SNW Chapel seems to have all of TOS Uhura traits.

[Sci]

@valden, I think you have valid claims, in that Chapel is certainly a greater focus than Uhura in SNW so far,

No. SNW has given them roughly equal attention. Fans may be paying more attention to Chapel than to Uhura, but that is not a function of the narrative.

and her confidence stands out more than Uhura’s.

Again, audience reaction is the responsibility of the audience, not the narrative. Uhura's story is explicitly a story about a young woman gaining confidence. That is as legitimate a story as one about a woman who already has self-confidence.

You are also right that in the Kelvin films, Uhura did show a flirty side somewhat towards Kirk

What??? She blows Kirk off at every point.

Chapel in the Kelvin universe is the same deal, although she’s been nothing but a bootycall to Kirk so far.

Yeah, fair.

However, I don’t think that there is a particular agenda to take from TOS Uhura and give to SNW Chapel. I would say that its more that the characters are undergoing arcs to explain their origins and how they end up where they end up in TOS.

Agreed.

Uhura’s arc is to go from the cadet in SNW to the graceful officer she was in TOS and the TOS films. So, she is allowed to grow and develop skillsets over time. Not having her established skillsets at this point in time doesn’t make her a kid at all. It means she is inexperienced and with develop experience. And that experience will give her greater confidence than she has displayed in SNW. Also, we don’t know if Uhura got a shot at Spock prior to TOS. SNW will answer that, since they also have to explore how Spock and T’Pring fell apart to begin with, and Spock meeting Leila Kalomi. And finally, Uhura in SNW lost her parents and brother, while to our knowledge, Uhura in the Kelvinverse did not; the implication being that Uhura gained strength from her family, and Uhura in SNW will have to find a way to gain her strength.

100%.

Chapel’s arc is going from this in-your-face personality in SNW to a shadow of her former self in TOS that is then followed by fading out all together to the point she’s working at Starfleet HQ on Earth in TVH - instead of joining Kirk, Spock, Uhura et al one adventures - and never seen or mentioned again after that film.

I don't agree that Chapel is "in-your-face," and I really hope her arc in SNW isn't about losing her self-confidence and becoming a shadow of herself. That would be a horrible story.

 

[fireproof78]

So they will just continue to dismiss or come up with convoluted work arounds when canon breaks are brought up.

This is literally whaat I have done for as long as I was a Trek fan and talking with my friends. Coming up with explanations, convoluted or otherwise, was considered a part of Trek fandom and a part of the fun. Now it's regarded as an albatross around the neck for trying to find ways for it to fit together. Where canon is more important than personal enjoyment of an entertainment vehicle. At this point I don't understand any more.

 

[Sci]

I remember the constant online complaining about Enterprises look. I always felt it looked perfectly fine for 22nd century trek. That show adhered to canon much better than SNW and Discovery imo.

Nah. ENT had as many continuity violations and violations-of-fanon (examples: Earth only four days away from Qo'noS; Human/Klingon first contact seeming to occur 70 years earlier than TNG "First Contact" had implied; transporter technology existing in the mid-22nd Century instead of being developed in the early 23rd Century as TNG "Realm of Fear" had implied) as SNW and DIS. We've just had 20 years to get used to it.

Anyhow...I dont think anyone is going to call you a troll. But most here do not seem to care about TOS conintuity anymore, or even like TOS as much anymore...lol. So they will just continue to dismiss or come up with convoluted work arounds when canon breaks are brought up.

I mean, ST has always had discontinuities and fans have always replied with convoluted workarounds. An example right off the bat -- TOS going from the Enterprise being a United Earth ship of the United Earth Space Probe Agency to being a United Federation of Planets starship of the Federation Starfleet, and all the convoluted workarounds fans have invoked to try to pretend that that wasn't a retcon.

 

[FederationHistorian]

It's entirely reasonable to be dismissive of this entire collection of wrong claims and the incoherent lines of "reasoning" that @valden has put forth to keep this topic going. Yes, Chapel is a bigger deal right now than Uhura. So what?

Maybe you and Richard S. Ta and others might prefer to dismiss. I’d rather debate and deconstruct and not push others to feel excluded for different viewpoints. Treat others as peers, not as someone beneath me to talk to.

Has she? I think Uhura had more character centered episodes.

Yes, there have been more character centered episodes for Uhura. But Chapel’s been in every episode of SNW.

A one line name drop.

Which still tells us about Chapel in the Kelvin universe.

I feel like they both came out pretty much equal and it's Ortegas who is the loser in Season 1.

Or maybe its not Ortegas’ time to shine yet. Hence the lack of focus on her so far. What a concept.

But the lack of focus on her in the first season makes her the loser apparently. Even though she got about the same as Hemmer. Though, unlike Hemmer, she’s actually making it to the second season of SNW.

No. SNW has given them roughly equal attention. Fans may be paying more attention to Chapel than to Uhura, but that is not a function of the narrative.

No. Uhura has had episodes centered around her, but Chapel has a consistent presence. In fact, Chapel has been in every episode of SNW, while Uhura is absent in “The Serene Squall”.

What??? She blows Kirk off at every point.

No. Uhura in the bar scene does flirt with Kirk a little, in a hard-to-get kind of way. It’s the other scenes where she resists Kirk and is irritated by him.

I don't agree that Chapel is "in-your-face," and I really hope her arc in SNW isn't about losing her self-confidence and becoming a shadow of herself. That would be a horrible story.

After Korby disappears, Spock becomes Chapel’s rock, or at least that how she seems to see him as in TOS. And we are seeing the origins of that.

The alternative could be that Chapel retains her confidence as seen in SNW, but the way she displays that confidence just doesn’t fit in with the structure and formality that Kirk brings to the Enterprise.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Maybe you and Richard S. Ta and others might prefer to dismiss. I’d rather debate and deconstruct and not push others to feel excluded for different viewpoints. Treat others as peers, not as someone beneath me to talk to.

valden was requested by several moderators to stop ranting. It was way beyond sensible debate. And it went on and on.

 

[Pauln6]

Maybe you and Richard S. Ta and others might prefer to dismiss. I’d rather debate and deconstruct and not push others to feel excluded for different viewpoints. Treat others as peers, not as someone beneath me to talk to.



Yes, there have been more character centered episodes for Uhura. But Chapel’s been in every episode of SNW.



Which still tells us about Chapel in the Kelvin universe.



Or maybe its not Ortegas’ time to shine yet. Hence the lack of focus on her so far. What a concept.

But the lack of focus on her in the first season makes her the loser apparently. Even though she got about the same as Hemmer. Though, unlike Hemmer, she’s actually making it to the second season of SNW.



No. Uhura has had episodes centered around her, but Chapel has a consistent presence. In fact, Chapel has been in every episode of SNW, while Uhura is absent in “The Serene Squall”.



No. Uhura in the bar scene does flirt with Kirk a little, in a hard-to-get kind of way. It’s the other scenes where she resists Kirk and is irritated by him.



After Korby disappears, Spock becomes Chapel’s rock, or at least that how she seems to see him as in TOS. And we are seeing the origins of that.

The alternative could be that Chapel retains her confidence as seen in SNW, but the way she displays that confidence just doesn’t fit in with the structure and formality that Kirk brings to the Enterprise.

I agree with much of what you say but Chapel actually gets two name drops in the first two Kelvin movies. The second one was the insulting one since it portrayed her in the same way as TOS- only relevant because of her relationship to a man. I always thought Rand was the one with the huge untapped potential so, while I do think that there are slight issues with her being a nurse instead of a biologist, and they way the focus shifted quickly to her growing feelings for Spock, I've been impressed that they have been able to big her up and make her not only interesting, but a fan favourite.

I would say NuUhura politely tolerated Kirk's initial flirtation and they put enough in there for the bait and switch to NuSpock. I'm not convinced that she was particularly actively flirting though; just using the female defence mechanism of keeping the guy happy until you can get away, while in her case at least, being flattered by the attention.

If anyone watched Soap in the eighties, Ortegas is like Benson, she steals the scene with her witty quips while not yet having a full episode focus. It's kind of the level that I was hoping for Rand back in the day: Mince onto the bridge, say something witty, get a signature, mince off. Attend landing party, fix communicators using a hairpin and knicker elastic etc. She helps showcase other characters. I really like Ortegas.

 

[Mudd]

Maybe you and Richard S. Ta and others might prefer to dismiss. I’d rather debate and deconstruct and not push others to feel excluded for different viewpoints. Treat others as peers, not as someone beneath me to talk to.

Knock yourself out. Life's too short.

 

[Sci]

No. Uhura has had episodes centered around her, but Chapel has a consistent presence. In fact, Chapel has been in every episode of SNW, while Uhura is absent in “The Serene Squall”.

Chapel got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (tracking down the alien), "Children of the Comet" (flirting with Spock), "Ghosts of Illyria" ("I'm good at my job"), and "All Those Who Wander" (scene at the end with Spock). She got two subplots in "Spock Amok" (scenes with Spock and T'Pring-Spock) and "The Serene Squall" (scenes with Spock).

Score: 4 scenes, 2 subplots.

Uhura got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (intro), "Ghosts of Illyria" (her roommates), "Momento Mori" (scenes with Hemmer), "The Elysian Kingdom" (she's the villain! love it!), "All Those Who Wander" (scenes with Hemmer and the memorial), and "A Quality of Mercy" (the "Balance of Terror" re-creations), and she also got an entire episode devoted to her in "Children of the Comet."

Score: 6 scenes, 1 episode.

Uhura is a bigger presence in SNW S1 than Chapel.

No. Uhura in the bar scene does flirt with Kirk a little, in a hard-to-get kind of way. It’s the other scenes where she resists Kirk and is irritated by him.

Ah, this scene:

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To review: Kirk hits on her by attempting to pay for her drink order without her permission and without even introducing himself. She refuses. He attempts to introduce himself by implying there is something wrong with rejecting his sexual advances without first knowing his name; she declines to learn his name. He then makes a third sexual advance and introduces himself after he has been told she does not want to talk to him. He then attempts to pressure her into giving him -- a stranger at the bar who has disregarded her explicitly-stated boundaries three times already -- her name.

Annoyed, hoping to get him to stop, Uhura gives him her last name. He then pressures her into giving him her first name (this is now the fifth time he has disregarded her boundaries); she again declines but does smile.

Kirk then enters her personal space without her permission, explicitly sexually harassing her for the fifth time, and asks her what her focus of study is. She answers "xenolinguistics" and remarks that he does not know what that means in a transparent attempt to re-assert power in a situation with a stranger who is ignoring her boundaries by causing him embarrassment. Kirk accurately defines xenolinguistics and then sexually harasses her again (now the sixth time).

Uhura smiles, says she is impressed, and remarks that for a moment she thought he was "just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals." Kirk replies, "Well. Not only." Only at this point does Uhura genuinely laugh.

They are then interrupted by other Starfleet cadets who have accurately observed that Kirk is sexually harassing her. Uhura affirms that his advances are unwanted but assures the other cadets she can handle him; Kirk sexually harasses her for the seventh time. The other cadet intervenes, and then Kirk provokes the bar fight.

Now, maybe, maybe, maybe you live in a world where a woman being sexually harassed by a man at a bar who disregards her stated boundaries seven times is "flirting" when she smiles. But in the real world, smiling in that context is usually an indication that the woman is attempting to control her anger out of concern that the situation could escalate into a dangerous conflict with a man whom she does not know or trust. The only time she genuinely laughs is the moment Kirk makes fun of himself. Now, maybe she might have been willing to talk to him in response to him displaying that minuscule level of humility, but even then that would not necessarily be an indication of flirtation.

Bottom line: Uhura does not flirt with Kirk in the Kelvin Timeline films.

After Korby disappears, Spock becomes Chapel’s rock, or at least that how she seems to see him as in TOS. And we are seeing the origins of that.

Maybe. But I really hope we're not seeing the beginnings of a story about how a confident woman becomes a shadow of her former self. That would be horrible and frankly misogynistic. I don't really give a damn if that's how you think she was portrayed in TOS; fuck continuity if it means perpetuating the misogynistic narrative politics of the 1960s.

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Federation Historian said: "Chapel’s arc is going from this in-your-face personality in SNW to a shadow of her former self in TOS that is then followed by fading out all together to the point she’s working at Starfleet HQ on Earth in TVH - instead of joining Kirk, Spock, Uhura et al one adventures - and never seen or mentioned again after that film. Jess Bush’s charisma is needed to display the stage of Chapel’s life where it seemed like Chapel had all the potential in the world, and that there was a time when she had a lot of spirit in her life until she seemingly lost her confidence."
With respect I would disagree with your asessment of Chapel as "fading out altogether to the point she's working at Starfleet HQ on Earth." This is fading out? She's a Command rank now. There is much more to life than zipping around in Starships having adventures; and has it occurred to anyone that she got married, had some children, and is in the process of raising them at the time of the Whales? I don't quite get how you go from CMO of a starship to Commander of Ops but she did it. She did it to stay with her children and her marriage perhaps.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Chapel got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (tracking down the alien), "Children of the Comet" (flirting with Spock), "Ghosts of Illyria" ("I'm good at my job"), and "All Those Who Wander" (scene at the end with Spock). She got two subplots in "Spock Amok" (scenes with Spock and T'Pring-Spock) and "The Serene Squall" (scenes with Spock).

Score: 4 scenes, 2 subplots.

Uhura got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (intro), "Ghosts of Illyria" (her roommates), "Momento Mori" (scenes with Hemmer), "The Elysian Kingdom" (she's the villain! love it!), "All Those Who Wander" (scenes with Hemmer and the memorial), and "A Quality of Mercy" (the "Balance of Terror" re-creations), and she also got an entire episode devoted to her in "Children of the Comet."

Score: 6 scenes, 1 episode.

Uhura is a bigger presence in SNW S1 than Chapel.



Ah, this scene:

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To review: Kirk hits on her by attempting to pay for her drink order without her permission and without even introducing himself. She refuses. He attempts to introduce himself by implying there is something wrong with rejecting his sexual advances without first knowing his name; she declines to learn his name. He then makes a third sexual advance and introduces himself after he has been told she does not want to talk to him. He then attempts to pressure her into giving him -- a stranger at the bar who has disregarded her explicitly-stated boundaries three times already -- her name.

Annoyed, hoping to get him to stop, Uhura gives him her last name. He then pressures her into giving him her first name (this is now the fifth time he has disregarded her boundaries); she again declines but does smile.

Kirk then enters her personal space without her permission, explicitly sexually harassing her for the fifth time, and asks her what her focus of study is. She answers "xenolinguistics" and remarks that he does not know what that means in a transparent attempt to re-assert power in a situation with a stranger who is ignoring her boundaries by causing him embarrassment. Kirk accurately defines xenolinguistics and then sexually harasses her again (now the sixth time).

Uhura smiles, says she is impressed, and remarks that for a moment she thought he was "just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals." Kirk replies, "Well. Not only." Only at this point does Uhura genuinely laugh.

They are then interrupted by other Starfleet cadets who have accurately observed that Kirk is sexually harassing her. Uhura affirms that his advances are unwanted but assures the other cadets she can handle him; Kirk sexually harasses her for the seventh time. The other cadet intervenes, and then Kirk provokes the bar fight.

Now, maybe, maybe, maybe you live in a world where a woman being sexually harassed by a man at a bar who disregards her stated boundaries seven times is "flirting" when she smiles. But in the real world, smiling in that context is usually an indication that the woman is attempting to control her anger out of concern that the situation could escalate into a dangerous conflict with a man whom she does not know or trust. The only time she genuinely laughs is the moment Kirk makes fun of himself. Now, maybe she might have been willing to talk to him in response to him displaying that minuscule level of humility, but even then that would not necessarily be an indication of flirtation.

Bottom line: Uhura does not flirt with Kirk in the Kelvin Timeline films.



Maybe. But I really hope we're not seeing the beginnings of a story about how a confident woman becomes a shadow of her former self. That would be horrible and frankly misogynistic. I don't really give a damn if that's how you think she was portrayed in TOS; fuck continuity if it means perpetuating the misogynistic narrative politics of the 1960s.

I think that is a really interesting debrief on the scene and I agree with it wholeheartedly

What I will say is that I never noticed it that way when I've watched it and I wonder if it being Trek gives scenes like that an undeserved innocence and makes them "acceptable" due to the enlightened future making us believe that no one would take it beyond words whereas the reality is far from that.

 

[Sci]

I think that is a really interesting debrief on the scene and I agree with it wholeheartedly

What I will say is that I never noticed it that way when I've watched it and I wonder if it being Trek gives scenes like that an undeserved innocence and makes them "acceptable" due to the enlightened future making us believe that no one would take it beyond words whereas the reality is far from that.

That scene in ST09 really is a prime example of rape culture: It literally depicts a man sexually harassing a woman by disregarding her stated boundaries seven times, but it depicts these actions as the charming antics of a harmless rake rather than as the indications of potential danger that they would be in reality.

 

[Pauln6]

Chapel got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (tracking down the alien), "Children of the Comet" (flirting with Spock), "Ghosts of Illyria" ("I'm good at my job"), and "All Those Who Wander" (scene at the end with Spock). She got two subplots in "Spock Amok" (scenes with Spock and T'Pring-Spock) and "The Serene Squall" (scenes with Spock).

Score: 4 scenes, 2 subplots.

Uhura got important scenes in "Strange New Worlds" (intro), "Ghosts of Illyria" (her roommates), "Momento Mori" (scenes with Hemmer), "The Elysian Kingdom" (she's the villain! love it!), "All Those Who Wander" (scenes with Hemmer and the memorial), and "A Quality of Mercy" (the "Balance of Terror" re-creations), and she also got an entire episode devoted to her in "Children of the Comet."

Score: 6 scenes, 1 episode.

Uhura is a bigger presence in SNW S1 than Chapel.



Ah, this scene:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To review: Kirk hits on her by attempting to pay for her drink order without her permission and without even introducing himself. She refuses. He attempts to introduce himself by implying there is something wrong with rejecting his sexual advances without first knowing his name; she declines to learn his name. He then makes a third sexual advance and introduces himself after he has been told she does not want to talk to him. He then attempts to pressure her into giving him -- a stranger at the bar who has disregarded her explicitly-stated boundaries three times already -- her name.

Annoyed, hoping to get him to stop, Uhura gives him her last name. He then pressures her into giving him her first name (this is now the fifth time he has disregarded her boundaries); she again declines but does smile.

Kirk then enters her personal space without her permission, explicitly sexually harassing her for the fifth time, and asks her what her focus of study is. She answers "xenolinguistics" and remarks that he does not know what that means in a transparent attempt to re-assert power in a situation with a stranger who is ignoring her boundaries by causing him embarrassment. Kirk accurately defines xenolinguistics and then sexually harasses her again (now the sixth time).

Uhura smiles, says she is impressed, and remarks that for a moment she thought he was "just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals." Kirk replies, "Well. Not only." Only at this point does Uhura genuinely laugh.

They are then interrupted by other Starfleet cadets who have accurately observed that Kirk is sexually harassing her. Uhura affirms that his advances are unwanted but assures the other cadets she can handle him; Kirk sexually harasses her for the seventh time. The other cadet intervenes, and then Kirk provokes the bar fight.

Now, maybe, maybe, maybe you live in a world where a woman being sexually harassed by a man at a bar who disregards her stated boundaries seven times is "flirting" when she smiles. But in the real world, smiling in that context is usually an indication that the woman is attempting to control her anger out of concern that the situation could escalate into a dangerous conflict with a man whom she does not know or trust. The only time she genuinely laughs is the moment Kirk makes fun of himself. Now, maybe she might have been willing to talk to him in response to him displaying that minuscule level of humility, but even then that would not necessarily be an indication of flirtation.

Bottom line: Uhura does not flirt with Kirk in the Kelvin Timeline films.



Maybe. But I really hope we're not seeing the beginnings of a story about how a confident woman becomes a shadow of her former self. That would be horrible and frankly misogynistic. I don't really give a damn if that's how you think she was portrayed in TOS; fuck continuity if it means perpetuating the misogynistic narrative politics of the 1960s.

Thank you for refreshing my memory about how sexist JJ Trek was for a 21st century update. I was being far too charitable. Makes me feel even worse about how they treated NuChapel! That some people genuinely view this as Uhura flirting with NuKirk is a bit worrying.

Mind you, some people were also criticising SNW Chapel for being too sexually liberated because she dumped her friend with benefits. I guess we probably can't have liberated women unless we have predatory men though?

 

[Voodoowoman2]

Thank you for refreshing my memory about how sexist JJ Trek was for a 21st century update. I was being far too charitable. Makes me feel even worse about how they treated NuChapel! That some people genuinely view this as Uhura flirting with NuKirk is a bit worrying.

Mind you, some people were also criticising SNW Chapel for being too sexually liberated because she dumped her friend with benefits. I guess we probably can't have liberated women unless we have predatory men though?

Excellent observation. Women's sexual freedom tore down the barriers of propriety and chivalry. I personally don't think Spock will have a very positive attitude to Miss "Buddies with benefits." I know he's attracted, but he does think about things. I love Chapel but I will be honest. She treated Dever kinda badly. Dumping your date when you spot a better prospect is what used to be called "vulgar." Oh, all those Victorian niceties! She's still quite a bit of a child emotionally and she's almost 30 years old. Imagine being at a Victorian ball and a gentleman properly asks you to dance. You accept and he leads you out onto the floor. Wait! Prince Charming is over there! Oh! Dump your dance partner and fly over to talk to Prince Charming! Very Very bad manners.
In that respect I agree with some that Chapel is trying to infiltrate. Her flirtations are not innocent and she is the one who initiated the open mouth kiss. Spock followed suit but SHE was the first one. She wants to be close to him emotionally, first as a friend and later as more. She used giving advice about T'Pring as an excuse to maneuver closer. Then, she turns around and tells Spock there are no feelings between them. She was seeing Spock as a "hot snack", which he is, but she gets very surprised by his sincerity and honesty.
NuChapel was IMHO a deliberate slap in the face.

 

[Sci]

Excellent observation. Women's sexual freedom tore down the barriers of propriety and chivalry.

Not all forms of "propriety" and "chivalry" were actually good things. A lot of them were more about controlling women than about decency.

I personally don't think Spock will have a very positive attitude to Miss "Buddies with benefits."

Why would he object to someone having consensual sex? There's nothing wrong with it.

I know he's attracted, but he does think about things. I love Chapel but I will be honest. She treated Dever kinda badly. Dumping your date when you spot a better prospect is what used to be called "vulgar."

I think you're making a lot of assumptions that aren't supported by the text. For one thing, we already know that Chapel had made it clear before they met in the bar that she did not want a romantic relationship with Dever. So that's not a "date" in the sense of some sort of meaningful social obligation.

He met up with her at the bar and then made it clear that he did want a romantic relationship -- that's his right. But he had to know going into that choice that she might reaffirm her opposition to a romantic relationship, and he had no claim to her time whatsoever if she did not reciprocate his desire for a romance. Furthermore, it seems pretty damn clear that he did not make any effort beforehand to ascertain whether she was actually interested in a romance; he just announced that he wanted a romantic commitment without soliciting her feelings first. That's not the least bit courteous nor does it give him any right to her time; that's deeply selfish behavior.

Third -- for all we know, maybe she did go back to hanging out with him after her conversation with Spock. We don't know one way or the other. But this was not a "date" in the sense you appear to mean it, and Dever had no right to expect her to continue spending time with him after he tried to change the terms of their relationship while making no effort to solicit her feelings.

Finally -- she didn't "spot a better prospect." She saw a friend at the bar and went to talk to him. She then helped him with his relationship problems. She wasn't boyfriend-shopping.

She's still quite a bit of a child emotionally

Pure nonsense.

Imagine being at a Victorian ball and a gentleman properly asks you to dance. You accept and he leads you out onto the floor. Wait! Prince Charming is over there! Oh! Dump your dance partner and fly over to talk to Prince Charming! Very Very bad manners.

It is true that different things are appropriate in different cultural contexts. For instance, the context of Victorian culture is that it was deeply misogynistic, and therefore directed at shaming women if they didn't acquiesce to male desires to control them. Victorian manners, in other words, were deeply immoral.

In the context of a world where men and women are equal, it is not bad manners to leave someone when one person tries to change the terms of the relationship without making a meaningful effort to see if the other person feels similarly. Which Dever did not do.

In that respect I agree with some that Chapel is trying to infiltrate. Her flirtations are not innocent and she is the one who initiated the open mouth kiss. Spock followed suit but SHE was the first one.

Oh, yes, let's blame the woman for the kiss the man initiated, when they were both acting under duress in order to try to resolve a life-threatening hostage crisis.

She wants to be close to him emotionally, first as a friend and later as more.

She pre-emptively shot him down after the kiss before he even had the chance to try to hit on her.

She used giving advice about T'Pring as an excuse to maneuver closer.

No. She saw a friend and offered advice, and in the course of doing so realized she was starting to develop feelings for him, and refused to act on those feelings.

Then, she turns around and tells Spock there are no feelings between them. She was seeing Spock as a "hot snack",

No. She was not acting with an intent to hit on him.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Excellent observation. Women's sexual freedom tore down the barriers of propriety and chivalry. I personally don't think Spock will have a very positive attitude to Miss "Buddies with benefits." I know he's attracted, but he does think about things. I love Chapel but I will be honest. She treated Dever kinda badly. Dumping your date when you spot a better prospect is what used to be called "vulgar." Oh, all those Victorian niceties! She's still quite a bit of a child emotionally and she's almost 30 years old. Imagine being at a Victorian ball and a gentleman properly asks you to dance. You accept and he leads you out onto the floor. Wait! Prince Charming is over there! Oh! Dump your dance partner and fly over to talk to Prince Charming! Very Very bad manners.
In that respect I agree with some that Chapel is trying to infiltrate. Her flirtations are not innocent and she is the one who initiated the open mouth kiss. Spock followed suit but SHE was the first one. She wants to be close to him emotionally, first as a friend and later as more. She used giving advice about T'Pring as an excuse to maneuver closer. Then, she turns around and tells Spock there are no feelings between them. She was seeing Spock as a "hot snack", which he is, but she gets very surprised by his sincerity and honesty.
NuChapel was IMHO a deliberate slap in the face.

Sometimes your observations are insightful, and then other times - YIKES! It's like two different people are posting. Although this version of you is the first one I encountered on this forum. Still, even this version of you must have noticed, we don't live in Victorian times and neither do the characters in Star Trek. "Proper lady behavior" just adds insult to injury in these unpleasant times. The onus is ALWAYS on the woman. We can't win. I'm really hoping that in the future my granddaughters don't have to deal with this shit. (But it's not looking good.)

 

[Sci]

Still, even this version of you must have noticed, we don't live in Victorian times and neither do the characters in Star Trek. "Proper lady behavior" just adds insult to injury in these unpleasant times. The onus is ALWAYS on the woman. We can't win. I'm really hoping that in the future my granddaughters don't have to deal with this shit. (But it's not looking good.)

Someone is always trying to shame women for their sexuality, no matter what. Even in this thread, people go from shaming her for not wanting or pursuing a romantic relationship with Dever and for wanting but refusing to pursue a romantic relationship with Spock.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Someone is always trying to shame women for their sexuality, no matter what.

I've been married for over two years now and I spent a portion of the first year reinforcing the idea that there is nothing immoral about having or liking sex. She actually wanted to be in touch with her sexual side, but culturally she's grown up in a culture that regards a proactive woman as a slut.

These days she's great, but society can be absolutely awful.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd rather society get over it's juvenile humor about sex. Just talk about it like adults. It's not funny or humorous or shameful. It can be a good thing or bad thing depending on the relationship. Star Trek does a lot of things well but relationships is rarely something I find enjoyable. If I want to talk sex it sure as he'll won't be because of Star Trek.

 

[Sci]

I'd rather society get over it's juvenile humor about sex. Just talk about it like adults. It's not funny or humorous or shameful. It can be a good thing or bad thing depending on the relationship. Star Trek does a lot of things well but relationships is rarely something I find enjoyable. If I want to talk sex it sure as he'll won't be because of Star Trek.

Modern ST does relationships decently most of the time. About the only pre-2017 ST that did relationships decently was DS9, and that was still hit and miss sometimes.

 

[fireproof78]

Modern ST does relationships decently most of the time. About the only pre-2017 ST that did relationships decently was DS9, and that was still hit and miss sometimes.

Doing it better than past Trek does not make it good. At least for me. But, I'll leave that aside. I hope people find value in it. It's just not for me, and that's probably the best I can say right now.