so drastic that it would turn them off.
I have no doubt the ones who have grown too old for the concept of Star Trek, and have been raised on those TOS movies never bothered to rewatch Star Trek or ignored what was done on the series. I assumed because of the early stages of modern motion capture was the reason the 1701 was slow but after re-watching TMP I was wrong. The Enterprise hauls ass! It doesn't move slow; Nicholas Meyer --to many in this forum the greatest director who can't do no wrong-- decided to ignore what was done in TMP and made the Enterprise old and slow. He never bothered to re-use the sequence of the Enterprise leaving our solar system to show what that ship could do, it was cut. Yes I understand it was done to save time, also the ship was severely damage and it created an obstacle for Kirk in his rebuilding of the hero reborn, but after that film it seemed this slow movement was the norm until Meyer returned to show the new Enterprise in it's full motion glory, but again when the battle sequences happened the ship couldn't maneuver anymore. The neck and the panels can and will be a weakness if the f^cking thing can't move as a matter of fact any vessel would be in harms way if the ship is immobilized.

It's why I've given ENT "In A Mirror, Darkly Part II" more credit than it deserved because the production and the actors are all in on making the U.S.S Defiant this ultimate weapon. The characters in that episode were awestruck of how f*cking unbelievable this thing was; it moved like an X-wing fighter and had the power of the Dark Star. All of the bullsh*t out of the box, thump-thinking, which fans who had issues with the 1701 design are left where it needs to be - - no where near Star Trek. TNG* made a unique design and the series made a wonderful examination of the Galaxy Class, but Star Trek: Generations made every effort to make the ship worthless. DS9's "Jem Hadar" smeared further damage of that ship's reputation from fans turning pro. When fans start questioning the logistics of the fundamentals of the concept of Star Trek and calling them ridiculous they have grown too old for the concept.

*The episode "Cause and Effect" I thought was an example of what out of the box thinking from a writer who's not a fan of Star Trek. Neglecting to understand a ship which would be going to far off, deep space missions would have to be durable and strong enough to withstand ship collisions or objects from outer space. All of that stuff happening because a ship collided with the Enterprise's propulsion unit just didn't fly with my understanding of the design.

 

[Gabriel]

If Matt Jefferies wanted to design a bad ass warship, he could have, but he understood where Roddenberry was coming from and he designed something which would represent the show. Like wise with Mike Minor in designing a ship for feature films; understanding there are expectations from fans and don't make changes which would be so drastic that it would turn them off.
I have no doubt the ones who have grown too old for the concept of Star Trek, and have been raised on those TOS movies never bothered to rewatch Star Trek or ignored what was done on the series. I assumed because of the early stages of modern motion capture was the reason the 1701 was slow but after re-watching TMP I was wrong. The Enterprise hauls ass! It doesn't move slow; Nicholas Meyer --to many in this forum the greatest director who can't do no wrong-- decided to ignore what was done in TMP and made the Enterprise old and slow. He never bothered to re-use the sequence of the Enterprise leaving our solar system to show what that ship could do, it was cut. Yes I understand it was done to save time, also the ship was severely damage and it created an obstacle for Kirk in his rebuilding of the hero reborn, but after that film it seemed this slow movement was the norm until Meyer returned to show the new Enterprise in it's full motion glory, but again when the battle sequences happened the ship couldn't maneuver anymore. The neck and the panels can and will be a weakness if the f^cking thing can't move as a matter of fact any vessel would be in harms way if the ship is immobilized.

It's why I've given ENT "In A Mirror, Darkly Part II" more credit than it deserved because the production and the actors are all in on making the U.S.S Defiant this ultimate weapon. The characters in that episode were awestruck of how f*cking unbelievable this thing was; it moved like an X-wing fighter and had the power of the Dark Star. All of the bullsh*t out of the box, thump-thinking, which fans who had issues with the 1701 design are left where it needs to be - - no where near Star Trek. TNG* made a unique design and the series made a wonderful examination of the Galaxy Class, but Star Trek: Generations made every effort to make the ship worthless. DS9's "Jem Hadar" smeared further damage of that ship's reputation from fans turning pro. When fans start questioning the logistics of the fundamentals of the concept of Star Trek and calling them ridiculous they have grown too old for the concept.

*The episode "Cause and Effect" I thought was an example of what out of the box thinking from a writer who's not a fan of Star Trek. Neglecting to understand a ship which would be going to far off, deep space missions would have to be durable and strong enough to withstand ship collisions or objects from outer space. All of that stuff happening because a ship collided with the Enterprise's propulsion unit just didn't fly with my understanding of the design.

Also some of its concepts are just too far out for me but I still love I just sometimes have to change how I look at it. In which the enterprise D may be a great ship but it is too damn big and seems a little bulky. Don’t get me wrong I believe it’s still a great ship but in my opinion the next one was better. Frankly have a ship with kindergartens on just about every deck and loads of civilians isn’t a good idea. Now there is saucer separation but that doesn’t work all the time. Also on cause and effect it was a ship moving ship hit another moving ship. In real life when that happens it’s bad. And remember they weren’t focusing on the collision but the events before it. Writers tend to let things slide when they have a tight schedule. Also maybe the sovereign showed that the federation understood that a explore first defense second or third wouldn’t cut very well against Foes with the exact opposite Philosophy. I’m not saying that they went all military, but found a better balance.
The d seem to lean a lot on science. The constitution however seem to have the perfect balance and the sovereign in my opinion is close to that balance.