Berman is a TV hack, and like many TV producer hacks since his day, they think being "raw" or "gritty" = accolades and great, respect-wothy drama.
Obviously, that did not happen with the train wreck that was Nemesis.
Single worst scene in the first ten movies
- Thread starter Marsden
- Start date
Berman is a TV hack, and like many TV producer hacks since his day, they think being "raw" or "gritty" = accolades and great, respect-wothy drama.
Obviously, that did not happen with the train wreck that was Nemesis.
First Place-
Dune Buggy Chase in 'Nemesis'. A long, totally pointless scene spliced in from a different film. Contrived reason, completely ignores logic and established technology. From the detection of Positronic emissions as they fly past a star system (would have been nice to use that ability in past shows to find Data or Lore) to the use of a wheeled vehicle in an anti-grav culture plus a specially designed shuttle just to carry it around. Leaving B-4 around the landscape in pieces just to give them an excuse to drive around for a while and having Worf use a big but underpowered rear gun instead of just taking a Phaser out and holding down the trigger to sweep a beam across the chasing vehicles, every time I see this part I hit the fast forward button.
Runner Up-
Any Use of Rocket Boots in ST-V. Again, it is an anti-grav culture, they have been floating things around since the TOS days. When Spock first uses them it almost startles Kirk off his climb, then during the jail break he runs off to his cabin to get them so they can fly up the impossibly tall turbolift shaft.
Honorable Mentions-
Worf's Promotion on the Holodeck
Picard, Data and Worf singing "A British Tar"
Overused 'Enterprise is the ONLY ship within range' trope.
Dune Buggy Chase in 'Nemesis'. A long, totally pointless scene spliced in from a different film. Contrived reason, completely ignores logic and established technology. From the detection of Positronic emissions as they fly past a star system (would have been nice to use that ability in past shows to find Data or Lore) to the use of a wheeled vehicle in an anti-grav culture plus a specially designed shuttle just to carry it around. Leaving B-4 around the landscape in pieces just to give them an excuse to drive around for a while and having Worf use a big but underpowered rear gun instead of just taking a Phaser out and holding down the trigger to sweep a beam across the chasing vehicles, every time I see this part I hit the fast forward button.
Runner Up-
Any Use of Rocket Boots in ST-V. Again, it is an anti-grav culture, they have been floating things around since the TOS days. When Spock first uses them it almost startles Kirk off his climb, then during the jail break he runs off to his cabin to get them so they can fly up the impossibly tall turbolift shaft.
Honorable Mentions-
Worf's Promotion on the Holodeck
Picard, Data and Worf singing "A British Tar"
Overused 'Enterprise is the ONLY ship within range' trope.
Furthermore, why would ship's gravity even be active in a multi-deck shaft? You should be able to have artificial gravity only where you need it. Whether or not the shaft scene is the "worst," it is certainly the most idiotic in the first 10 movies, and that would be true even if there were no deck number irregularities/absurdities.
Jesus, I had plumb forgot about that scene. Apparently I hated it so bad that I had driven it out of my head!
For everything I've said in this thread, I'm going to have to agree with this one, for so many reasons.
One reason to hate it that sticks out for me is that it contributes to this steady trend in Hollywood/TV/video games that in order for a woman to be in the center of conflict, they have to get raped or be threatened by it, so that they have something to overcome and win the day. Trek doesn't need that to depict strong women. If Berman thinks it's "raw" or "gritty," then he fails to see that it's hardly unique.
Hell, even Lara Croft had this in the latest Tomb Raider game, when all her other previous games had none of that but still had those stories naturally be about her, a strong heroine.
Insurrection is chock full of cringeworthy scenes, but the entire space battle between the Enterprise and the Son'a battlecruisers is the worst.
- "The Riker Maneuver" that Geordi --in full ass-kissing for a promotion mode-- says that history will possibly record is essentially the Enterprise lighting its own farts. Really. Riker learned this "maneuver" after a drunken frat party at the Academy methinks. Besides, we know the real Riker Maneuver is the weird way Riker sits down by swinging his leg over the chair like a dog marking his territory.
- The "come hither" stare the Trill operations officer gives Riker when he gives his terrible Horatio Caine dialogue about ramming things down the Son'a's throats makes it come off like a bad double entendre.
- The manual steering column is a metaphorical representation of Riker steering the ship and destroying the enemy with his warrior penis. And who designed the thing to stand free in the middle of the bridge while you have to kneel down to handle it and look like you're taking a dump? Has no one heard of ergonomics in the 24th century? The knee and back stress from having to steer his manhood and support his massive ego must be enormous.
- Geordi makes a major tactical decision to eject the warp core on his own before being given the order. Now obviously he knew Riker was going to do it anyway, but you still don't make a decision like that before the captain gives the order, especially when the decision so significantly affects their power supply, propulsion, and their position relative to the explosion.
- They give a treatise on subspace weapons accords while being chased through space from the tear created by one. The bridge chatter during a crisis has always been a bit much, but is someone really going to question the legality of the weapons as they're being shot at by them? It seems rather a moot point at that stage. The whole purpose is to of course inform us in the audience that these are REALLY bad WMDs, but it wasn't really necessary and just made for more clunky expository dialogue in an already poorly written series of scenes.
- The effect of the Enterprise being slapped to the side by the warp core explosion was poorly done.
- "Time to use the Briar Patch like Br'er Rabbit did." What, locked in a vault for decades out of sheer embarrassment and never seen again? Yes, please. HBO Family seems to only own the rights to this one ST film, and runs it about 700 times a year. I'm afraid children are being indoctrinated to like substandard Trek through repetition.
- "The Riker Maneuver" that Geordi --in full ass-kissing for a promotion mode-- says that history will possibly record is essentially the Enterprise lighting its own farts. Really. Riker learned this "maneuver" after a drunken frat party at the Academy methinks. Besides, we know the real Riker Maneuver is the weird way Riker sits down by swinging his leg over the chair like a dog marking his territory.
- The "come hither" stare the Trill operations officer gives Riker when he gives his terrible Horatio Caine dialogue about ramming things down the Son'a's throats makes it come off like a bad double entendre.
- The manual steering column is a metaphorical representation of Riker steering the ship and destroying the enemy with his warrior penis. And who designed the thing to stand free in the middle of the bridge while you have to kneel down to handle it and look like you're taking a dump? Has no one heard of ergonomics in the 24th century? The knee and back stress from having to steer his manhood and support his massive ego must be enormous.
- Geordi makes a major tactical decision to eject the warp core on his own before being given the order. Now obviously he knew Riker was going to do it anyway, but you still don't make a decision like that before the captain gives the order, especially when the decision so significantly affects their power supply, propulsion, and their position relative to the explosion.
- They give a treatise on subspace weapons accords while being chased through space from the tear created by one. The bridge chatter during a crisis has always been a bit much, but is someone really going to question the legality of the weapons as they're being shot at by them? It seems rather a moot point at that stage. The whole purpose is to of course inform us in the audience that these are REALLY bad WMDs, but it wasn't really necessary and just made for more clunky expository dialogue in an already poorly written series of scenes.
- The effect of the Enterprise being slapped to the side by the warp core explosion was poorly done.
- "Time to use the Briar Patch like Br'er Rabbit did." What, locked in a vault for decades out of sheer embarrassment and never seen again? Yes, please. HBO Family seems to only own the rights to this one ST film, and runs it about 700 times a year. I'm afraid children are being indoctrinated to like substandard Trek through repetition.
The dune buggy scene is what happens when you let actors call the shots. Patrick Stewart likes cars and driving a lot in real life, he mentioned this several times I'm sure to Berman, don't know if Stewart ever actually asked for a car chase scene to be put in, but I'd bet he at least kind of passively suggested it.
And as Plinkett points out it's even more stupid when you realize that the shuttle that transported the dune buggy is actually more useful than the vehicle it was responsible for transporting. The shuttle can fly, it can hover, change direction more quickly ect. To have it land just to drop off a dune buggy to investigate would be like having a person injured on a mountain or something and the helicopter flies up and lands a couple of miles away to drop off a snowmobile to get the person and bring it back to the helicopter instead of just flying the damn thing to the site of the accident directly.
And as Plinkett points out it's even more stupid when you realize that the shuttle that transported the dune buggy is actually more useful than the vehicle it was responsible for transporting. The shuttle can fly, it can hover, change direction more quickly ect. To have it land just to drop off a dune buggy to investigate would be like having a person injured on a mountain or something and the helicopter flies up and lands a couple of miles away to drop off a snowmobile to get the person and bring it back to the helicopter instead of just flying the damn thing to the site of the accident directly.
I would have liked to see the pitch to Sirtis. "So Marina, in your last big scene, in something that has taken up close to 15 years of your life and will define you until the day you die, we're going to have you be the victim of a TRIPLE mind rape, one being your husband, one the main villian and the other a hideous looking creature....whadda you think. I think this has "Oscar" written all over it!!!!!"
Personally based on her interviews at the time I don't Sirtis really gave a shit anymore and just wanted to be done with the whole damn thing. They probably could have thrown a cow in as a fourth participant in the scene and she would have been like "Fine, whatever. Just give me my paycheck"
Actually...Troi's last "big scene" is being finally allowed to use her psionic powers to uncover Shinzon's cloaked ship and so take revenge on both the men who violated her.
Otherwise I agree, subjecting your characters to rape for drama is just cheap.
Which at the end of the movie I asked myself... Why wait until that moment after your Romulan allies are all disabled and most of the Enterprise's weapons have been depleted? It's like in Avatar when Eywa only shows up to help AFTER the Navi forces have all been decimated.
It wouldn't have been cheap if Troi hadn't already been subjected to it multiple times throughout the TV run.
Yeah but none of those times was a TRIPLE mind rape. They were pushing new frontiers with that idea.
It is pretty stupid. Would been like if we had the A-bomb already developed the day Pearl Harbor was attacked and we waited 4 years to drop it on Japan.
I get the feeling that that she (and others like LeVar and Gates) started to feel that way midway through the production. But in most movies, you still have at least a couple months of filming left by that point, so it's likely that by the time the movie came out, she had just about given up.
I suppose that's a downside to acting in movies -- you can start to see the damage when it begins to germinate, and you're powerless to do anything about it. At least in a TV show, you can try your best to correct it in the next episode, and the time crunch doesn't really allow for much room to really dwell on it.
I disagree, rape, especially if psychological the aftermath of it isn't shown always strikes me as a cheap way to try to make the audience sympathize with the character/try to show their actions as "justified revenge".
Whenever Troi got violated in the series (three-four times irrc, depending on how far you stretch that definition) they never show it as having any long term effects on her psyche, she always snaps right back. Compare that to Picard who was also basically raped by the Borg and who got multiple "fallout" episodes in "Family", "I,Borg" and "First Contact"
I really can't blame them when they'd been part of an ensemble show for 7 years and then were basically reduced to supporting players for 4 movies of "The thrilling and sometimes wacky adventures of Picard and Data".
I remember reading how TNG was going to be more equitable that TOS in character importance. In TOS is was obviously Kirk, Spock and McCoy that got the good stuff, Scotty had some moments when engineering was involved or he took command of the Enterprise and the other three were just told to sit there and we'll give you an occasional scene or two once in a while.
Naturally TNG developed somewhat of a heirarchy too with Picard and Data at the top, Riker and Worf the next notch down and the other three in the rear. But even so ALL the characters had episodes centered around them (even the lame ass Geordi ones) and even when the episode was Picard or Data centered the others usually had decent roles and good screen time. Hell there were episodes where Picard was barely even seen at all.
Then the films started and it was clear it was Picard and Data first and foremost and the others were FAR behind in importance.
I've heard the excuse "Well you can't realistic give 7 people important parts in a film." Bullshit. There was a film called, ironically enough, "The Magnificant Seven, Yul Brenner and Steve McQueen were obviously the stars, but the other 5 got a good amount of screen time and played vital roles. In the Empire Strikes Back you had Luke, Han, Leia, Vader, Chewbacca, R2D2, C-3PO, Lando and Yoda ALL get a lot of screen time and have lines and play roles, some were more important sure, but all had their moments. Hell they even managed to fit Obi-Wan and Boba Fett in for short but important parts. Sure Chewie is just growling and R2 beeping, but they were still on camera a lot and interacting with other characters.
Look at the Best of Both Worlds. Picard obviously was the centerpiece. But Riker got command of the Enterprise, Data went on both trips to the Borg cube and was the link to Locutus, Worf went on both trips to the cube, tried to grab Locutus and had some other lines, Crusher got to go on the first rescue attempt and kill some Borg and be there as they tried to crack into Locutus, Troi got to snap Riker back when he wanted to go on the mission and told him his place was on the bridge now that he was captain, Geordi did his engineering stuff and participated in the main deflector dish idea....On top of which Shelby played big role, Wesley got decent time and even Guinan had a couple of key scenes. So that's 9 characters and TBOBW was only 90 minutes long. A full length could add another 30-45 minutes.
Generations was obviously going to be Picard's show meeting Kirk and Data got to fulfill his lifelong dream of acting like a childish idiot. But the rest did nothing really. Riker got the Enterprise blown out from under his ass, Crusher got pushed into a lake in had a bitch fit, Geordi got tortured, Worf got a brief scene about plasma coils, Troi crashed the saucer
So you figure maybe the first movie they had to feature the top two to get it launched and they'll open it up now....Nope First Contact Picard goes all psycho on the Borg and meets the queen, Data gets his scenes with the Borg queen and saves the day. Worf gets a little action with his "assimilate this" scene, but the rest of the movie he and the others are either in gun fights or screwing around with Cochrane on earth. Hell that AA actress and that Hawk guy had more lines than some of the regular cast.
Insurrection I can't remember much about other than Data goes nuts again. Picard gets a girl and has a fistfight with the guy from Amadeus against a blue screen they apparently forgot to put anything on. And the rest just sit around doing marginal stuff.
Nemesis Picard gets to meet his clone, Data gets to meet his clonec and have a big dune buggy chase. They have all the fight scenes on the Scimitar and the climax involves them. Riker gets in a lame fistfight with a Reman, Troi gets mind raped, Worf does nothing except fire the dune buggy's rear gun, Geordi does nothing, Crusher does nothing.
It must have been disheartening to feel like you were a big part of something great for years and then when it moved to another format you were basically told......nah we really only need 2 of you to carry the plot in all 4 films, seven is too many. Especially when other films show conclusively it's not.
Yes.
How was it "triple"? It happened once (excluding the deleted scene), and only Shinzon and the Viceroy were involved.
To me, the single worst scene in the first ten movies was the restored spacewalk scene in the extended edition of TMP, with the clearly unfinished Enterprise hull behind Kirk. Even I would never have let that scene fly in that state.
Quoted and bolded for frakking TRUTH!
Also, there was at least one occasion in TOS when they could not use the transporter. When Sulu and a landing party were trapped on a planet, freezing almost to death.
And in TFF the transporters were down when everyone was on leave. Had to send shuttles.
And in Nemesis, they could not use transporters at Kolaran IV.
Also probably screams lack of budget.
I remember a friend of mine at the time saying that he'd heard in an interview that Generations was not going to use any stock footage. All original effects.
When the movie released, he still did not believe me.
I went to the trouble of hooking up two tv's and two vcrs so that I could A/B the following examples to him:
1. The Bird of Prey doing a high banking maneuver and cloaking out. In Generations, that was when the Bird of Prey was escaping from the Enterprise D with Soran and LaForge. It was only clipped to avoid showing Khitomer in the background.
2. The Bird of Prey exploding.
3. The Enterprise B at warp was just a reuse of the Excelsior at warp from Trek VI.
My friend damn near wanted to start a fight with me when I proved him wrong. Wow. Some friend, huh?
It was triple because if you watch the scene they had her mind so screwed up that she couldn't even distinguish Riker from the other two.
And so what if it was "only" a double mind rape and she got to get them back in the end. Are you really defending this scene as being something that added to the film and wasn't pretty disturbing and unnecessary. Especially because as one poster pointed out the while mind rape thing had already been done at least a couple of times on TNG.
Please tell me I'm reading your post wrong and you're not actually trying to justify including this kind of crap in what they knew was probably going to be the last run for the TNG cast.
You're reading it right: I don't think a fictional mind rape (a mental invasion, not an actual rape) is a big deal, as it serves the story by showing how evil the villain is, and the heroine gets pay-back in the end.
As far as "disturbing and unnecessary" goes, how is it worse that the much larger number of people who have actually been killed in all the ST films?
As far as "disturbing and unnecessary" goes, how is it worse that the much larger number of people who have actually been killed in all the ST films?
