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So how important is canon, then?

No fandom is less imaginative and more OCD than Trek fandom.

Still odd. The consensus among Trek fans appears to be that continuity is not particularly important; indeed, this appears to be your stance, if I understand you correctly. If your statement directly above is true, then the majority of Trek fans would place a high value on continuity, but I don't see this happening. Meanwhile, MCU fans, who are according to your statement less concerned with continuity, place a high value on it.
 
So, in the context of my original question, one implication of your statement is that Trek fans are more imaginative and less OCD than MCU fans. I'm not saying that's not true; I've studied fandom a lot, though, and it doesn't seem to be true. In my experience, there's a large amount of crossover between Trek fans and MCU fans. Do you find that MCU fans are more OCD?
I don't, no. I think Trek fans put far more emphasis on having explanations on things, and are far less accepting of changes to the material. And if there are changes then there better be a good explanation for it, and even then that will be held as suspect because the writers are not true Trek fans.

It should go without saying that this isn't all Trek fans, but this has been my experience since Abrams Trek.
 
So, in the context of my original question, one implication of your statement is that Trek fans are more imaginative and less OCD than MCU fans. I'm not saying that's not true; I've studied fandom a lot, though, and it doesn't seem to be true. In my experience, there's a large amount of crossover between Trek fans and MCU fans. Do you find that MCU fans are more OCD?
I don't, no. I think Trek fans put far more emphasis on having explanations on things, and are far less accepting of changes to the material. And if there are changes then there better be a good explanation for it, and even then that will be held as suspect because the writers are not true Trek fans.

It should go without saying that this isn't all Trek fans, but this has been my experience since Abrams Trek.was released.
 
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It should go without saying that this isn't all Trek fans, but this has been my experience since Abrams Trek.was released.

So good you said it twice :lol:

So then, are you positing that JJverse fans are more OCD and less imaginative that Prime timeline fans?

I'll also add, again in the context of the original question, that the reviews that I read of MCU efforts tends to praise their continuity. While these are "professionals", all that means is that they're pros at giving their opinions, but their opinions appear to be that continuity has value. What leads them toward that conclusion? Is the consensus that they, too, have little imagination and high OCD?
 
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So good you said it twice :lol:

So then, are you positing that JJverse fans are more OCD and less imaginative that Prime timeline fans?
Yeah, my computer is not happy this morning...

No, not at all. I think that there is a segment of Trek fans that have become more OCD and less imaginative and that started becoming more apparent with the release of Abrams' Trek, or more apparent via the Internet. Though I've seen news articles from the 80s that reflect a similar attitude towards TNG, so it is probably a feature, not a bug.
 
Yeah, my computer is not happy this morning...

Just jerking your chain there. I've had that happen a couple of times here.

No, not at all. I think that there is a segment of Trek fans that have become more OCD and less imaginative and that started becoming more apparent with the release of Abrams' Trek, or more apparent via the Internet. Though I've seen news articles from the 80s that reflect a similar attitude towards TNG, so it is probably a feature, not a bug.

So what do you think caused this? Fair notice, I revised my post that you had responded to, and that's what I'm really trying to address.
 
I'll also add, again in the context of the original question, that the reviews that I read of MCU efforts tends to praise their continuity. While these are "professionals", all that means is that they're pros at giving their opinions, but their opinions appear to be that continuity has value. What leads them toward that conclusion? Is the consensus that they, too, have little imagination and high OCD?
I think this is steering away from what @BillJ was initially meaning, or my interpretation. I don't think the MCU writers have little imagination. Possibly high OCD, but the MCU is ostensibly designed that many things slot together, references are constantly pointing forward to the next installment with some degree of freedom within. I think the thing that I found interesting was a comment from a reviewer that Marvel will utilize things like Agents of Shield to allow for that flexibility, allowing for characters they don't think will hold a movie but still want to play around with. And, the Netflix series don't feel like the are contiguous with the the films, though no doubt the intent is there. So, I think the MCU has built in to their DNA that flexibility.

Ok, with that set up, to answer the question, I think continuity is important if you set it up first. The MCU was set up to do that, and even then it became very painful in its drive for this one piece project in different phases. And, yes I think that has some OCD elements that while important to them, are not as important to me, and is an active deterrence for me to watch because it is no longer entertaining; it feels like homework.

Star Trek has always been a different animal. It has not been set up as this massive monolith, as even TMP distance itself a little from TOS, as noted by color elements, Kirk has a different presentation, and a much different emphasis on new characters. There was a substantial effort create something distinct. Same with TWOK. And then TNG came along and it created this Star Trek box and the presentation of apparent continuity, augmented by a lot o supplemental material.

Now, we have difficulty imagining something outside that Star Trek box. And that's where the OCD and lack of imagination comes in with Star Trek. The MCU feels similar because it feels inflexible. .
 
I think this is steering away from what @BillJ was initially meaning, or my interpretation.

My mistake. I had assumed that both of your were replying to my original question (why is continuity valued in the MCU and not in Trek?) instead of simply adding a comment to the thread.

Now, we have difficulty imagining something outside that Star Trek box. And that's where the OCD and lack of imagination comes in with Star Trek. The MCU feels similar because it feels inflexible. .

I think your explanation is possible. Not sure if I agree with it, but I can at least follow your reasoning.

What I question immediately is that the idea that continuity is valued in the MCU because it was designed that way. If sf audiences as a whole had little concern for continuity, then designing an interlinked entertainment to have high continuity wouldn't do much to sway them. If they didn't like continuity in the first place, they'd probably ignore it, maybe bad mouth it (although I tend to doubt that), but they wouldn't praise it. Yet, among fans and (what I'll call) casual fans, and reviewers, continuity in the MCU gets high marks. I don't think designing it to have high continuity would change minds among people who don't value continuity in the first place.

On the other hand, if sf audiences as a whole valued continuity, then it would likely be valued in Trek, but based on the general comments here it isn't (and I would consider TrekBBS to be a reasonable cross-section of Trek fandom).

This leads me to believe that there's a fundamental difference between Trek fandom and MCU fandom. I find this odd as well, as in my experience most fans are multi-franchise fans, which on the surface would make it likely that a majority of Trek fans would also be MCU fans.

I'm also not sure I go with your last last, that the MCU feels similar because it feel inflexible. It's pretty well established that the people behind the MCU went to great lengths to make sure that it all fit together, with Endgame in mind from the beginning. That being said, consider how many different tones and styles had to mesh in Infinity War and Endgame, not to mention plot details. Just adding the Guardians of the Galaxy was a feat. If someone had told me, when the MCU was first starting out, that the could have pulled that off I would have laughed (too tonally different than, say, Captain America), but overall I thought it worked. So, I don't think it feels similar because it's inflexible. I think it's incredibly flexible, and was made to feel similar, i.e., canonically consistent, through skill.
 
Yet, among fans and (what I'll call) casual fans, and reviewers, continuity in the MCU gets high marks.

But how many of them are there that are there for continuity? I've seen most of the MCU films, couldn't tell you what any of them are about, and sure couldn't tell you about any continuity issues. There are articles out there about continuity issues with the various films.

I think, largely, the MCU lives on the same nostalgia that Star Trek, Star Wars and a few others live on. People are reliving their youths through the films.
 
First, thanks for a thoughtful response.

But how many of them are there that are there for continuity?

I would guess that very, very few are there FOR the continuity, but that a large majority APPRECIATE the continuity. Again, not something I have numbers to back up, but the difference is an important one, in that, again, the majority of Trek fans do not appear to have the same feeling.

There are articles out there about continuity issues with the various films.

I'm sure they're there. I think it would nearly impossible eliminate them completely. On the other hand, I'd hazard a guess that the number and severity of continuity errors in Trek is at least an order of magnitude higher, maybe two. That's a significant variance IF sf fan's value of continuity is homogeneous across fandoms.

I think, largely, the MCU lives on the same nostalgia that Star Trek, Star Wars and a few others live on. People are reliving their youths through the films.

Like my examples above I'm guessing this statement is apocryphal. Are there any specific, measurable behaviors you can point to that make you think this is true? For my personal path, I'll admit, for instance, that one of many, many reasons that I like TOS goes back to childhood experiences, but they weren't always pleasant experiences. My father strongly dissuaded me from watching TOS as a child, saying that it would warp my mind (I think he was unaware of the pun). On the other hand, I like DS9 a great deal, and I was an adult when that appeared.
 
Like my examples above I'm guessing this statement is apocryphal. Are there any specific, measurable behaviors you can point to that make you think this is true? For my personal path, I'll admit, for instance, that one of many, many reasons that I like TOS goes back to childhood experiences, but they weren't always pleasant experiences. My father strongly dissuaded me from watching TOS as a child, saying that it would warp my mind (I think he was unaware of the pun). On the other hand, I like DS9 a great deal, and I was an adult when that appeared.

Like you, I had a rough childhood and the original Star Trek represented an escape. I still see it as an escape from the drudges of adult life. Probably why Discovery and Picard don't completely work for me, they are unabashedly dark with the end of everything being at the center of every story. I get that type of storytelling from a lot of different places and want a more positive, optimistic spin on what is to come in our far future from Trek.

There aren't any specific data points I can call out, but I think this thread points largely to continuity being a secondary concern for the even (not the hardest of hard core) more than mildly interested fan base.

Now, excuse me while I go back to flipping through the Franz Joseph Technical Manual for the 1000th time. I do give Discovery props for including the service corridor around the Enterprise bridge.
 
Like you, I had a rough childhood and the original Star Trek represented an escape.

Slight correction to your interpretation of what I had said. I wouldn't say my childhood was particularly rough, nor that my father was a bad guy. He loved TV particularly westerns, and I enjoyed watching with him. He just didn't see the value of Star Trek, and seemed genuinely concerned that it would somehow damage me.

There aren't any specific data points I can call out, but I think this thread points largely to continuity being a secondary concern for the even (not the hardest of hard core) more than mildly interested fan base.

Just so. And, at least at the moment, what I'm trying to determine is why there seems to be a significant and inexplicable difference between two fandoms where, given what we know, I wouldn't expect to see one.

Now, excuse me while I go back to flipping through the Franz Joseph Technical Manual for the 1000th time. I do give Discovery props for including the service corridor around the Enterprise bridge.

Enjoy.
 
Just so. And, at least at the moment, what I'm trying to determine is why there seems to be a significant and inexplicable difference between two fandoms where, given what we know, I wouldn't expect to see one.

Is there really a difference though? The MCU probably has a spectrum of fans just like Trek does.
 
Is there really a difference though? The MCU probably has a spectrum of fans just like Trek does.

I'm sure all fandoms have a spectrum. That said, a large number of behaviors can be statistically plotted/predicted, so we can say (for example) what percentage of fans will do X and what percentage won't like Y. In this instance I can say:

  • If i extrapolate from the reactions in this and similar threads, I can say (purely as a theory, to be tested or discarded) a large majority of Trek fans do not value continuity.
  • Same conditions, based on commentary and reviewer posts, I can say a large majority of MCU fans do value continuity.
  • At the moment I don't have a theory, let alone a testable theory, to explain what seems to be a huge discrepancy in what I would expect, which is one of the reasons I'm posting here :-)
 
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I think your explanation is possible. Not sure if I agree with it, but I can at least follow your reasoning.

What I question immediately is that the idea that continuity is valued in the MCU because it was designed that way. If sf audiences as a whole had little concern for continuity, then designing an interlinked entertainment to have high continuity wouldn't do much to sway them. If they didn't like continuity in the first place, they'd probably ignore it, maybe bad mouth it (although I tend to doubt that), but they wouldn't praise it. Yet, among fans and (what I'll call) casual fans, and reviewers, continuity in the MCU gets high marks. I don't think designing it to have high continuity would change minds among people who don't value continuity in the first place.

On the other hand, if sf audiences as a whole valued continuity, then it would likely be valued in Trek, but based on the general comments here it isn't (and I would consider TrekBBS to be a reasonable cross-section of Trek fandom).

This leads me to believe that there's a fundamental difference between Trek fandom and MCU fandom. I find this odd as well, as in my experience most fans are multi-franchise fans, which on the surface would make it likely that a majority of Trek fans would also be MCU fans.
Here's where I think we are at a crossroad: I do not think there is a black and white between Trek fans and MCU and valuing continuity or not. I think, as @BillJ notes, there is a large spectrum. As the joke goes, ask ten Trek fans what they like about Trek and you'll get twenty different answers.

I can only speak for myself and my observations. Continuity is something I care about in broad strokes, and generally within a contained work. So, the MCU isn't something I am overly bothered about the continuity of because I just watch individual films. I just recently watched Dr. Strange for the first time, and prefer his individual story over the stupidly large Endgame that I had to turn off. But, I can appreciate the level of effort put in to the MCU to build up that continuity, even if that isn't why I watch it.

With Trek, that's a different animal. I never expect Trek to have continuity as that went out the window with TMP and TWOK. It simply had different variation, even if the broad strokes were somewhat consistent, i.e. starships, transporter, etc.

I think that continuity in the MCU gets high marks because people recognize the work and effort that goes in to it. My favorites authors right now are Jim Butcher and Brandon Sanderson. Now, these two writers put a lot of emphasis on continuity of their worlds. Sanderson is ridiculously detailed oriented and intergrates multiple books series under his collective universe. Now, while that is not the reason why I enjoy his stories I can certainly appreciate the effort put in to make that possible.

Continuity, for me, will come down to "It depends" in terms of importance.
I'm also not sure I go with your last last, that the MCU feels similar because it feel inflexible. It's pretty well established that the people behind the MCU went to great lengths to make sure that it all fit together, with Endgame in mind from the beginning. That being said, consider how many different tones and styles had to mesh in Infinity War and Endgame, not to mention plot details. Just adding the Guardians of the Galaxy was a feat. If someone had told me, when the MCU was first starting out, that the could have pulled that off I would have laughed (too tonally different than, say, Captain America), but overall I thought it worked. So, I don't think it feels similar because it's inflexible. I think it's incredibly flexible, and was made to feel similar, i.e., canonically consistent, through skill.
And that skill is appreciated. But that's not the base conceit of Star Trek.

As for being inflexible, I'm not talking about tone. I am talking about how the story progresses. The MCU feels like a giant train that is chugging right along its tracks and come hell or high water it will arrive at its "Endgame." If a character isn't important enough to warrant appearing in that ending then you can be sure he'll be left by the wayside, regardless of continuity. Things like "The Defenders" just don't get a part of that despite popularity.

Now, contrast that with Trek. Trek went from DSC with plans for S31 to Picard and Strange New Worlds. There was flexibility in what stories they wanted to tell based upon audience response. The MCU just keeps chugging along regardless.

That's what I mean by inflexible. If it isn't in the plan it gets binned.
 
More fanon
EMH: Tuvok, I understand. You are a Vulcan man. You have just gone without for seven years about.
KOV: Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.
T'POL: On Vulcan, we mate only once every seven years.
PARIS: Ah. This wouldn't be the kind of imbalance that comes around once every seven years?
 
EMH: Tuvok, I understand. You are a Vulcan man. You have just gone without for seven years about.
KOV: Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.
T'POL: On Vulcan, we mate only once every seven years.
PARIS: Ah. This wouldn't be the kind of imbalance that comes around once every seven years?

I don't see anything precluding sex outside that schedule. T'Pring wanted Stonn, and Stonn wanted T'Pring.
 
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