So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoilers)
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Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
Quite possibly. Doing his own take on it is probably more likely. I can't see Moffat revealing anything too shattering, but rather posing even more questions about the character.
Quite possibly. Doing his own take on it is probably more likely. I can't see Moffat revealing anything too shattering, but rather posing even more questions about the character.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
i doubt it. Moff has said that the mysterious nature of the Doctor is a key part of the show's mythos.
i doubt it. Moff has said that the mysterious nature of the Doctor is a key part of the show's mythos.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
Although this would be a very interesting thing to flesh out, I agree that I would like it better if the Doctor's true origins are not revealed in great detail. It would spoil some of the mystery of the character for me. Conjecture is more fun.
I do think it would be pretty cool to hint in the direction of this story line, but to not do anything that would confirm or exclude it. Maybe present it as information someone other than the Doctor knows and offers (the Doctor himself may not even realize this information at this point), but don't present it onscreen in black & white....
Although this would be a very interesting thing to flesh out, I agree that I would like it better if the Doctor's true origins are not revealed in great detail. It would spoil some of the mystery of the character for me. Conjecture is more fun.
I do think it would be pretty cool to hint in the direction of this story line, but to not do anything that would confirm or exclude it. Maybe present it as information someone other than the Doctor knows and offers (the Doctor himself may not even realize this information at this point), but don't present it onscreen in black & white....
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
More the reverse, I'd say. Yes, The Question (and all the rest) is there to come back to sometime, for a big event, but in the meantime, the show can sideline all the 'Doctor as immensely important, ender of the TIme War, etc etc' stuff, and get back to square one: he's a wanderer, looking around, helping out, and trying not to be noticed.
More the reverse, I'd say. Yes, The Question (and all the rest) is there to come back to sometime, for a big event, but in the meantime, the show can sideline all the 'Doctor as immensely important, ender of the TIme War, etc etc' stuff, and get back to square one: he's a wanderer, looking around, helping out, and trying not to be noticed.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
I think the show has already been successful in making the Doctor a highly important, unique character. Of course, killing off the competition went a long way in doing that
If anything, the goal is to make him more low-key.
I think the show has already been successful in making the Doctor a highly important, unique character. Of course, killing off the competition went a long way in doing that
If anything, the goal is to make him more low-key.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
In the name of almighty Rassilon I hope not. Seriously why do people want to screw around with the Doctor's origins. The current one is fine. The Doctor is a member of the Time Lords who got bored with just watching history and decided to steal a Tardis and see the Universe. Nice, simple, to the point.
I really don't want to know that the Doctor is secretly Elvis or that all the Time Lords are a figment of his imagination or that the Doctor actually died during the Time War and that we've been following the adventures of Omega who took over the Doctor's identity.
In the name of almighty Rassilon I hope not. Seriously why do people want to screw around with the Doctor's origins. The current one is fine. The Doctor is a member of the Time Lords who got bored with just watching history and decided to steal a Tardis and see the Universe. Nice, simple, to the point.
I really don't want to know that the Doctor is secretly Elvis or that all the Time Lords are a figment of his imagination or that the Doctor actually died during the Time War and that we've been following the adventures of Omega who took over the Doctor's identity.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
Assuming the question is asked at the end of the Eleventh Doctor's tenure, I have a feeling the question will be asked but go unanswered, or perhaps that will be when the Doctor tells his name to River; either way, I'll wager 500 quatloos the next thing that happens will be his regeneration.
Assuming the question is asked at the end of the Eleventh Doctor's tenure, I have a feeling the question will be asked but go unanswered, or perhaps that will be when the Doctor tells his name to River; either way, I'll wager 500 quatloos the next thing that happens will be his regeneration.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
QFT man, QFT. The Cartmel master plan was a load of portentous, pretentious twaddle designed to add mystery where none was needed. It also lead to one of the daftest moments in Who history, in Silver Nemesis.
Lady P: I know your secret, Doctor! I know who you really are! And I'm going to tell everyone! Ha ha ha!
Doctor: Go on then.
Lady P: Oh yes, your big secret that you have hidden away for all these years. Your dark secret, that will end you. Your SECRET secret, that is such a secret that you have no choice but to keep it secret! And I'm going to tell.
Doctor: Fair enough. You tell.
Lady P:Oh, don't you try and stop me Doctor. I will tell, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Doctor: Well, I'll not bother then. You go ahead.
Lady P: Aha! Here is a Cyberleader. I will tell him the secret of your secret origin!
Cyberleader: What's this? A once in a lifetime opportunity to gain secret information on the origin of our greatest enemy? Information of incalculable value to the Cyber-race? Naah, not interested.
Lady P: Bugger. (She goes loony and kills herself)
Later:
Ace: Doctor? you know that big secret that Lady P was going to tell everyone?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: And you were happy for everyone to know?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: Even the Cybermen, your second worstest enemies?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: Can you tell me please?
Doctor: No.
Roll end credits.
QFT man, QFT. The Cartmel master plan was a load of portentous, pretentious twaddle designed to add mystery where none was needed. It also lead to one of the daftest moments in Who history, in Silver Nemesis.
Lady P: I know your secret, Doctor! I know who you really are! And I'm going to tell everyone! Ha ha ha!
Doctor: Go on then.
Lady P: Oh yes, your big secret that you have hidden away for all these years. Your dark secret, that will end you. Your SECRET secret, that is such a secret that you have no choice but to keep it secret! And I'm going to tell.
Doctor: Fair enough. You tell.
Lady P:Oh, don't you try and stop me Doctor. I will tell, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Doctor: Well, I'll not bother then. You go ahead.
Lady P: Aha! Here is a Cyberleader. I will tell him the secret of your secret origin!
Cyberleader: What's this? A once in a lifetime opportunity to gain secret information on the origin of our greatest enemy? Information of incalculable value to the Cyber-race? Naah, not interested.
Lady P: Bugger. (She goes loony and kills herself)
Later:
Ace: Doctor? you know that big secret that Lady P was going to tell everyone?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: And you were happy for everyone to know?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: Even the Cybermen, your second worstest enemies?
Doctor: Yes.
Ace: Can you tell me please?
Doctor: No.
Roll end credits.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
I don't think the Masterplan itself, but he's walking the same road in that there is intent to bring back some mystery to the character. That's about as far as it goes. I don't see, for example, any likelihood of suggesting the Doctor isn't a Time Lord (or if he is that he's "The Other" or Rassilon or Jesus or whatever). Gallifrey is out of the picture so we won't be seeing any "House of Lungbarrow"-like business. But I think Moffat is doing exactly what he should be doing: taking a franchise that is nearly a half-century old, with a lead character who over the last 6 years has been elevated to near omnipotence, and bringing him back down to a more manageable level. Sort of like how the James Bond movies reached their heights of fantasy with Moonraker (1979) and Die Another Day (2002), only for the next films to be realistic, serious, earth-bound spy stories with For Your Eyes Only (1981) and Casino Royale (2006), in the process reinvigorating the franchise and gaining it renewed respect.
Time will tell, of course, but we might well look back at Series 7 as the Casino Royale to Series 6's Die Another Day, if Moffat and his writers play their cards right.
In answer to Yminale's comment above about "screwing around" with the origins: part of that is an inevitable bowing to current storytelling standards and expectations. Even back in the late 1980s when Cartmel kicked his plan into high gear, simple origins weren't good enough. Characters needed "shades of grey" and some element of mystery. Certainly post-911 that's been a case. I've been told one reason why Doctor Who isn't bigger in America is because the lead character is too "good", too much a hero. Even though RTD preemptively addressed this by having the Doctor destroying his own home planet, for heaven's sake.
But there are rules that must be followed. Hence, RTD created Torchwood, so Captain Jack and his crew could do things that would never be allowed on Doctor Who. Exhibit A: how Jack resolved Children of Earth.
But still, there is a need to tweak, refine and update hero origins and make them more relevant to today's audiences. For better or for ill, we're seeing that play out in DC Comics right now with the reboot. And short of ending the series and starting from scratch with a reimagining, Moffat and the BBC are giving us a compromise. I for one see no problem with such a compromise - as long as it is done well.
And that we don't find out the Doctor's real name is Hank or something.
Alex
I don't think the Masterplan itself, but he's walking the same road in that there is intent to bring back some mystery to the character. That's about as far as it goes. I don't see, for example, any likelihood of suggesting the Doctor isn't a Time Lord (or if he is that he's "The Other" or Rassilon or Jesus or whatever). Gallifrey is out of the picture so we won't be seeing any "House of Lungbarrow"-like business. But I think Moffat is doing exactly what he should be doing: taking a franchise that is nearly a half-century old, with a lead character who over the last 6 years has been elevated to near omnipotence, and bringing him back down to a more manageable level. Sort of like how the James Bond movies reached their heights of fantasy with Moonraker (1979) and Die Another Day (2002), only for the next films to be realistic, serious, earth-bound spy stories with For Your Eyes Only (1981) and Casino Royale (2006), in the process reinvigorating the franchise and gaining it renewed respect.
Time will tell, of course, but we might well look back at Series 7 as the Casino Royale to Series 6's Die Another Day, if Moffat and his writers play their cards right.
In answer to Yminale's comment above about "screwing around" with the origins: part of that is an inevitable bowing to current storytelling standards and expectations. Even back in the late 1980s when Cartmel kicked his plan into high gear, simple origins weren't good enough. Characters needed "shades of grey" and some element of mystery. Certainly post-911 that's been a case. I've been told one reason why Doctor Who isn't bigger in America is because the lead character is too "good", too much a hero. Even though RTD preemptively addressed this by having the Doctor destroying his own home planet, for heaven's sake.
But there are rules that must be followed. Hence, RTD created Torchwood, so Captain Jack and his crew could do things that would never be allowed on Doctor Who. Exhibit A: how Jack resolved Children of Earth.
But still, there is a need to tweak, refine and update hero origins and make them more relevant to today's audiences. For better or for ill, we're seeing that play out in DC Comics right now with the reboot. And short of ending the series and starting from scratch with a reimagining, Moffat and the BBC are giving us a compromise. I for one see no problem with such a compromise - as long as it is done well.
And that we don't find out the Doctor's real name is Hank or something.
Alex
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
In the last episode we see Amelia looking silent and sad as The Doctor is about to reveal his name. The camera focuses on The TARDIS and everything begins to shake and snow begins to fall and we pull back to reveal Amelia in a living room playing with a snow globe with a tiny TARDIS inside.
In the last episode we see Amelia looking silent and sad as The Doctor is about to reveal his name. The camera focuses on The TARDIS and everything begins to shake and snow begins to fall and we pull back to reveal Amelia in a living room playing with a snow globe with a tiny TARDIS inside.
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Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
I believe that various hints have been dropped that the Doctor is destined to be a closed loop in time who forms a vital thread in the tapestry of the universe. He is a paradox with no beginning and no end - akin to the Ouroboros that the Corsair had tattooed onto his arm after each of his/her regenerations. My expectation is that the Doctor's final regeneration will lead back to the first Doctor (possibly via the Other and the Looms), link to the origin of the Time Lords, and conclude with the story of why he stole the Tardis. That's my expectation, which I wholly accept is likely to be proven wrong. I just like overarching grand designs in dramatic fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(Doctor_Who)
I believe that various hints have been dropped that the Doctor is destined to be a closed loop in time who forms a vital thread in the tapestry of the universe. He is a paradox with no beginning and no end - akin to the Ouroboros that the Corsair had tattooed onto his arm after each of his/her regenerations. My expectation is that the Doctor's final regeneration will lead back to the first Doctor (possibly via the Other and the Looms), link to the origin of the Time Lords, and conclude with the story of why he stole the Tardis. That's my expectation, which I wholly accept is likely to be proven wrong. I just like overarching grand designs in dramatic fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_(Doctor_Who)
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
How dare you imply that we are knit wits just because we like to post in threads in the fabric of this board.
How dare you imply that we are knit wits just because we like to post in threads in the fabric of this board.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
Sometimes I like to needle people but don't worry, you won't get lost in my proverbial haystack.
Sometimes I like to needle people but don't worry, you won't get lost in my proverbial haystack.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
I'm reminded of this line from "The Family of Blood" 2 parter
“He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe. And... he's wonderful. - Tim Latimer”
Referrences to the lonely god, all seem to be hinting that there is something Speical about the Doctor. Perhaps what will happen is that in order to maintain a balance the Universe itself won't let the Doctor Die.
I'm reminded of this line from "The Family of Blood" 2 parter
“He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe. And... he's wonderful. - Tim Latimer”
Referrences to the lonely god, all seem to be hinting that there is something Speical about the Doctor. Perhaps what will happen is that in order to maintain a balance the Universe itself won't let the Doctor Die.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
Sounds like The Doctor is a "fact" or the very thing that Jack was that he ran away from because he was just wrong.
Sounds like The Doctor is a "fact" or the very thing that Jack was that he ran away from because he was just wrong.
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
It's from part of the Cartmel Master Plan stuff. According to it, Gallifreyeans don't reproduce like we do; instead, they're formed as adults by "Looms" held by each of the major families on Gallifrey, woven together from the DNA of the rest of the family.
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Loom
It's from part of the Cartmel Master Plan stuff. According to it, Gallifreyeans don't reproduce like we do; instead, they're formed as adults by "Looms" held by each of the major families on Gallifrey, woven together from the DNA of the rest of the family.
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Loom
Re: So, has Moffat brought back the Cartmel Master Plan? (6x13 Spoiler
The Other threw himself into the Looms to escape Rassilon's despotism, and was supposedly reincarnated as the first Doctor. From "Lungbarrow" by Marc Platt:
The Other threw himself into the Looms to escape Rassilon's despotism, and was supposedly reincarnated as the first Doctor. From "Lungbarrow" by Marc Platt:
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