Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please!

[DigificWriter]

If all you were trying to do was 'get the word out' about the petition's existence, the title of this thread wouldn't be 'Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please'.

Even if it wasn't your intent, the way you chose to broach this subject - a petition for the 'Bring Back Janeway' cause - was very confrontational, especially given how volatile previous instances where this topic has been broached have been.

So.. let me just get this in my head...

Because I was polite, and added the world "please" to the title .. you want to twist that action into some sort of conspiracy where it's confrontational?

Do you really even believe in the hooey that you're trying to sell me?

It was a simple courtesy, adding a 'please' to the title rather than just a statement or a demand.

You make me laugh really. You're so determined to degrade me and everyone else who supports returning Janeway in the books by any means possible, you have even stooped to making that absurd accusation.

Really. You're proving my point for me better than anything else I could have said myself!

As I said earlier in both this thread and the duplicate one in Trek Lit, you can't beg or ask people to support your cause.

The appropriate and non-confrontational way to have made this petition's existence known would have been something like the following:

Myself and other members of the Voyager fandom who wish to see the character of Kathryn Janeway returned to the post-finale Voyager fiction have begun an online petition hoping to convince the individuals responsible for publishing those novels to bring her back.

If you are interested in signing this petition, you can do so here [insert link to the petition].

Edited to note that your original post in this particular version of this topic thread was much less confrontational than the one you posted in Trek Lit. However, you did come across as rather confrontatinal in said duplicate thread, and, as noted, included in your OP in said duplicate thread several false ideas as to the motivations behind the actions/decisions taken in terms of Kathryn Janeway's character and the Voyager Relaunch novels.

 

[Blacglac]

I'm not one of those people who thinks that she absolutely has to be involved in Voyager stories in order for those stories to actually qualify AS Voyager stories, or for those stories to be of any worth.

In previous instances where this topic has been broached here, I - and others who disagree with the sentiment expressed by you, Syx, Brit, Lynx, and others - have been attacked for not being in 'lockstep' with said sentiment, and, as I said to Syx in the edit to my previous post, the manner in which the subject was broached this time around was very confrontational, even if it wasn't intended to be.

Now, even though I edited the comment you quoted out of my last post, I nevertheless stand by the idea that everything you said is BS because it is not supported by the ways in which you and/or others have broached this subject in the past, nor is it supported by the way in which Syx broached the subject this time around.

If you don't want to be responded to with confrontation, don't come in here behaving in a confrontational fashion, intentionally or otherwise, particularly as it concerns this particular issue/topic.

I came into this thread in the first place because of the duplicate thread that was posted in the Trek Lit forum, and only initially posted in this iteration of it in response to what I saw as blatant examples of the condescension and arrogance that has been previously demonstrated by individuals who champion the 'Bring Back Janeway' cause towards individuals who do not think said cause is actually something that needs to be championed.

I posted here trying to bring some sort of end to this debate. Not to say one set of people are right and another set are wrong. We're all entitled to our own opinion. I personally don't agree with some people adamant in this cause because they haven't read the books at all. You can't complain about something you've never read.
Just because you don't agree with our decision to try and bring Janeway back, does not give you carte-blanche to try and tell us that we're wrong. If you don't agree, don't read. It's a simple request, and one that I find keeps stress levels down for everyone involved.

 

[Syn.Sixx]

If all you were trying to do was 'get the word out' about the petition's existence, the title of this thread wouldn't be 'Sign in the new petition for Bring Back Janeway, please'.

Even if it wasn't your intent, the way you chose to broach this subject - a petition for the 'Bring Back Janeway' cause - was very confrontational, especially given how volatile previous instances where this topic has been broached have been.

So.. let me just get this in my head...

Because I was polite, and added the world "please" to the title .. you want to twist that action into some sort of conspiracy where it's confrontational?

Do you really even believe in the hooey that you're trying to sell me?

It was a simple courtesy, adding a 'please' to the title rather than just a statement or a demand.

You make me laugh really. You're so determined to degrade me and everyone else who supports returning Janeway in the books by any means possible, you have even stooped to making that absurd accusation.

Really. You're proving my point for me better than anything else I could have said myself!

As I said earlier in both this thread and the duplicate one in Trek Lit, you can't beg or ask people to support your cause.

The appropriate and non-confrontational way to have made this petition's existence known would have been something like the following:

Myself and other members of the Voyager fandom who wish to see the character of Kathryn Janeway returned to the post-finale Voyager fiction have begun an online petition hoping to convince the individuals responsible for publishing those novels to bring her back.

If you are interested in signing this petition, you can do so here [insert link to the petition].

You just don't stop do you? LOL!

I did ask for people to sign. I even added a courteous "please"

You really are so off base on this attempt at degradation that I have no words to really express how ludicrous your attempt to somehow make me in the wrong for how I chose to word the subject truly is.

The only person being confrontational between the two of us at least, as you put it in this entire little back and forth round is you my friend. I simply will not sit back and let you twist my words out of proper context. I have said, over and over, that we / I know others don't like Janeway. And that's okay. All we're trying to do is reach out to others who do feel the same as we ..

I have been far more respectful, and shown you considerably more courtesy than you have shown to me.

Even in bringing up the other topic, placed in the TrekLit area as it does relate to the Trek Books..

The title was/is "Bring Back Kathryn Janeway to the Voyager book! Online Petition!"

There's a limit to how much text you place in the subject, and while I didn't place "please" in there as I'd changed the title slightly, its original content has nothing that is confrontational or rude. Again, the only one here who continues to be confrontational and rude is you. You're trying to twist my words, and the words of others out of their context in order to degrade our view point. Plain and simple.

 

[DigificWriter]

Three things:
1) You can't ask/beg people to support your cause. Note that nowhere in my example did I blatantly ask people for their support.

2) Your OP in that Trek Lit thread was full of blatantly false accusations/assumptions leveled against the current and past editors of Trek Lit. That is confrontational, as are the accusations that you and several others have leveled against me in this version of your thread thus far (see below for one such example), and that were leveled against me the last time this subject was broached.

3) FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME, I AM A KATHRYN JANEWAY FAN, and am tired of being accused of not being so simply because I happen to disagree with the sentiment that you and others express that she should not have been 'killed off' or otherwise removed from the post-finale Voyager Relaunch fiction, or that the decision to 'kill' her off should somehow be reversed. Accusations that I 'don't like Janeway' or that I'm somehow 'not a true Voyager fan' because I'm not in 'lockstep' with your guys' opinion(s) are confrontational; they are designed to provoke confrontation because they are categorically not true.

 

[Biffette]

And Kirsten Beyer's VOY novels are selling extremely well. More people reading VOY fiction than when the TV series was airing, it would seem.

This is an interesting point, but I am having trouble believing it. Do you have a source with which to back this up?

 

[Syn.Sixx]

Three things:
1) You can't ask/beg people to support your cause. Note that nowhere in my example did I blatantly ask people for their support.

2) Your OP in that Trek Lit thread was full of blatantly false accusations/assumptions leveled against the current and past editors of Trek Lit. That is confrontational, as are the accusations that you and several others have leveled against me in this version of your thread thus far (see below for one such example), and that were leveled against me the last time this subject was broached.

3) FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME, I AM A KATHRYN JANEWAY FAN, and am tired of being accused of not being so simply because I happen to disagree with the sentiment that you and others express that she should not have been 'killed off' or otherwise removed from the post-finale Voyager Relaunch fiction, or that the decision to 'kill' her off should somehow be reversed. Accusations that I 'don't like Janeway' or that I'm somehow 'not a true Voyager fan' because I'm not in 'lockstep' with your guys' opinion(s) are confrontational; they are designed to provoke confrontation because they are categorically not true.

In response:

1. Actually, yes I can ask people to help support the BBKJ movement. How else do we gain awareness of it? Your continued statements to the contrary are absurd and of no value whatsoever. I asked for people who agree, to sign. Just because you want to try and somehow pervert a simple action into something it was not .. does not make it so.

2. I have not been in any way as confrontational in this thread, nor the other thread. In fact, quite the contrary.
As is clear, I stated it there too.. that other view point is fine. We're just trying to reach those who might feel as we do. You can try to twist what I say all you like, but my words are there and you're wrong. you don't have to agree with me. I don't care if you liked her, loved her, hated her, didn't care enough about her to have an emotion either way! Over and over, in almost every post .. I've said I know some don't agree that's not the issue.


My remarks concerning you were based on your words, and your actions in trying to twist what I've said out of context. You have tried to take a polite request and make it into a confrontational statement which it was not. Nor were the original posts in any way as rude as you continue to be. I may have gotten some details inaccurate, but the information came to me from others and I was unable to find anything to confirm or contradict it and so I went with it. I am allowed to state my opinion, that is not confrontational either. Where as your continued hostile and pointless contributions trying to degrade our group are outright laughable, and only do us more good in fact as you're coming across as quite amusing and making sure that this thread stays very active.

Thank you for that by the way.

3. You certainly seem to like to jump to conclusions. You keep accusing me (and others I presume) of not accepting the viewpoint of those who don't want Janeway to return. I've posted over and over, that other viewpoint is quite all right and I have no problems with those who feel that way. I do have the right to express my hopes to see Janeway returned, and I have done so with far more respect than you have given to those who don't agree with your point of view in that you don't think she should return. Nor have I ever said that you are not a true Voyager fan because you don't agree with me.

It is you who shows no respect for our feelings, for our opinions, or for our hopes.

I will admit on the other thread, I was using a different computer and I multi-posted rather than using the multi-quote feature in error. As I said there and apologized for my error, I was working on some insurance related documents, had the window minimized with the Word document over it and I made a mistake. That was not confrontation or hostility, just a mistake and I apologized for it.

If you don't like this topic, then stop reading it.

I, and everyone else who does support the BBKJ movement, have just as much right to post here and discuss our hopes as you. No one is forcing you to read our posts, no one is forcing you to be part of the discussion. Go do something else.

 

[RoJoHen]

Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.

Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.

 

[Sindatur]

Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.

Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.

OH...NOW, you're just being confrontational by acting all all neutral and stuff

 

[Syn.Sixx]

Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.

Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.

OH...NOW, you're just being confrontational by acting all all neutral and stuff

LOL

Sindatur, just wanted to say I love your avatar.. Owls are awesome.

 

[Sindatur]

Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.

OH...NOW, you're just being confrontational by acting all all neutral and stuff

LOL

Sindatur, just wanted to say I love your avatar.. Owls are awesome.

Thank you, it took me a lot of years to obtain the perfect Avatar to represent my Character Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard

 

[RoJoHen]

Why don't you start a petition to keep her dead and see how many votes you get.

Because I don't care one way or another. If she's dead, she's dead. If they want to bring her back, let them bring her back. It's not my place to dictate where the story goes.

OH...NOW, you're just being confrontational by acting all all neutral and stuff

I want it my way or no way at all!

 

[Therin of Andor]

This is an interesting point, but I am having trouble believing it. Do you have a source with which to back this up?

We were told this numerous times when the previous editors posted over at TrekLit; that all of the VOY Relaunch novels have gone through multiple reprintings, meaning that demand kept exceeding predictions, even though the parent show had left the air. Not so the numbered novels.

Pocket doesn't release figures to the public, and neither do most publishers. IIRC, again from posts by the previous editors when discussing the astounding success of the DS9 and VOY Relaunches, many of the older, numbered VOY novels only ever had the one printing (marked inside the books in reprints). When Pocket was publishing a TOS and a TNG book month, and a VOY and a DS9 the alternate month, making approx 24 books per year, the VOY and DS9 books were said to be under-performing expectations.

 

[Mage]

Why are you people still at it? :Cardie:

This is going to happen, you can bet on it.

No, it's not. Not because you say 'we want it'. Give it a rest already, and move on. Janeway's not a real person, and it's been 4 years now. So please, just move on.

 

[Capt.Jaysee]

This is not about who sells more or who is a better character in people's eyes. To Pocket books it is about these things, but not to the readers. If you buy books based on popularity, then you miss out on some of the most remarkable literature out there.

I buy books based on substance, on character and most of all on text that makes me feel. Love, compassion, fear, anger and so on. The depth of Janeway's character is so consuming, especially for trek fans. She's "cut from a different cloth" which scares the heck out of most, who can only see past their own nose.

It is not my job to make you feel comfortable with hating Janeway, neither is it my intention to say you must like her. I just want her back and there is nothing wrong with trying to make that happen.

 

[Biffette]

We were told this numerous times when the previous editors posted over at TrekLit; that all of the VOY Relaunch novels have gone through multiple reprintings, meaning that demand kept exceeding predictions, even though the parent show had left the air. Not so the numbered novels.

Pocket doesn't release figures to the public, and neither do most publishers. IIRC, again from posts by the previous editors when discussing the astounding success of the DS9 and VOY Relaunches, many of the older, numbered VOY novels only ever had the one printing (marked inside the books in reprints). When Pocket was publishing a TOS and a TNG book month, and a VOY and a DS9 the alternate month, making approx 24 books per year, the VOY and DS9 books were said to be under-performing expectations.

Thanks for the info. Can we be sure that print runs for the numbered novels were the same size as print runs for the Beyer relaunch?

 

[Lynx]

Lynx:

1) VOYAGER WAS AN ENSEMBLE SHOW, as are/were all of the other Star Trek series. It wasn't based solely around Janeway, nor should it have been.

2) To date, the only major characters from the television series who are not part of the Voyager Relaunch novels are Janeway and Tuvok. Everyone else is still there, so this idea that 'more people would buy the novels if they were about the actual crew of Voyager' is a rather ludicrous one, because the novels ARE ABOUT THE ACTUAL CREW OF VOYAGER (sans two).

3) Janeway was effectively removed from playing an active role in the Voyager Relaunch by Christie Golden in Homecoming, The Further Shore, and the Spirit Walk duology; Kirsten Beyer included her in part of Full Circle because she needed to use that novel to build up to Janeway's eventual 'death' as seen in Before Dishonor, even though she wasn't going to rehash said 'death' within the pages of Full Circle itself, but Janeway was, at best, a periphery character throughout the entirety of her particpation in the storylines utilized and presented in FC, so, if you're mad about Janeway 'not being part of the novels', you really ought to be ranting and raving against Christie Golden as well as Kirsten Beyer (although I personally think that this whole mindset of being pissed off about Janeway being A) not part of the Voyager novels and B) 'dead' is stupid).

4) Janeway was replaced as Voyager's Captain by Chakotay, not some 'weak female copycat', but you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the novels because they dont adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be. I should also note that Chakotay replacing Janeway as Voyager's Captain was done by Christie Golden in the Spirit Walk duology, and set up in Homecoming and The Further Shore.

5) As Kirsten Beyer has already said, Asfarah Eden replaced Chakotay as Voyager's Captain, and she is far from being a 'weak female copycat' of Janeway, but, again, you apparently wouldn't know that since you've chosen to boycott the Voyager novels because they don't adhere to your viewpoint of what Voyager is, was, and should be.

6) Presuming that you and those who share your views re: Janeway and Voyager represent a large or 'majority' portion of the Voyager fandom is the height of arrogance and, quite frankly, extremely insulting to me personally. As I noted in the version of this thread that was posted in Trek Lit, I consider myself to be a fan of Kathryn Janeway's character. My being supportive of the decisions made re: Janeway's character and what Kirsten Beyer has done in relation to said decisions IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM MAKES ME 'LESS' OF A FAN OF VOYAGER THAN YOU AND THE OTHERS WHO SHARE YOUR VIEWPOINTS RE: JANEWAY AND HER INCLUSION - OR THE LACK THEREOF - IN THE VOYAGER RELAUNCH NOVELS.

1) Voyager was supposed to be an ensemble show and you're right about that it wasn't just about Janeway. but that's no reason for ditching the character.

2) Kes and Neelix are also missing.

3) I supopse that you're referring to herb promotion to admiral and the continuating scenario in Golden's books. But that's no excuse either for annihilating the character. They could have demoted her or made her the same kind of admiral as Kirk was in the movies. She could still have been in command of Voyager. If Janeway was shoved aside in Golden's books, all that could have been changed without killing off the character.

4,5) Chakotay was replaced by Eden, right? And why? To have a new female captain? Reil weird that they dump the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen just to replace her with another female captain. And no other female captain can replace Janeway when it comes to skill and all that. Whatever they throw in will be a weak copy.

6) I wasn't pointing at you in my previous statement even if it does surprise me that you state that you are a fan of Janeway, still you find it great that she's been killed off. What I was pointing at were all those people who didn't care for Voyager earlier on, all of a sudden showing up, praising the current direction of the books and express their happiness over Janeway being dumped.

And yes, Voyager (or more precisely, the "official" Voyager) has lost many ardent fans during the years due to stupid decisions of those in charge of the TV series and later on the books. First the way Kes was treated, then C/7 and now the annihilation of Janeway from the books. Most of those people are still Voyager fans but they don't want anything to do with the current direction of the relaunch.

Therin of Andor wrote:

Maybe they weren't. But they are now, and will probably go buy a few boxed sets of DVDs to see what they missed. Win/win for CBS. New fans are needed once all the older fans have bought everything they need.

Be careful what you wish for. I agree that new fans are needed. But if those in charge of the relaunch are trying to win new fans by annihilating characters from the TV-series, thus alienating the old fans, then they might end up in the same situation as certain rock bands who have abandoned their old style and become trendy in order to attract new fans. The result is ofthen that they first lose their longtime fans and then the new fans too who just see them as some trend of the week before they move on to new stuff.

As for new fans, let's say that some young person discover Voyager due to some re-runs on some SF-channel, then buys the books only to find that important people from the TV series are killed off or missing. Would that person continue to buy the books? No, I don't think so. I mean, I discovered my current favorite series NCIS in 2003. Would I buy books where, let's say Gibbs was missing and had been replaced by some other character? No, I don't think so.

 

[Defcon]

1) Voyager was supposed to be an ensemble show and you're right about that it wasn't just about Janeway. but that's no reason for ditching the character.

But it kind of lessens the argument that Voyager without Janeway isn't Voyager.

2) Kes and Neelix are also missing.

Once again it's showing that you shouldn't comment about books you haven't read: Neelix isn't missing.

4,5) Chakotay was replaced by Eden, right? And why? To have a new female captain? Reil weird that they dump the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen just to replace her with another female captain. And no other female captain can replace Janeway when it comes to skill and all that. Whatever they throw in will be a weak copy.

If you're talking about female TV captains, don't you think it's kind of a hollow praise when you say Janeway was the best female captain Star Trek has ever seen, as she was the only female captain on TV with a regular role and therefore the onyl one with the chance to really leave a lasting impression with the viewers? (And if you're including TrekLit captains I can think of a few female captains I would say are better in my opinion, including the "weak copy".)

And another "you shouldn't comment on books you haven't read" moments: Chakotay is captain of the Voyager again, Eden is now the fleet commander.

As for new fans, let's say that some young person discover Voyager due to some re-runs on some SF-channel, then buys the books only to find that important people from the TV series are killed off or missing. Would that person continue to buy the books? No, I don't think so.

I could see this person continuing reading/buying the series if the book in question was well written. If all they want to read about is Janeway they probably are out of luck, but if that's the case I would argue that they weren't fans of the series as a whole anyway, and probably more a fan of Kate Mulgrew, so they probably should rather follow her acting career beyond Voyager than reading books about a show that for them was obviously little more than a vehicle for Mulgrew.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I don't think you get it. It's not about Kate Mulgrew. It's about Kathryn Janeway as the captain of Voyager.

It's about watching a show and starting to like it because of the characters and the chemistry between them. It's about wanting to read about the same characters when the series is over. Not to see a favorite character or the favorite character being killed off and replaced by a character who simply can't replace the old favorite.

It's about emotions, it's about liking certain characters in a certain series.

And I must say that I do find it a bit insulting to suggest that the Janeway fans should abandon Voyager and concentrate on Mulgrew's current career. I wouldn't have been particularily happy if someone had told be to watch "American History X" every day when Kes was dumped fom Voyager (not that I don't like that movie, it's great).

As for your comment about Neelix, what I know he's only making a "guest appearance" in the book. Not to mention that Janeway, Kes and Tuvok are still missing.

No, I haven't read any TrekLit book with female captains other than those who show up occasionally in a story. So far I haven't seen anyone who I would like to see in charge of Voyager instead of Janeway.

 

[Relayer1]

Kes and Tuvok are still missing.

Kes is missing, but she was written out in the show as being superfluous.

Tuvok is not missing - he is in the Titan books and still tedious...

 

[RoJoHen]

Kes and Tuvok are still missing.

Kes is missing, but she was written out in the show as bering superfuous.

Yeah, you can't get upset about Kes being gone from the novels. She was written out of the show in Season 4, and in "Fury" she decides to go home to Ocampa. She has no real business being in the novels unless Voyager decides to go all the way back to where it started. Plus, at this point, she's probably died of old age.