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So I'll Ask the Niners........

Photon

Commodore
Commodore
For those of you who've seen 11, do find the portrayal of the Romulans refreshing (passionate, emotional, and very evil)sort of like the anti-Vulcan. Or, do you prefer the the cool,calculating, and aloof race as presented by DS9 and TNG.

I will prolly be the only one who feels this way but I found them refreshing. Reason: these ppl broke away from Vulcan b/c they followed their passions (et,al). Seemingly, writers made them too much like Vulcans becoming their evil twin.

Perhaps its just being a space miner that gave these Rommies so much hate and being a part of the Romulan military you must be be more in control of your emotions. Don't know, just thinking out loud.

Thoughts?

(mods, just lock it if deem it should be moved to another place)
 
Weren't they so anti-Vulcan because of the Vulcans' (or Spock's if you don't take the Countdown series into account) inability to save their homeworld? As I recall, Nero didn't really have much of an issue with the Vulcans before then, he was busy mining.

Either way, they were sort of refreshing in a way, but to be 100% honest Nero wasn't the strongest character going. It was good that he was passionate (as Romulans really should be about some things, and I'm not just talking about the "It's a faaaaake" scene), but I think the calculating Romulans of TNG and DS9 are closer to what I really feel we should expect.

I think I'm 75% pro TNG/DS9 Romulans and 25% pro Star Trek XI
 
The Romulans we saw in TNG and DS9 were all military or Tal Shiar operatives. The Romulans from STXI were ordinary miners who lost it (and got a badass technology) after losing their homeworld. Of course they were not going to be the same. For that matter, I dislike the idea that all members of an alien species should act the same (though apparently many other people don't share this idea - see frequent complaints such as that character XY, for instance, "does not act like a Vulcan". :rolleyes:).

Although, I also wouldn't say that Commander Toreth from "The Face of the Enemy" was either cold or calculated, and neither did Jarok - they were both quite passionate about their beliefs, just not in the crazy way.
 
Vulcans that give into their emotionalism and passions do not create a viable society, they become destructive and kill one another with nuclear weapons. Whoever led the Romulan exodus must have known this and created a society which allowed for emotions but which did not allow those passions to lead the people, otherwise the Romulans would have died out long before they became a Star Empire.

So I, for one, welcome our old, calculating Romulan overlords. :) I could do with the head-ridge though.
 
The Romulans we saw in TNG and DS9 were all military or Tal Shiar operatives. The Romulans from STXI were ordinary miners who lost it (and got a badass technology) after losing their homeworld. Of course they were not going to be the same. For that matter, I dislike the idea that all members of an alien species should act the same (though apparently many other people don't share this idea - see frequent complaints such as that character XY, for instance, "does not act like a Vulcan". :rolleyes:).

Although, I also wouldn't say that Commander Toreth from "The Face of the Enemy" was either cold or calculated, and neither did Jarok - they were both quite passionate about their beliefs, just not in the crazy way.

Good point, esp re. Jarok.

I just tire of seeing all Kligons as head-banging, loud, blood-thirsty savages and the same w/Romulans being cold, unemotional, and condescending-heck he can always look up the nearest Vulcan to get that kinda 'tude
 
For those of you who've seen 11, do find the portrayal of the Romulans refreshing (passionate, emotional, and very evil)sort of like the anti-Vulcan. Or, do you prefer the the cool,calculating, and aloof race as presented by DS9 and TNG.
I'm actually unhappy at both portrayals. I think they've missed the boat on really fleshing out the Rommies to be real characters and compelling archetypes in the Trek alien mold.

The Rommies in the TV series were always frustratingly underdeveloped. I never really got a good read on who they were. Abrams' movie didn't improve the situation, just muddled it. His Rommies didn't seem convincingly alien at all. They were just humans with funny foreheads. They'd been wronged. They wanted revenge. They cracked some jokes. How exactly are they aliens?

Humans - or any other Trek alien species - could have stepped right into their shoes and nothing would have been different. All important Trek aliens must be unique and never interchangeable. When there are Vulcans in a story, they should have to be Vulcans or the story changes. Ditto for Klingons, etc.

The key to Romulans is understanding Vulcans. They both have the same problem - emotions that are stronger and more violent than humans. So how do they manage to have a functioning society at all? Obviously they must have come upon some kind of accommodation long ago. For Vulcans, it's making a fetish of repression and logic. For Rommies, it must be something else, perhaps linked to their secrecy and xenophobia. There's some reason that they hide their true selves especially around outsiders. This is the aspect of their species that needs to be explored so that they will not only seem like "real" characters but also not just humans with funny foreheads.

And that is why Nero's joke-cracking and overall loose attitude felt wrong to me. He's not being repressed and secretive enough for a Rommie. But to know exactly why that was "wrong" - and it only felt wrong at gut level - I'd have to know what the larger plan is for the Rommies, for finally fleshing out exactly who they are. There is no plan, and that's the problem.

For that matter, I dislike the idea that all members of an alien species should act the same (though apparently many other people don't share this idea - see frequent complaints such as that character XY, for instance, "does not act like a Vulcan". :rolleyes:).
It's a tricky balance to achieve. They must act "alien" (and limited to a certain behavioral range) enough that we accept them as a coherent alien species and not just humans with funny foreheads. But they must act individual enough that they can serve as believable, "real" characters in a story. They cannot just be "types."

The right way to do it: Garak, Damar, Dukat. All Cardassians, all believable as members of the same species and not humans, yet all distinct from one another as individuals. Add in the minor Cardies we met along the way, and you have a wonderfully believable portrait of a whole species, constructed from maybe a dozen characters in total. That's what the Romulans need.
 
I miss the shoulderpads. Anyone who doubts that Kirstie Alley is half-Romulan, check her out on Cheers - those are some shoulders.

Romulans these days have shoulders that border on sanity.

Seriously though, the Romulans in Star Trek XI were unremarkable, and Temis is correct in that Romulans tend to be underdeveloped (they've always been one-upped by other races - the Klingons on TOS, the Cardassians on DS9, etc.)
 
In terms of portrayal I think Bana and the other actors playing Romulans did what they could with poorly written and in the end terribly under-utilised characters. They just seemed to be your stock standard movie villains and in regards to that aspect I found them very disappointing.
 
I liked the Romulans in XI. They weren't much like the Romulans from the TV shows, but for the reasons people have outlined above I can buy them as Romulans nonetheless.
 
Ideally, a fictional alien race would be similar to humans as far as diversity is concerned (since logically an alien society would be more than just a caricature of our own), yet different in some fundamental way (since an alien society would not be a carbon copy of our own either).

Trek races tend to start as caricatures and gradually become more and more human-like. At the end of the day Trek uses alien cultures as a way of exploring various facets of human culture more so than anything else.

Nero didn't work for me as a villain, but not because he didn't conform to the Romulan archtype. He just didn't get enough screentime for his motivations to be fleshed out. For those that read some of the supplements to the movie, such as the Countdown comics, this helped a bit, but mostly Nero amounted to a generic bad guy in the actual film, with a dash of hommage to Khan.
 
I liked the Romulans in XI. They weren't much like the Romulans from the TV shows, but for the reasons people have outlined above I can buy them as Romulans nonetheless.

I personally think that expecting civilians to act the same way as military or Tal Shiar is not really sensible.

For instance, would we say that Ulani Belor, Gilora Rejal, or Tekeny Ghemor weren't Cardassian enough because they were warm and accepting of people of other species? They were all Cardassian, but boy did their behavior fly against stereotype. The first two were civilians; Tekeny...well, he's just Tekeny. :D
 
I liked the Romulans in XI. They weren't much like the Romulans from the TV shows, but for the reasons people have outlined above I can buy them as Romulans nonetheless.

I personally think that expecting civilians to act the same way as military or Tal Shiar is not really sensible.

For instance, would we say that Ulani Belor, Gilora Rejal, or Tekeny Ghemor weren't Cardassian enough because they were warm and accepting of people of other species? They were all Cardassian, but boy did their behavior fly against stereotype. The first two were civilians; Tekeny...well, he's just Tekeny. :D


This.

I agree with the posters who a) don't think military or Tal Shiar Romulans would necessary be much like ordinary citizens, and b) don't think that all members of a single race need to BE alike in any event.
 
I personally think that expecting civilians to act the same way as military or Tal Shiar is not really sensible.

For instance, would we say that Ulani Belor, Gilora Rejal, or Tekeny Ghemor weren't Cardassian enough because they were warm and accepting of people of other species?
If those were the only Cardies we'd been shown, without the stage being set by Garak and Dukat (and later Damar), then the Cardies wouldn't come off any better than the Rommies have, so you're just helping prove my point.

I don't care whether civilians "should" act different from military. I care that the Rommies haven't been presented as a believable Trek alien species, with a coherent identity of their own. Whether that is best achieved by civilians or soldiers is irrelevant. They haven't done it, and they need to. If civilians aren't going to help with this process, change the story so that they're soldiers. There's no rule that said the Rommies in the movie had to be civilians at all.

But the development of the Rommies probably can't be done well in movies - not enough screen time. Just another reason that Trek needs to be back on TV. Put Rommies on hold until they can be properly developed on TV and then bring them back into the movies.
don't think that all members of a single race need to BE alike in any event.
They need to be alike enough that we can accept them as aliens in the first place. All Trek species are just humans with some characteristics edited away and a few emphasized. Think of them as truncated humans. :D None of them are truly alien because audiences must be able to relate to them. This means that all Trek alien species will be less diverse than humans. There's no way around this problem - the silliness of Trek aliens being truncated humans is an effective, if imperfect, solution.
 
Personally i didnt like the 11 portrayal of the Romulans at all. Having grown to love TNG and DS9 i just couldnt adapt to the new portrayal.
 
Frankly, I barely noticed whether they were a proper portrayal of Romulans or not. Nero and his crew of thugs didn't really have much of a chance for development. They were simply foils for the Good-Guys, with Nero himself being a little more on the sadistic side due to his overwhelming bitterness.

Not that I felt this was a bad thing regarding the movie -after all, the main conflict of the flic was whether the Enterprise crew We All Know And Love would overcome the odds to become the Enterprise crew We All Know And Love. Nero and co. were simply catalysts for that.

It does make me wonder, though, whether we'll see any Rommies in the nu-Trekverse, and how they'll be portrayed: classic sneaky, or like Nero's group.
 
I personally think they are overused to begin with. But, I like how they are portrayed in TNG and DS9 best.

In XI, they lacked everything that makes for an interesting character. I mean, 'The God Thing' from V was a better villian than Nero :rolleyes:
 
For those of you who've seen 11, do find the portrayal of the Romulans refreshing (passionate, emotional, and very evil)sort of like the anti-Vulcan. Or, do you prefer the the cool,calculating, and aloof race as presented by DS9 and TNG.

I will prolly be the only one who feels this way but I found them refreshing. Reason: these ppl broke away from Vulcan b/c they followed their passions (et,al). Seemingly, writers made them too much like Vulcans becoming their evil twin.

Perhaps its just being a space miner that gave these Rommies so much hate and being a part of the Romulan military you must be be more in control of your emotions. Don't know, just thinking out loud.

Thoughts?

(mods, just lock it if deem it should be moved to another place)

I liked the character of Nero, and the performance by Bana, but found his actions too driven by plot logic.

I suppose I do prefer the notion of Romulans as Vulcans unchained, however. Whether that came through in ST11 is a very arguable position.
 
The Romulans simply haven't been explored enough for me to feel one way or another-- but "Nero" was a one-dimensional lunatic.
 
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