Sisko is a murderer

[Anwar]

1. Her actions in Equinox.
2. Her actions in Tuvix.
3. Her specifically blowing off the Doctor in Year of Hell.

Pick any or all of the above.

Note that I'm not saying -I- see Janeway as evil, though I don't agree with some of her actions either.

I don't think those actions were evil; all right necessary evil perhaps, but I agreed with her every time. Sometimes, you gotta roll the hard six.

Well, one person's necessary evil is another person's murder/terrorism...that's sort of what this thread's all about.

Besides, it's no different than moments in TOS where Spock or McCoy would try to relieve Kirk of duty only for him to BS his way out of it (or just tell them to piss off). Why is she so harshly treated?

 

[Jono]

I don't think those actions were evil; all right necessary evil perhaps, but I agreed with her every time. Sometimes, you gotta roll the hard six.

Well, one person's necessary evil is another person's murder/terrorism...that's sort of what this thread's all about.

Besides, it's no different than moments in TOS where Spock or McCoy would try to relieve Kirk of duty only for him to BS his way out of it (or just tell them to piss off). Why is she so harshly treated?

 

[Matt4511]

thirdly, i think you are taking the word alone out of context. granted its been a while since i have seen the episode but what i took from the meaning was that he wanted ALL federation ships to attack the cardie ships alone (meaning not attacking the dominion ships).

I rather doubt that. We only saw the fighters attacking, no matter what the camera angle. The dialogue never suggested that any other assets took part, either.

I'd also argue that it was an important ingredient in Sisko's plan that those fighters be vulnerable and that many of them die. The Cardassians wouldn't have taken the bait unless they were supremely confident that they could bite the bait's head off with one swift move. Sisko had to bribe them with the deaths of his pilots to get this effect; we heard the Cardassians indicate that they saw through Sisko's plot easily enough, but they took the bait nevertheless because it was such a fat and soft one.

That's classic naval tactics, really. It has always been useful to have expendable assets to harass the enemy, and entire doctrines and shipbuilding programs have been based on the idea that there would be ship types whose principal function was to die hopelessly outmatched by the enemy.

It's murder all right, in the sense of being premeditated killing. Not in the sense of being premeditated illegal killing, though, as every general (and even a lowly colonel/captain like Sisko) has the legal mandate. And it saves lives elsewhere - more important lives, lives aboard one's capital ships, and perhaps ultimately civilian lives that would otherwise be lost if the enemy carried the day.

Timo Saloniemi

Indeed and to see a Starfleet captain doing it, willing to sacrifice peoples lives like that simply to try and make a hole for bigger ships just doesn't sit right with me one bit.
Starfleet and The Federation is supposed to be different, more evolved. I'd expect such tactics possibly from Klingons but Starfleet? hell no.

I bet you that Sisko felt soooo silly when he realized that he'd left Starbase 375, dragging the whole fleet along with him, and darn it! He'd forgotten to load the Magical Painless Victory That Requires No Morally And Emotionally Difficult Choices torpedoes!

 

[Evil Ezri]

Has anyone ever question why a brand new Starfleet Captain in the smallest starship has the authority to tell what the fleet should do.

 

[Anwar]

Because he's Admiral Ross' assistant, and has been dealing with the Dominion longer than anyone else.

 

[Jono]

Because he's Admiral Ross' assistant, and has been dealing with the Dominion longer than anyone else.

Add to that Sisko had been in command of DS9 for 5 years before he had inside knowledge about some of the weaknesses of DS9, similar in the way Dukat was able to hasten the evacuation of DS9 when he ordered a specific targeting of a section of DS9 to damage the shields or whatever he did.

Also only around half the force was launched initially, there is a possibility that the commander of the fleet was meant to come from the forces that didn't make it. Martok might have been in command or someone from the Ninth Fleet and since they aren't there Ross puts Sisko in command.

 

[SoM]

The fact is a lot of people die on Star Trek but because all we ever see is a cool explosion in space we don't really think about too much. Remember the scene where Q has Picard listen to all the people he has killed over the years? Picard is incredulous, but Q says these are all the people who were killed because of an action Picard did or didn't commit. Seemed like a large group.

"Or didn't commit" is an incredibly wide area though - are we just talking "didn't trip up the murderer as he was running right in front of him with a cop shouting to stop him"-level sins of omission, or do we extend it to stuff like "ordered course mark 134 rather than 135 on a routine survey mission and ultimately ended up just too far away to answer a distress call in time as a result"?

 

[Nightdiamond]

It can be argued that his strategy had merit and even worked- at least a little.

Those Cardassian ships had to stand still and watch as their neighboring ships with their friends on it get pummeled or even destroyed.

That had to have some effect on them.

For some time too. By the time the Federation fleet charged through, they were probably emotionally drained.

They didn't even seem to notice the Galaxy ships outflanking them the way they did. They were too busy firing wildly into the ships passing through the hole they made.

This thread started me to watching that sequence again, and it looks like those fighters were vicious against those Cardassian ships.

Not to mention softening them up in order for the rest of the fleet to push through.

To be fair to Sisko, he was willing to make the same sacrifice - inside the wormhole he was going to try to destroy as many ships as possible, knowing it was certain suicide.


If those extra fleets had made it on time, the forces may have been even, and then strategy might have changed- or ironically, they may have used the same strategy and even use Birds of Prey too and it may have worked even better...

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Sisko is morally wrong for being complicit in Vreenak's murder, and the way he pursued Eddington and poisoned those planets. And what does Ira Steven Behr do? He makes Sisko into a god.

Personally, people may talk about Janeway being evil, but I see Sisko as worse.

Sisko was a Prophet and was thus non-linear (though he had "forgotten" this) and was thus always a god. And, if you study your mythology (including the Judeo-Christian, as much as its adherents will stick their fingers in their ears and yell "la la la la!" when evidence from their own text is presented), gods are, at best, amoral. So Sisko's ascension was entirely fitting.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I think the Democrats in Congress need to get this one. Put Sisko and Cheney..er uh...Ross up for war crimes trials and impeach...uh....dishonorable discharge.

What kind of leader sends his troops into a battle situation, he should be more in contact w/his inner puss.

"Sisko lied, Red Shirts died"
"No blood for space, no blood for space"

Genius post! A war for survival against a totalitarian and genocidal empire is entirely equivalent to a war fought to rack up profits for Halliburton and Blackwater.

 

[Jono]

Sisko is morally wrong for being complicit in Vreenak's murder, and the way he pursued Eddington and poisoned those planets. And what does Ira Steven Behr do? He makes Sisko into a god.

Personally, people may talk about Janeway being evil, but I see Sisko as worse.

Sisko was a Prophet and was thus non-linear (though he had "forgotten" this) and was thus always a god. And, if you study your mythology (including the Judeo-Christian, as much as its adherents will stick their fingers in their ears and yell "la la la la!" when evidence from their own text is presented), gods are, at best, amoral. So Sisko's ascension was entirely fitting.

There is no proof Sisko was anything but Human.

 

[Timo]

Has anyone ever question why a brand new Starfleet Captain in the smallest starship has the authority to tell what the fleet should do.

I'm not entirely buying the "he was an expert" argument. Experts could become advisors, leaving the leading to people who are trained to lead.

Since this is an annoying issue, let's investigate the possibility that Sisko wasn't in command...

In "Favor the Bold", Sisko formulates and presents a plan, whose approval depends on the decision of Ross, and of two Rear Admirals who appear to be fleet commanders with the final say on the use of the fleets that Sisko hopes will participate. At this stage, there's no indication that Sisko will be in overall command or anything. The closest thing to such an indication is when Sisko tells Nog to "alert all ships" that the Defiant is moving out. For all we know, every skipper in the formation did the same...

It's only in the final scene of the episode that Sisko issues commands that have fleetwide implications. He gives permission for individual ships to drop from formation, and then tells "all ships" to assume attack formation Delta 2. Commander or advisor? His calls could still be going through the fleet flagship where Ross would give them legitimacy...

In "Sacrifice of Angels", Sisko issues commands to "wings" and "units" of ships, as if he really were the king of the hill. But one would expect the fleet to need more instructions and commands than we hear. Perhaps Sisko is only leading part of the force as carefully preplanned? It's still odd that he gets that much power when Starfleet would have trained Admirals for the job.

Dunno. It's a valid concern, but perhaps we can squirm out of it because nobody really comes out loud with "Captain Sisko will command the entire operation" or anything like that. He's only ever credited with planning it in dialogue.

Timo Saloniemi