Size of the K'Tinga-class

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by David Schmidt, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, if the K'tinga uses physical casings for photon torpedoes, a bigger ship would have bigger magazines. If not--if it uses plasma torpedoes or some kind of giant disruptor weapon that fires "fireball" type discharges--then the small size makes sense in the same that an A-10 Warthog with its bigass nose gun doesn't need to be as large as a B-52.
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Even with physical casings I figure a trawler like on a 18 wheeler could hold one hundred torps with handling gear, the 214 metre ship could carry three or four trawler size "torpedo packs" pretty easy.
     
  3. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I figure not. Modern naval vessels (which pack em in pretty tight) have a total load of around 200 projectiles (of ALL TYPES). This is only possible in configurations where about half of those projectiles are non-serviceable (and these are relatively small projectiles. The Klingon torpedo launcher is about the size of a garage door, so I would expect them to launch photon torpedoes the size of SUVs.

    Naturally, you can always use old Earth vessels as rules of thumb. The German Type-VII U-boat--which packed in crew and supplies in a manner even Klingons would find barbaric--only had a complement of two dozen torpedoes.
     
  4. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Twelve. "There are only twelve like it." Not twelve OTHERS. Twelve in existance. Total. Only twelve.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    English is ambiguous in that respect, though. Thirteen is a completely acceptable interpretation, especially since Kirk says there are twelve in the Fleet and his own ship is presently stranded away from said Fleet. But "at least 13" is not a defensible position. "At least 12, at most 13 ships like Kirk's" is. "At least 12 like Kirk's, perhaps dozens upon dozens of other kinds" is also defensible.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Twelve like the Enterprise, including the Enterprise.
    At the time he said it. Possibley more later.
    Since no other types are ever mentioned, we're free to speculate about what else is in the fleet, and how many.
    But there were only twelve like the Enterprise, including the Enterprise, at that moment.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or thirteen; impossible to tell.

    In the 1960s? I seriously doubt that...

    And almost certainly more before. After all, in TOS it was considered pretty normal for a ship per season to be lost; and Kirk's ship was supposed to have decades of history on her. So probably a dozen ships of the type had already been lost in the preceding years, although it may well be that no more than a dozen were in existence at any given time, and Starfleet just built casualty replacements apace with the losses.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    At that time there were twelve Constitution class ships in the fleet. Later some were lost, and presumably new were built, so we do not have clear indication of how many were ever built in total. But at that moment, there was twelve.
     
  9. SonicRanger

    SonicRanger Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have to agree with Timo that 13 is also an acceptable interpretation due to the ambiguity of the sentence. I also like the interpretation that "like her" could refer only to those Connies that received an upgrade like the Enterprise did after "The Cage." And since we saw Connies lost at a rate of one or two a year and if the Enterprise is already 20 years old in TOS, there could've been dozens of Connies originally built.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Twelve or thirteen ships like Kirk's; not necessarily all of them Constitution class. Or perhaps just 12-13 of the dozens upon dozens of Constitution class ships were like Kirk's, while others were different. It would depend on knowing what Kirk meant by "like it".

    Perhaps just a dozen were under UESPA command; or just a dozen were dedicated to deep space exploration; or just a dozen had the all-important CSNDR 3/F fleetwide datalink and the PB-32 long range warp engines installed. Or then the entire Starfleet consisted of 12 ships like Kirk's. We can't tell by the evidence alone.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He obviously meant that there were twelve painted light grey. However, there were 246 Constitution-class vessels in total, but they were painted in different colours, mauve being most numerous, with as much as 88 pale purple Constitution-class vessels in service.
     
  12. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    No, in the 2260s.
     
  13. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    And, isn't the 12/13 thing the single most pedantic topic to argue in all of Trekdom? :lol:
     
  14. Kirok_Blue

    Kirok_Blue Ensign Red Shirt

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    Maybe he meant 12 stuck in the past, like "her" -lol
     
  15. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, we all know that the line was supposed to have been "There are only a dozen like her in the fleet... and that's a 'Baker's Dozen'!"
     
  16. Wingsley

    Wingsley Commodore Commodore

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    Pedantic? No, I don't see it that way. Controversial, definitely.

    The only way I could see Kirk's "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" brag to Capt. Christopher of "there are only twelve like it in the fleet" meaning that the entire United Federation of Planets had only 12-13 Constitution-class starcruisers as of the mid-2260's would be if an older, pre-Constitution-class fleet of starcruisers had already been in service in the 2260's for a considerable period of time, and the "new" Connies were being built as the very first of "the next wave" while the older starcruisers, still in flight, are either slated to be decommissioned or to be rebuilt/recycled to the new Connie spec. For sake of argument, let's call this previous class of starscruiser the Magna Carta-class. (I believe Warped9 is coming up with some ideas on what my "Maggie" idea might look like, although I would personally prefer something a little closer in appearance to a "Cage" Connie.) Taking cues from Matt Decker's Constellation, let's assume the Magna Carta-class starships were very structurally similar to the up-and-coming Connies, but maybe not as refined. Maybe the last spec for the Maggies gave them a sustainable top speed of Warp 7 for 24 hours, whereas the Pike's Connie could sustain Warp 7 for 72 hours and Kirk's revised Connie could sustain Warp 8 for 24 hours; again, for sake of argument. (I'm suggesting that Pike's Enterprise was a fairly new vessel when the ship visited Talos IV; whether Capt. April's command of the ship was to simply launch her or for a shakedown cruise before handing her over to Pike remains unclear.)

    In this scenario, there could be 100 or more Maggies in flight during the 2260's, but only 12-13 Connies as of the "time" of Kirk's pronouncement/brag. This would mean that there would be 112 or more heavy starcruisers in the Federation's service, but that when you consider Kirk's point-of-view, he being in command of one of the relatively few Warp 8-capable heavy starcruisers at that moment in time, and in contrast to a much larger fleet of Warp 7-capable Maggies (presumably Decker's Constellation undergoing refit at that "time") Kirk could still brag "there are only twelve like it in the fleet".

    So if the Klingons had 30 or 50 or 100 or even more D-7s in service in the 2260's, Starfleet's starcruiser fleet would not be at a serious disadvantage. It would be a little like an arms race, but more like a speed and technology competition.

    How would that square with these differing "world" views?
     
  17. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I understand that it is part of the trekkie nature to come up with convoluted and overly complex explanation for each and every error and discrepancy. However, there is no error here. Twelve ships. Twelve Constitution-class ships in the fleet. "Twelve like her in the fleet." Not twelve others, twelve in total. Of course you can come up with all sorts of explanations for why Kirk would not be talking about Constitution-class ships (Most obvious reading), but why would you? There is no problem whatsoever with the Federation having only twelve Connies at the time. It fits to other established facts just fine.
     
  18. Wingsley

    Wingsley Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Please do not put words in my mouth... or on my keyboard...

    Kirk was obviously bragging, and I was putting forth a way to show how there could be only 12 or 13 Connies, but not just 12 or 13 starships in the entire fleet, period... As for how many "Maggies" could be in service, who knows? There is nothing in TOS that either endorses or refutes the notion of Federation starships other than the Connies, and the "factual" presence of 1371 Republic and 1017 Constellation certainly suggests a Starfleet legacy of earlier, pre-Connie starship classes. I'm not suggesting the other notions posted here, just not ruling out the possibility that other classes could exist. (After all, the Reliant had to evolve from somehwere.)
     
  19. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there would have been no other classes of ships in the fleet. After all, If the whole fleet in it's entirety is composed of twelve Constitution-class vessels, the Kirk's sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

    As for refitting older models into Connies, I have never been fan of this idea. It seems like a rather far fetched theory to explain few non-linear registry numbers.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not in this thread, thankfully - but it has been an oft-used argument regarding that line.

    It still makes perfect semantic sense, just like the "12+1" interpretation does. "There are only 12 in the fleet" can be the same as "the fleet consists of just 12", and indeed one might say that this is the very impression Kirk wants to convey by stressing the word "only" in a context where the man from the barbaric past says it must have been an effort to build a starship like this...

    Of course, the rest of TOS can easily be quoted to refute the idea of a 12-ship fleet, or even a 12-starship fleet. But "Tomorrow is Yesterday" alone can serve as a basis for the 12-ship fleet argument, to the great annoyance of many.

    Timo Saloniemi