So is Kira First Officer of the Defiant?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by tomswift2002, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Is it perhaps not more telling that in Shadows and Symbols, neither Kira nor Worf uses the Defiant? Of course, Kira couldn't organize a Bajoran opposition to the Romulans from the Defiant, but clearly Worf didn't get to take it to put Jadzia into Stovokor. Neither may do with it as he or she pleases--not like a Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And sometimes the necessity also works well in-universe. For example "Sons of Mogh" explicates the concept of Kira in command as a political gesture through which Bajor asserts its control of the star system and flips the bird on the Klingons. The setup is exceptional enough that the characters comment on it, but clearly Sisko is allowed to make exceptions - it's literally his ship, a piece of junk nobody in Starfleet wanted before Sisko dragged it out of a junk heap for a suicide mission that failed, and nobody in Starfleet wanted after this, either.

    The same with "Shadows and Symbols", even if in sort of reverse: again it's Bajor that needs to show force there, and drawing Starfleet into it would just not work well. Ross can veto the use of the Defiant, and no doubt would, but he can't stop Kira from using the native ships. Those are for Kira to play with.

    No two minds about that. But it really was the briefest of commands. And a fairly unique moment at that. Perhaps this had to do with the Prophets being the specific party incapacitating the CO? Perhaps Worf was all "Bajoran mumbo-jumbo, let her sort if out"?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    No, what I have suggested is that the chain of command within Star Trek is often mission specific, a principle that is more or less followed in Doomsday Machine, Arsenal of Freedom, and even Pen Pals. The CO seems to be able to rearrange authority depending on the tasks being performed and the circumstances being encountered.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But what I want to offer instead is that we can see method to this madness, an overarching system with very few exceptions. Worf always having dibs for Sisko's ship is a well-working model, with just two exceptions that both have a clear political basis and explicitly diverge from the expected, and then "Tears".

    This IMHO is not just preferable for simplicity, but superior to claiming that the exceptions should be explained as the CO's prerogative and whim - because two of the Kira-in-command instances have nothing to do with Sisko's wishes, "Tears" being an apparently automatic reaction to the CO getting knocked out and "Shadows" being Kira's private mutiny against Starfleet. The third, in "Sons of Mogh", warrants so much dialogue that it being an exception to some sort of a well-established norm seems like the default assumption.

    In any case, it's not an issue with how Starfleet does things, because Kira is not Starfleet to begin with. It's something else altogether.

    In any case, Starfleet does not vary its practices here much. Even if the hero ship is Sisko's personal toy, he never puts unexpected Starfleet personnel in command over more natural choices, the way Picard or Kirk might have done. Within Starfleet, after Sisko it's always the available top dog, be it Dax or Worf.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry, evidence rules. Besides, Worf could not launch without the station's approval, just as a CAG would have encountered.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure what evidence should be considered contrary to Worf always getting the dibs. The one time when Sisko gives a speech about going against established practice?

    And of course Worf isn't the top boss. He's just the one who gets the ship when the ship is launched without Sisko, as per established practice. (Which is even put into dialogue once, without corresponding contradicting dialogue anywhere.)

    Timo Saloniemii
     
  7. XCV330

    XCV330 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It may be a retcon, but there was prior precedent for Kira as an XO on a starfleet vessel: T'Pol.
     
  8. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    The evidence shows, in the words that you have put it, that Sisko says who gets dibs. Worf's place wasn't on the bride of the Defiant when the Dominion fleet poured through the Wormhole: it was in Ops.
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Assuming you're talking about In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light, then Worf was actually in a Dominion Prison camp when the Dominion fleet arrived through the wormhole.
     
  10. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry, I was thinking of Call to Arms.
     
  11. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    We should perhaps include runabouts in our deliberations. They aren't shuttles but are basically mini starships with "USS" and "NCC" designations attached to DS9. I can't remember off hand who commanded what with the runabouts but clearly Sisko is the go to guy that defines what happens with them. What he does with the runabouts probably sketched out a broad precedence as to what happens with the Defiant. I'd also like to imagine Kira took some crash course in the way that Troi did in TNG to get her command pips and expertise to do the job. Given how clue-less that character was in Disaster it's not that implausible Kira got a crash course of her own to get her up to speed.
     
  12. Farscape One

    Farscape One Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the cases of "PARADISE LOST", "RULES OF ENGAGEMENT", and "STARSHIP DOWN", the Defiant was being used for official Starfleet business, so it makes sense to have a Starfleet officer in command, despite Kira's rank or position.

    In "SONS OF MOGH", she was in command because that situation was happening within/around the edge of Bajoran space, and Starfleet does not have full authority in their space, just essentially administration of DS9. So it made sense for Kira to command there.

    For "TEARS OF THE PROPHETS", I think it was simply a case of in the moment thinking, combined with the mutual understanding that Kira has more command experience and Worf had more weapon/battle experience, so there was no argument about who commands there.
     
  13. sumbuddyx

    sumbuddyx Captain Captain

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    I think when Sisko's commanding the Defiant second in command falls to Kira or whoever's next in rank. When Sisko's not there Kira commands the station and Worf commands the Defiant. Kira takes over command in Tears of the Prophets when Sisko's incapacitated, not Worf. But in Apocalypse Rising Kira commands the station and Worf commands the Defiant. Could Kira have given Worf orders in that scenario? I feel like she could and would have but she wanted him on side so didn't push the issue. I don't think her serving under Worf at other times is contradictory, but even if it is, it's possible it feels that way in-universe too. Perhaps before each mission they simply hash out who's in charge, but we don't see that part.
     
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    I think Sons of Mogh had more to do with the fact that Worf was under reprimand for attempted murder.
    Yes, Kira is the ranking officer on board the station, and technically speaking the CO of any ship docked at the station has to follow her orders while they are docked there.
     
  15. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Whilst he was an NCO, command could have been given to O'Brien

    1.>He was Chief of Operations (so a department head)
    2.>He had extensive experience in combat serving as Tactical Officer under Maxwell and Picard.
    3.>For Worf's extradition hearing in "Rules of Engagement" he was considered in the area of starship combat
     
  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    True, Worf was reprimanded for that, but it still made sense to have Kira command as it was an attempt to blockade Bajoran space.
     
  17. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If the station was under attack, you'd really want O'Brien to give his full attention to keeping the shields up and the weapons online.

    The chain of command after the main players isn't really clear on DS9. We know it went something like:

    Sisko
    Kira
    Worf
    Jadzia Dax
    Eddington (when he was there)

    After that who knows? I assume in the real world Kira would have had a Bajoran deputy, probably a lieutenant, who was next in line. IIRC we do see various Bajoran officers in and around Ops commanding during the night shift or whatever, but none of them get screen time.
     
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  18. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The only other Bajoran command officer with identified rank was an unnamed Ensign, who only appeared in "Dramatis Personae" so is unlikely to be Kira's number two. The only named Bajoran command officer (Nalan Bal per one of the CCGs) doesn't appear to wear an insignia, but did appear quite a few times, usually in Ops or off-duty so might be a decent candidate.

    Other candidates for Relief Duty Officer are Mark Lentry's unnamed regular Starfleet command officer (promoted from Ensign to Lieutenant and then Commander during the series) and Stuart Nixon's unnamed lieutenant (only a handful of appearances, but specifically IDed as taking over Ops when Sisko was leaving for the night).
     
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  19. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Although, that very episode has O'Brien stating he isn't eligible to take command.
     
  20. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Something that must be appreciated when analyzing Apocalypse Rising is that Worf always asserts that he has more authority and more autonomy than he really has. Indeed, Worf insisted that it was his prerogative to fight above command in the earliest episodes of TNG. His word can't be given full trust when it comes to such matters.