Size of the K'Tinga-class

[CuttingEdge100]

What I'm wondering is if the D-7 was considered rivalable to the standard Constitution, and there were only 12 Constitution Class ships built... how come the Klingon's didn't beat the living shit out of the Federation?

They had *loads* of D-7's it would seem... way more than 12...


CuttingEdge100

 

[Cary L. Brown]

What I'm wondering is if the D-7 was considered rivalable to the standard Constitution, and there were only 12 Constitution Class ships built... how come the Klingon's didn't beat the living shit out of the Federation?

They had *loads* of D-7's it would seem... way more than 12...


CuttingEdge100

There's no indication that there were only 12 starships... or even 12 heavy cruisers. Hell, there's no real evidence that there were only 12 Constitution-class heavy cruisers.

All we know for certain is that there were only 12 "like her in the fleet."

In my own personal interpretation of that, there were 12 Constitution-class heavy cruisers which were refit into "long range explorers" and sent off on a much-publicized "5-year mission" to expand the Federation's sphere of influence. These ships were the first to get "replicator" technology, and the resultant space-savings permitted what was previously a heavy patrol combatant design into a hybrid design, incorporating both the functions of heavy patrol combatant and science vessel.

Remember, we shouldn't necessarily interpret too far beyond what's seen or hear on-screen... all we know is that there were, at the time Kirk said it, "only twelve like her in the fleet." There were undoubtedly many others in the fleet which were NOT "like her."

 

[Unicron]

Some of the offscreen sources would certainly suggest that there were quite a number of Constitution based cruisers built after the initial batch of 12. That's always seemed logical to me, with the design remaining in service on the front lines for many decades before being superseded by more modern classes.

 

[Wingsley]

...or it could be that "twelve like it in the fleet" meant that the United Earth Space Probe Agency was responsible for sponsoring twelve Federation starships-of-the-line, the Enterprise among them. This would allow for a much larger Federation Starfleet, including an unspecified number of Constitution-class cruisers.

 

[Longinus]

Bah. I always liked the idea that Connies were special super-ships of their era, much like Galaxies later were. Twelve is fine.

 

[Wingsley]

The only problem I see with that is during the TOS run, Enterprise encounters at least three Constitution-class ships either structurally destroyed or otherwise with the entire crew dead/lost. (Constellation, Exeter and Defiant) And this doesn't even touch what happened to the Excalibur. With those kinds of losses, such a small pool of cruisers would mean the Federation's fleet would be in a state of perpetually dire crisis. TOS shows us no evidence of that. To the contrary, it seems that the Federation has been sending out starships for years that fail to report/return to home port. (The U.S.S. Valiant, the Archon, the Horizon...)

 

[Cary L. Brown]

The only problem I see with that is during the TOS run, Enterprise encounters at least three Constitution-class ships either structurally destroyed or otherwise with the entire crew dead/lost. (Constellation, Exeter and Defiant) And this doesn't even touch what happened to the Excalibur. With those kinds of losses, such a small pool of cruisers would mean the Federation's fleet would be in a state of perpetually dire crisis. TOS shows us no evidence of that. To the contrary, it seems that the Federation has been sending out starships for years that fail to report/return to home port. (The U.S.S. Valiant, the Archon, the Horizon...)

And again... all we know is that there were twelve ships "like the Enterprise." We don't know that there are only 12 Constitution-class ships... that's not what the line was. And we certainly don't know that there aren't literally hundreds of other classes of ship in service.

The thing, for me, that made these twelve "special" is the "explorer refit" thing. Under Pike, and initially under Kirk, the Enterprise was a "standard configuration" Constitution-class starship. Some of the other Constitution-class ships were still in that configuration (with ~200 crew) during the run of TOS. However, there were twelve that got transformed into "explorers" and got sent on the "5 year mission."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The only problem I see with that is during the TOS run, Enterprise encounters at least three Constitution-class ships either structurally destroyed or otherwise with the entire crew dead/lost. (Constellation, Exeter and Defiant) And this doesn't even touch what happened to the Excalibur. With those kinds of losses, such a small pool of cruisers would mean the Federation's fleet would be in a state of perpetually dire crisis. TOS shows us no evidence of that. To the contrary, it seems that the Federation has been sending out starships for years that fail to report/return to home port. (The U.S.S. Valiant, the Archon, the Horizon...)

And again... all we know is that there were twelve ships "like the Enterprise." We don't know that there are only 12 Constitution-class ships... that's not what the line was. And we certainly don't know that there aren't literally hundreds of other classes of ship in service.

The thing, for me, that made these twelve "special" is the "explorer refit" thing. Under Pike, and initially under Kirk, the Enterprise was a "standard configuration" Constitution-class starship. Some of the other Constitution-class ships were still in that configuration (with ~200 crew) during the run of TOS. However, there were twelve that got transformed into "explorers" and got sent on the "5 year mission."

Score another point for the STXI continuity: instead of refitting heavy cruisers into long-range explorers, Starfleet kept the cruisers assigned to their original duties and built a new class of long range explorers from scratch.

 

[Longinus]

The only problem I see with that is during the TOS run, Enterprise encounters at least three Constitution-class ships either structurally destroyed or otherwise with the entire crew dead/lost. (Constellation, Exeter and Defiant) And this doesn't even touch what happened to the Excalibur. With those kinds of losses, such a small pool of cruisers would mean the Federation's fleet would be in a state of perpetually dire crisis. TOS shows us no evidence of that. To the contrary, it seems that the Federation has been sending out starships for years that fail to report/return to home port. (The U.S.S. Valiant, the Archon, the Horizon...)

And again... all we know is that there were twelve ships "like the Enterprise." We don't know that there are only 12 Constitution-class ships... that's not what the line was. And we certainly don't know that there aren't literally hundreds of other classes of ship in service.

Hundreds of other classes? How insanely huge you assume Starfleet to be? My impression of the TOS era is that there might be maybe hundred other ships! Whit fleet of that size, twelve Connies is quite reasonable.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

The only problem I see with that is during the TOS run, Enterprise encounters at least three Constitution-class ships either structurally destroyed or otherwise with the entire crew dead/lost. (Constellation, Exeter and Defiant) And this doesn't even touch what happened to the Excalibur. With those kinds of losses, such a small pool of cruisers would mean the Federation's fleet would be in a state of perpetually dire crisis. TOS shows us no evidence of that. To the contrary, it seems that the Federation has been sending out starships for years that fail to report/return to home port. (The U.S.S. Valiant, the Archon, the Horizon...)

And again... all we know is that there were twelve ships "like the Enterprise." We don't know that there are only 12 Constitution-class ships... that's not what the line was. And we certainly don't know that there aren't literally hundreds of other classes of ship in service.

Hundreds of other classes? How insanely huge you assume Starfleet to be? My impression of the TOS era is that there might be maybe hundred other ships! Whit fleet of that size, twelve Connies is quite reasonable.

No matter how fast a ship may be, there are limitations on what can be done by any single ship at any given moment, aren't there?

I think you're failing to grasp just how big... just how very, very BIG... space really is.

You really need to reign in the attitude there. There's not a damned thing "insane" about assuming that there may be tens of thousands of spacecraft of various types operating within the Federation at the time of TOS. We're talking about "A thousand planets and spreading out," remember. If you assumed a single "system patrol ship" for every planet as minimal security, you'd still have over a thousand ships in the fleet.

How many cargo-carriers do you think might be in service to support "a thousand planets and spreading out?" How many tender-classes? Scout classes? Science-vessel classes? Courier classes? Passenger vessel classes?

How many different NAVAL VESSEL CONFIGURATIONS do we have, right now, today, here on Planet Earth?

How much bigger is a galactic "Federation?" How many more people... how many more tasks to be performed?

I'm absolutely comfortable with the idea that there are certainly hundreds, and quite probably THOUSANDS, of other classes of ships out there, in the same "thousand planets and spreading out" Federation as the NCC-1701 is operating around.

I, in fact, think it's "insane" to assume that there would be only a dozen heavy patrol combatants, and only a few hundred total ships, in the service of such an entity.

 

[Longinus]

There obviously isn't a patrol ship for each world. How often is Enterprise the only ship around when the emergency occurs? Even if that emergency would happen near Earth? If there were ships patrolling each remote world, certainly there would be a small fleet to protect Earth. But there isn't, as the starships are precious and rare. Also, I wouldn't count cargo ships and such as part of the Star Fleet, they are more likely to be civilian operated.

That being said, the evidence about the actual size of Federation is rather hazy, even contradictory.

 

[Wingsley]

I don't know about the notion of there being numerous classes of Federation starships-of-the-line, or exactly how many Federation member-worlds actually sponsor at least one starship in Starfleet, but Captain Kirk's brag in the turbolift to Captain Christopher in "Tommorow is Yesterday" is certainly vague enough to allow ample wiggle room there for a TOS-era fleet wherein UESPA sponsors at least 13 starships-of-the-line, or maybe giving a nod to Cary's notion that there are Constitution-class vessels fitted differently and the Enterprise is part of an elite subset of most-heavily-equipped Connies for deep space duty (allowing for a larger body of lesser- or differently-equipped Connies) would make logical sense.

Let's not overlook the possibility that the Federation could have member species that are not oxygen-breathers, and if they sponsor starships fitted with life support systems geared for their habitats, they would not be included in Kirk's "twelve like it" brag.

 

[DestinyCaptain]

Guys, this discussion is fascinating. I would like to interject a thing or two. Because of the missteps of certain individuals in Trek management, we have the obviously more advanced Klingon technology of the K'Tinga popping up well before it should have in the time line of ENT. You also have the pre-KBOP in that era. Both these designs came well after the desgin of the D-7 in reality. In the Trek universe, or the Prime Universe as we now get to call it, we have instances where these clealry more advanced designs exist before TOS. So, what does that mean to this discussion? I have suggested for a long time that the only solutions to this blatant error was to say that all Klingon ship technology that looks like the K'Tinga and KBOP is actually the technology of the HurQ. DS9 says that the HurQ tried to concuer the Klingons a long time ago. Okay, the Klingon society has always seemed trapped in the middle ages to me. I find it hard to believe they'd ever have gotten their crap together and clawed their way into space on their own. So, so if the HurQ came in during what would have been the Klingon middle ages, this might be the reason that part of their society has never really changed. When the Klingons defeat the HurQ, they might have done so with their own technology. This would leave them with ships and weapons from a technologically superior people. Because the Klingons are not terribly great innovators, they keep using the HurQ designs over and over until such time as they come into contact with TOSera Federation technology. The Klingons are very effective imitatiors, this why the D-7 that we know from TOS looks like Federation tech because the Klingons have aquired the technology and tried to apply it to their own ships. After some point they move away from using the TOS hydrid designs. So, in this example the D-7 comes after the K'Tinga. Yes, I know this is not how those of us that are nearly 40 and so on have come to know Klingon design as presented in Trek. But it does attempt to address the inconsistancies given us by rushed production schedules and lazy descision making by Paramount brass.

 

[Longinus]

...or we could treat occasional blatant errors as we would in any other movie: ignore them. The lone K'tinga in enterprise is like the wristwatch in Spartacus. No reason to built convoluted theories about secret clockwork technology* of ancient Romans to explain such things. And the Bird of Prey in ST:E is clearly a different and more primitive design, so no error there.

*) Though it wouldn't be that far fetched: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

 

[DestinyCaptain]

There should not be a pre-KBOP in ENT. The KBOP first appeared in SFS. This was due to the fact that the producers decided to go with Klingons instead of Romulans because of the relative cost of making new uniforms and so on. They already had a dozen or so Klingon uniforms from TMP, and they had a set they could quickly and cheaply convert into the KBOP bridge. According to Okuda this was a set left over from some aborted production not related to Trek. In 1984, we fans theroized that the KBOP was a result from the brief Klingon/ Romulan alliance from the days of TOS. Prior to SFS, the term "bird of prey" was only attached to Romulan ships. Ironically, the fact that in the "Enterprise Incident" they used D-7's for the Romulans was a production choice due to the fact that RBOP model had disappeared. It was easier to use D-7 models and footage. Thus, they introduced the line about there being an alliance. The pre-KBOP was clearly influenced by the KBOP from SFS. All the Klingon ships in ENT look like they should exist along side the newer, in 1979 and 1984, more advanced ships of TMP and SFS. There was a decidely poor effort to create anything that looked primitve or at least less as advanced as anything we had seen design wise since the modern era of Trek began with TMP. Anywho.....

 

[DestinyCaptain]

Oh and the Antikytheria Clock is dang sweet. But it like so many other examples like the Greek and Chineese anchient weapons as just real world examples of how much we have and will continue to forget as we move foreward through time.

 

[T'Girl]

The 214 metre sizing could work if consider what the klingon ships don't do. They're not explorers or frieght/cargo carriers, the D7's and K'tinga's are basically over-sized fighters. From what we've seen of the interiors on the shows and movies they're very cramped, perhaps because that's the way the klingon culture wants them to be. Strip the Enterprise of much of her "fluff" and she'd be what? half of her size.

 

[Longinus]

It was theorised that the cloak in Klingon ships was result of an alliance or trade with Romulans. There is no reason to assume that small scout ships resembling BoP did not exist prior that. There is nothing particularly Romulan about the design. (And is the ship in Enterprise even called Bird of Prey? Can't remember.) Not that ST:E wouldn't have butchered continuity left and right, but the Klingon ships certainly were better designs in that show, and some effort was made to fit them in the lineage. (Unlike with that totally TNGish, cloaking Romulan BoP *shudder*)

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I have suggested for a long time that the only solutions to this blatant error was to say that all Klingon ship technology that looks like the K'Tinga and KBOP is actually the technology of the HurQ. DS9 says that the HurQ tried to concuer the Klingons a long time ago. Okay, the Klingon society has always seemed trapped in the middle ages to me. I find it hard to believe they'd ever have gotten their crap together and clawed their way into space on their own. So, so if the HurQ came in during what would have been the Klingon middle ages, this might be the reason that part of their society has never really changed. When the Klingons defeat the HurQ, they might have done so with their own technology. This would leave them with ships and weapons from a technologically superior people.

That's really not at all unreasonable... nor was it an idea which the DS9 folks originated, for that matter. The idea that the Klingons were a conquered people who rose up and overthrew their oppressors and moved out, using captured technology, has been around in "fan-lit" since the 1970s.

A great parallel to this take on the Klingons is found in B5, with the Narn. Except in this case, the Narn took Centauri technology and the Centauri are still around... whereas in Trek, as far as we can tell, the Hurq were completely annihilated (or permanently driven off) by the Klingons.

Babylon 5 didn't invent that idea... rather, it took an idea that Trek had pretty much dropped, and implemented it in a subtly different way (just as so much of the rest of B5's details also borrowed from "failed" Trek concepts... and later, Trek picked them back up again!)

I have no problem with the basics of Klingon technology being Hurq-based, and even some of the ship hull designs for that matter. By the time of TMP, the Klingons are just starting to deviate from this model, and by the time of TNG, the Klingons are finally starting to do their own thing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And again... all we know is that there were twelve ships "like the Enterprise." We don't know that there are only 12 Constitution-class ships... that's not what the line was. And we certainly don't know that there aren't literally hundreds of other classes of ship in service.

Hundreds of other classes? How insanely huge you assume Starfleet to be? My impression of the TOS era is that there might be maybe hundred other ships! Whit fleet of that size, twelve Connies is quite reasonable.

No matter how fast a ship may be, there are limitations on what can be done by any single ship at any given moment, aren't there?

I think you're failing to grasp just how big... just how very, very BIG... space really is.

Space is big, sure. The Federation, not so much. Even if you assume "a thousand planets and spreading out," the ratio of ships to planets is probably similar to, say, the ratio of fighter planes to to cities and towns in the European Union. Theoretically, you could live in a Federation colony your entire life and never see a Starfleet vessel.

How many cargo-carriers do you think might be in service to support "a thousand planets and spreading out?"

Plenty. Hence the reason the Earth Cargo Service and the Merchant Marine are probably enormous. But Starfleet... again, their primary mission is deep space exploration with a defensive application built into it. They don't really need to patrol Federation space, just problem areas and colonial zones far out beyond the frontier.

Anyway, a dozen Constitution class cruisers seems about right to me, especially if Starfleet has four or five other light and medium cruisers in service (Kelvin's class may be one of them) each with a dozen or so in their line. Heavier exploration vessels like the Nu-Ent would be more rare, but spend more time in deep space that they are rarely seen even by other starships.

And of course, scouts and frigates are a dime a dozen.