Sign here if you liked 8472

[ChaosAngel]

I liked them right up until Janeway neuterd them with her "meaningful descusion" tactic. Species 8472 would have made for a great Alien story. Infesting the ship and making year of hell look like a blue monday.
What strikes me as odd is that the vadwar only feature in one ep. With those corridors they had, you'd think Voyager would run into them more often than they did the Kazon and Seska.

 

[Kegg]

What, you think the Borg would be dumb enough to make a weapon that would be just as effective in killing Borg as it would the 8472? Especially when they considered seeding the entire DQ with it? The nanos would work only on the 8472, leaving VOY wide-open to endless Borg attacks.

So VOY tech the tech the weapon to make it also good against Borg. They've got Seven and her wunderbar nanoprobes and the unorthodox antics of Torres and Doctor, work with it.

They developed that weapon with Borg technology and aid, not wholly on their own. Them being able to shield themselves from Borg detection would just be seen as the epitome of deus ex machina.

Granted, but so is the weapon.

And again, it leaves too much unresolved. If they don't get rid of either the Borg or the 8472, then the audience is left with the "But those two guys are still out there rebuilding for the next attack".

That's sort of the idea. And having two hostile aliens at war could be a backdrop of the premise rather than a plot point needing to be resolved in a given episode.

Double Standard.

Uh, what?

I said because I accepted it on Farscape I'd be fine with it on Voyager also. Isn't that the antithesis of a double standard?

Plus Moya had the Wormhole aliens and those Priest aliens that made the Peacekeepers backing them up.

That didn't amount to much. In the end, actually, that basically just amounted to a way for them to get the weapon and a moral imperative about what to do about it. Voyager already has number 2; and it could feasibly get number 1; so it doesn't need any higher powers in this instance.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg could easily adapt to a weapon derived from their own nanoprobes, and there is no way for VOY to compete with the Collective in an Arms War. And even if they didn't adapt to it, the Borg and 8472 have more than enough numbers to just take out VOY with two or so ships. At least in Farscape all they had to worry about was ONE PK vessel out to get them even if it was a Mothership type.

When I said it would leave too much unresolved, I meant by the conclusion of that story in the show (Hell, Farscape itself only got 2 real seasons out of the Wormhole thing. It didn't really start up until S3) would leave too much unresolved for the audience's taste. If they ended the show with the 8472 and the Borg at a truce/ceasefire, the audience would be left thinking "But they haven't resolved anything, they're both out there ready to keep fighting" and feel cheated they didn't end the story. It would've been like if DS9 ended with the Dominion not signing a peace treaty but just agreeing to a temporary ceasefire.

And the only way this story can end is either with a weakened Collective assimilating the 8472 and becoming invincible, dooming the Trekverse, or with the weakened 8472 becoming the new Galactic threat with still enough numbers to easily hunt down and destroy VOY.

Considering that the audience was PO'ed enough over the damage VOY did to the Borg in the show as is and kept saying "One ship can't so this much", like when THEY used THEIR superweapons on the Borg in the finale, it would go over the same here with the nanoweapon WMD and the Borg/8472s trashing each other to a standstill.

And also, in Farscape they at least got their WMD from an acknowledged higher power instead of augmenting something they stole from the Peacekeepers or Scarrans.

 

[Kegg]

When I said it would leave too much unresolved, I meant by the conclusion of that story in the show (Hell, Farscape itself only got 2 real seasons out of the Wormhole thing. It didn't really start up until S3)

I'd say not. The arc started in S1, and by the start of S3 we'd already seen a whole evolution of the arc - much of S3 was about undoing the conclusion of S2, in fact.

Considering that the audience was PO'ed enough over the damage VOY did to the Borg in the show as is and kept saying "One ship can't so this much", like when THEY used THEIR superweapons on the Borg in the finale, it would go over the same here with the nanoweapon WMD and the Borg/8472s trashing each other to a standstill.

Not quite. It'd be the precise reverse, if I may return to my Yojimbo comparison: That the 8472 and Borg are so busy trashing each other it'd make sense for Voyager to be able to survive, rather than a single zero sum game where Voyager stands alone against the Borg and still wins.

The particulars of that are less material. Voyager has a superweapon or it doesn't; that superweapon can be based on the Borg nanoprobe or whatever (go the whole Farscape hog if nothing else will satisfy you, have Voyager nab it from super-advanced aliens).

The logical story progression, then, is either Voyager is a major player in the 8472-Borg conflict, which is the superweapon story, or it's mostly trying to stay the hell out of the way of the conflict, which is a story without the superweapon (and in which case Voyager is a priority for neither party).

And the only way this story can end is either with a weakened Collective assimilating the 8472 and becoming invincible, dooming the Trekverse, or with the weakened 8472 becoming the new Galactic threat with still enough numbers to easily hunt down and destroy VOY.

Come now, that's not the case. They can also totally eliminate each other, as you yourself observed, or, as I postulated, a peace born of necessity comes about. Facing Mutually Assured Destruction was enough to stop the United States and the Soviet Union from nuking the crap out of each other, and should the same situation arise with the 8472 and Borg, same result.

 

[Anwar]

I'd say not. The arc started in S1, and by the start of S3 we'd already seen a whole evolution of the arc - much of S3 was about undoing the conclusion of S2, in fact.

It started at the very end of S1, S2 was more to do with the Neural Clone thing, and we didn't even learn about the greater significance of the wormhole weapon until S3. S3 and S4 were the ones to focus on just why wormholes were so important, then it all ended with Peacekeeper Wars. They got 2 seasons and a miniseries out of the wormhole weapon concept. At the very end of S1 and all of S2 we didn't even know why wormholes were so important.

Not quite. It'd be the precise reverse, if I may return to my Yojimbo comparison: That the 8472 and Borg are so busy trashing each other it'd make sense for Voyager to be able to survive, rather than a single zero sum game where Voyager stands alone against the Borg and still wins.

It would be worse if the Borg and 8472 kept fighting, because then they'd not only have to evade the Borg but deal with 8472 swarming the place and attacking everyone else as well. And while entire worlds burned, VOY would always survive. The audience is supposed to buy that?

The particulars of that are less material. Voyager has a superweapon or it doesn't; that superweapon can be based on the Borg nanoprobe or whatever (go the whole Farscape hog if nothing else will satisfy you, have Voyager nab it from super-advanced aliens).

Having them nab it from super-aliens would raise the question as to how the heck they could do that, and would still be derided as Deus ex Machina. If it has the superweapon then it's still worse because now they'll have to deal with BOTh of these unstoppable races ACTIVELY hunting them instead of the random encounters we saw in the show. Not just single ship encounters, but now entire fleets actively gunning for them. The audience would hate that even more than VOY taking on single Borg ships and winning.

The logical story progression, then, is either Voyager is a major player in the 8472-Borg conflict

And be dead in 10 seconds.

or it's mostly trying to stay the hell out of the way of the conflict, which is a story without the superweapon (and in which case Voyager is a priority for neither party).

In which case the Trekverse is doomed since whoever wins the war will either come out of it as invincible or gunning for VOY.

Come now, that's not the case.

Yeah, it is.

They can also totally eliminate each other, as you yourself observed,

The audience would just be PO'ed that VOY did it that way instead of involving the entire Federation in some grand war. As in, they went to the trouble of bringing in the Borg and making this new race of killer aliens, then did nothing but make them fight each other until they were both dead as a plot device so VOY wouldn't end up dead (which they should be, regardless).

or, as I postulated, a peace born of necessity comes about. Facing Mutually Assured Destruction was enough to stop the United States and the Soviet Union from nuking the crap out of each other, and should the same situation arise with the 8472 and Borg, same result.

And if you do that, the show ends with the audience feeling cheated that both of these extremely dangerous races are out there rebuilding for more war, and the show didn't bother giving a true conclusion. It's like ending DS9 with no peace treaty, but the Dominion just biding their time for the next assault when they've rebuilt enough.

 

[Kegg]

It started at the very end of S1, S2 was more to do with the Neural Clone thing,

Which was pivotal to the wormhole thing, actually, but that's not the point. Scorpius had an objective in S2 and at the end, mission accomplished. Crichton set to undo the events of S3. The arc's more prominent in S3, but it's still there in S2 - and it's there to an extent I wouldn't expect the arc we're hypothetically discussing to be there on VOY (VOY is still predominantly an episodic series, after all).

It would be worse if the Borg and 8472 kept fighting, because then they'd not only have to evade the Borg but deal with 8472 swarming the place and attacking everyone else as well.

Exactly. But 8472 would be mostly attacking the Borg, not the rest of the universe just yet (priorities, and you don't want the Borg to create an anti-8472 coalition, do we?)

Having them nab it from super-aliens would raise the question as to how the heck they could do that,

I literally meant more or less the same deal. They stumble upon some alien tech and start a-using it.

The audience would hate that even more than VOY taking on single Borg ships and winning.

No, because it's more viable. To win Voyager needs to play the Borg off 8472; setting two hostile powers to emphasize their own mutual hostility is more buyable then one gigantic unstoppable hostile power and a single resisting ship.

In which case the Trekverse is doomed since whoever wins the war will either come out of it as invincible or gunning for VOY.[.quote]

Wars really need not work that way. Take World War I, the epic showdown between Britain and Germany. Britain won, but it also lost, as that war did shake the foundation of the empire (and certainly didn't leave them a hell of a lot stronger than before).

It's like ending DS9 with no peace treaty, but the Dominion just biding their time for the next assault when they've rebuilt enough.

It'd be like ending DS9 without destroying the Dominion. Which is what happened.

 

[Anwar]

Exactly. But 8472 would be mostly attacking the Borg, not the rest of the universe just yet (priorities, and you don't want the Borg to create an anti-8472 coalition, do we?)

And VOY would either have to deal with squadrons of Borg vessels actively out to assimilate them AND squadrons of 8472 ships out to destroy them. Not just the occasional single vessel. Or, if you take away the superweapon then they have to deal with the crossfire of Borg and 8472 ships blasting away, which would still leave them with improbable survival.

I literally meant more or less the same deal. They stumble upon some alien tech and start a-using it.

And still get derided for the Deus ex Machina.

No, because it's more viable. To win Voyager needs to play the Borg off 8472; setting two hostile powers to emphasize their own mutual hostility is more buyable then one gigantic unstoppable hostile power and a single resisting ship.

And in either scenario, their survival is still more improbable than anything that happened in the show proper: We're expected to believe they'd survive Borg and 8472 ships actively hunting them, or that they'd survive the crossfire of the war while the rest of the DQ burns.

Wars really need not work that way. Take World War I, the epic showdown between Britain and Germany. Britain won, but it also lost, as that war did shake the foundation of the empire (and certainly didn't leave them a hell of a lot stronger than before).

The Borg and 8472 don't wage war like we do. The Borg can easily rebuild from their losses, and when they win they don't conquer and subjugate their enemies they assimilate them and any advantages they have. Thus their victory over the 8472 would have them gain all the remaining 8472 and their ships to recoup their losses, and gain all their incredible powers in the process. They'd come out stronger than ever.

If the 8472 win, well they still have enough numbers to easily hunt down and destroy VOY and then begin annihilating the rest of the Trekverse. They're too dangerous to just leave around. And if they end the series with VOY getting back to Earth and giving them the data on the nano-weapon, the audience is still left hanging on the ultimate resolution to these new enemies. Meanwhile, VOY abandoned the rest of the DQ to be the 8472's next targets.

It'd be like ending DS9 without destroying the Dominion. Which is what happened.

No, the Dominion weren't some unstoppable single-mind juggernaut. They were individuals who would sign agreements and abide by them, and plus they weren't so far above the Feds in terms of power like the Borg and 8472 are to everyone else. Plus we had Odo to change their minds over the whole thing (and they admitted they care more about him than anyone else. So they did win in their own way).

A ceasefire between beings like the Borg and 8472 is too nebulous. Unless there is a finality to the series' end, the audience is left thinking "Great, they'll just start fighting again after they rebuild and whoever wins will rule the Galaxy". The best choice is to remove one of them entirely from the Trekverse in a way that doesn't give the other any advantage, meaning their best choice was to just have the 8472 leave our universe without there ever having been a Borg war.

 

[Kegg]

And in either scenario, their survival is still more improbable than anything that happened in the show proper: We're expected to believe they'd survive Borg and 8472 ships actively hunting them, or that they'd survive the crossfire of the war while the rest of the DQ burns.

Actually, the latter scenario is considerably more plausible. In the series proper, the Borg are a monolithic and expansive agency. There's nothing to stop them from attacking VOY whenever they chose and they don't have any real opposition. If they're fighting 8472, they do have a real opposition and there is a reason VOY isn't swatted like a fly beyond the weak BS about the especial interest the Queen has in Seven. A single, monolithic and unstoppable force is not really something it's plausible you can resist.

The superweapon solution goes the route of making VOY basically a threat to either party, so it'd again make sense why VOY isn't just destroyed - they're able to destroy right back. There's more internal logic, I think, then the stuff we eventually got, though naturally you don't.

The Borg and 8472 don't wage war like we do. The Borg can easily rebuild from their losses, and when they win they don't conquer and subjugate their enemies they assimilate them and any advantages they have. Thus their victory over the 8472 would have them gain all the remaining 8472 and their ships to recoup their losses, and gain all their incredible powers in the process. They'd come out stronger than ever.

They can't easily rebuild. They can rebuild. Eliminate half of the Borg today and they won't replace those numbers tomorrow. It would take years or decades to replace those billions upon billions. It's a simple number game, and the same would be true of the 8472 - even if they win totally, they could suffer enormous casualties as a race and unlike the Borg they don't have an eay method to rapidly regenerate.

It'd be like ending DS9 without destroying the Dominion. Which is what happened.

No, the Dominion weren't some unstoppable single-mind juggernaut. They were individuals who would sign agreements and abide by them, and plus they weren't so far above the Feds in terms of power like the Borg and 8472 are to everyone else. Plus we had Odo to change their minds over the whole thing (and they admitted they care more about him than anyone else. So they did win in their own way). [/quote]

The Dominion was a single-minded juggernaught. It was a group of uniform single-minded changelings uniformly committed to subjugating all solids, everywhere, totally. That's the raison d'etre of the Dominion as an organization, why the Jem'Hadar were bred and the Vorta preen. They might be a tad more insidious about it, but same ends. We know that the Borg and 8472 can be reasoned with, to an extent, so a peace is that not much of a stretch.

And since Odo needed to humanise the Dominion, let Seven humanise the Borg, if one wants to use the Borg Queen's special interest in her (in itself, similar to the Female Changeling's special interest in Odo, and a classic stock way to toy with betrayal of a main character while giving a weakness to your otherwise unstoppable villain.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, the latter scenario is considerably more plausible. In the series proper, the Borg are a monolithic and expansive agency. There's nothing to stop them from attacking VOY whenever they chose and they don't have any real opposition. If they're fighting 8472, they do have a real opposition and there is a reason VOY isn't swatted like a fly beyond the weak BS about the especial interest the Queen has in Seven. A single, monolithic and unstoppable force is not really something it's plausible you can resist.

If they're fighting the 8472 everywhere, then the Borg will be guns blazing all over the place and this increases the odds of VOY getting blown to bits compared to the series proper wherein they left VOY alone unless VOY did something to get their attention. War would make them want to assimilate surrounding species and civilizations even moreso for the extra numbers and tech.

The superweapon solution goes the route of making VOY basically a threat to either party

Which means they'd go out of their way to hunt down and destroy/assimilate them, since one ship with limited capacity can't do enough harm with the weapon they manufactured against entire fleets even though the data could potentially result in weapons that could do that if they ever got to anyone with proper manufacturing capability. Voyager would be dead/assimilated in 10 seconds.

They can't easily rebuild. They can rebuild. Eliminate half of the Borg today and they won't replace those numbers tomorrow. It would take years or decades to replace those billions upon billions. It's a simple number game, and the same would be true of the 8472 - even if they win totally, they could suffer enormous casualties as a race and unlike the Borg they don't have an eay method to rapidly regenerate.

And if the Borg win, it doesn't matter if they lost half of their forces because the remaining half would now be so invincible that the fewer numbers wouldn't be a true loss.

If the 8472 win, they were already so powerful that a 50% loss wouldn't mean much to their threat level either.

The Dominion was a single-minded juggernaught.

No they weren't. They could be defeated in ship-to-ship combat and fleet-to-fleet combat, unlike the Borg and 8472 who could destroy entire Alpha Quadrant armadas with small numbers if they wanted. The Dominion were a major antagonist, but in terms of power they weren't at the Borg or 8472's level. Plus DS9 had the entire Alpha Quadrant to fight the Dominion with, so the stories are inherently different anyways.

We know that the Borg and 8472 can be reasoned with, to an extent, so a peace is that not much of a stretch.

And when VOY did have times where the Borg and 8472 showed they could be reasoned with, the audience hated it. Which means that's not an option either to reason with either side.

And since Odo needed to humanise the Dominion, let Seven humanise the Borg, if one wants to use the Borg Queen's special interest in her (in itself, similar to the Female Changeling's special interest in Odo, and a classic stock way to toy with betrayal of a main character while giving a weakness to your otherwise unstoppable villain.

The Founders showed they were individuals who could join into a Link, not a permanent Collective mind like the Borg. It's inherently a different thing.

And the audience hated the Queen anyways, so she's not an option either.

It's just not a good story, and the audience STILL wouldn't buy that one ship could have such an effect or accomplish so much on its' own.

 

[Kegg]

If they're fighting the 8472 everywhere, then the Borg will be guns blazing all over the place and this increases the odds of VOY getting blown to bits compared to the series proper wherein they left VOY alone unless VOY did something to get their attention.

Which made no sense. Just assimilate/destroy the damn ship already, it's not hard - a cube, two at the most. (these things are fleet-killers, remember.) Voyager would be dead pretty much the next Borg two-parter.

Now? You can't spare the cube, you need every cube you've got to fight 8472, a limited Borg response to VOY's threats would actually make more sense and would make either party more easy to fight. You do get how a major war preoccupies one's time, yes?

Which means they'd go out of their way to hunt down and destroy/assimilate them, since one ship with limited capacity can't do enough harm with the weapon they manufactured against entire fleets even though the data could potentially result in weapons that could do that if they ever got to anyone with proper manufacturing capability. Voyager would be dead/assimilated in 10 seconds.

Underestimating 'superweapon' there. If you can wipe out whole Borg fleets you may be too costly to try to assimilate - an attempt to barter may be their only option in these desperate times, and that's true for the fluidic space boys as well.

And if the Borg win, it doesn't matter if they lost half of their forces because the remaining half would now be so invincible that the fewer numbers wouldn't be a true loss.

No, because half is big. The Borg are now much, much less than they were. It takes a while to remake half of several billion billion whatever it is.

If the 8472 win, they were already so powerful that a 50% loss wouldn't mean much to their threat level either.

Then bigger losses. Or close off fluidic space for good and leave us with the 8472 already here, which is again rather Dominion-esque.

No they weren't. They could be defeated in ship-to-ship combat and fleet-to-fleet combat, unlike the Borg and 8472 who could destroy entire Alpha Quadrant armadas with small numbers if they wanted. The Dominion were a major antagonist, but in terms of power they weren't at the Borg or 8472's level.

I didn't say their ships were better, but they did almost bring the whole Alpha Quadrant to its needs - and had the wormhole not turned on them they would have. For them, too, a numbers game, and the numbers game of the Dominion is that they can just keep churning out Jem'Hadar and warships and swamp us and win. That is a juggernaught.

It's not even a juggernaught destroyed at the end of the series. They still have their amazing Dominion ship making capacity. They could just send a huge fleet not using the wormhole and wait how many decades it takes to reach the AQ, and then thwack us. We really have to take them at their word they're not plotting our outright annihilation.

The Founders showed they were individuals who could join into a Link, not a permanent Collective mind like the Borg. It's inherently a different thing.

It is a different thing. For one thing, the Founders were a collective mind, while for all their talk of the 'Collective' the Borg were effectively zombies post-FC. Borg don't operate as a mass of minds thinking together, they're all drones - unthinking cogs in some other mind. One didn't get the impression those drones were doing a lot of the thinking while part of the Collective.

 

[Anwar]

Which made no sense. Just assimilate/destroy the damn ship already, it's not hard - a cube, two at the most. (these things are fleet-killers, remember.) Voyager would be dead pretty much the next Borg two-parter.

Which is why they usually didn't have VOY take on the Borg in direct combat, just be peripherally involved in a manner that didn't invite assimilation. And in the few cases where there was direct combat, VOY escaped due to sacrifice ("One" sacrificing himself) or they did have a weapon to fight back ("Endgame"). It's not the same as what you'd be suggesting with them actively being hunted by the Borg and 8472.

Now? You can't spare the cube, you need every cube you've got to fight 8472, a limited Borg response to VOY's threats would actually make more sense and would make either party more easy to fight. You do get how a major war preoccupies one's time, yes?

And like I said, the war would drive the Borg to increase their assimilation of the DQ to bolster their numbers and tech levels. Which means they'd still be gunning for VOY even without the superweapon plot.

Underestimating 'superweapon' there. If you can wipe out whole Borg fleets you may be too costly to try to assimilate - an attempt to barter may be their only option in these desperate times, and that's true for the fluidic space boys as well.

And the audience would be PO'ed at the superweapon so obviously being a deus ex machina deterrent if it was that powerful. And if it wasn't that powerful, both sides would be willing to take their losses (which wouldn't equal a fleet) to get VOY. They'd still be dead.

No, because half is big. The Borg are now much, much less than they were. It takes a while to remake half of several billion billion whatever it is.

If we lost half of the human race, but the other half all gained the abilities of Superman, it wouldn't be a terrible loss and the remainder would now be superior to the 100% of humanity that had existed prior. It would be that way for the Borg.

Then bigger losses. Or close off fluidic space for good and leave us with the 8472 already here, which is again rather Dominion-esque.

Bigger losses and the audience just gets PO'ed that you did this whole story just to get rid of the Borg and turn the remaining 8472 into some tiny fringe group just so VOY would survive the series. A waste of two antagonists. Again they'd complain over how one ship couldn't accomplish so much.

And even if only ONE 8472 survived, they'd still be enough to destroy VOY easily (without the superweapon. With the superweapon VOY would've been destroyed long ago).

I didn't say their ships were better, but they did almost bring the whole Alpha Quadrant to its needs - and had the wormhole not turned on them they would have. For them, too, a numbers game, and the numbers game of the Dominion is that they can just keep churning out Jem'Hadar and warships and swamp us and win. That is a juggernaught.

A juggernaut is where one vessel is enough to trash the Feds' best efforts, not one where two fleets/armies do battle and the bad one wins while still taking losses. The Dominion are not in the same class as the Borg and 8472.

It's not even a juggernaught destroyed at the end of the series. They still have their amazing Dominion ship making capacity. They could just send a huge fleet not using the wormhole and wait how many decades it takes to reach the AQ, and then thwack us. We really have to take them at their word they're not plotting our outright annihilation.

It's still not the same thing as the Borg, as it was shown the Dominion could have been destroyed by the Feds (the virus) and chose to accept the peace treaty. With the Borg and 8472 the audience would never have accepted the possibility of VOY destroying either of them, nor would they believe either would accept a cease-fire and leave it at that. Neither are willing to do so (remember, the Borg turned on VOY the instant they could) and the only true conclusion to a war between them is for one to destory the other.

It is a different thing. For one thing, the Founders were a collective mind, while for all their talk of the 'Collective' the Borg were effectively zombies post-FC. Borg don't operate as a mass of minds thinking together, they're all drones - unthinking cogs in some other mind. One didn't get the impression those drones were doing a lot of the thinking while part of the Collective.

Then we agree, the Founders were a different thing from the Borg Collective and the Queen wouldn't work the same way the Female Changeling did for the Founders. None of the Founders' actions or traits would work for the Borg.