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Sick and Tired....

I'm sorry but seeing as I'm not happy with the new movie, I will keep bitching about that.
Uninformed opinions don't hold much value.

Or.. any, really.


Which is the bottom line really. Wether you are in favor of the new direction the studio (stupid or not) takes it is up to the individual to decide and form his/her own opinions. I have mine as do many others that have posted on here,...and as w/ Vulcans we are IDIC. And then we will be bickering yet again after next year,..of why the film sucked compared to it should have been done this way....., to OMG, J.J. made an absolutely fabulous movie!!!!
IMHO Modern TREK, besides a couple of actors being "over-priced" for the "ensemble", is still watchable in my book.
 
In a High Def world with shows filmed in HD and all the tech we have today to make shows, nothing modern holds a candle to any incarnation of Trek.
With that said, I do agree with earlier comments that the TNG films weren't as good as the TOS movies. It's not that they were bad because I still love each one to some extent, but they missed the opportunity to be great.
 
After watching some VOYAGER episodes lately, along with some other episodes of modern TREK I just can't understand some of us fans saying just how bad TREK has gotten. There was some magnificent shows that actually pulled at your heart strings, or gotten you to laugh so hard to bring a tear. Anyone else agree?

I have been saying this all along. The shows were really not as bad as people here said they were. I think everyone just ended up agreeing with everyone else and "assumed" it was bad. Star Trek has always been a show to "pass the time" with for me, and now it's not on anymore :(
 
After watching some VOYAGER episodes lately, along with some other episodes of modern TREK I just can't understand some of us fans saying just how bad TREK has gotten. There was some magnificent shows that actually pulled at your heart strings, or gotten you to laugh so hard to bring a tear. Anyone else agree?

I have been saying this all along. The shows were really not as bad as people here said they were. I think everyone just ended up agreeing with everyone else and "assumed" it was bad. Star Trek has always been a show to "pass the time" with for me, and now it's not on anymore :(

Quite possibly the only series I didn't fanatically watch, though it would be different if I would have had the chance was DS9. I eventually moved to a little pissant of a "township" where our cable didn't carry UPN. So I missed out on like the last three seasons of VOYAGER and am still catching up....LOL. I enjoyed ALL the movies (TOS & TNG, w/ a enjoyed but was kind of bored nod to Nemisis) and have TNG faves over some TOS. I just am feel that althoug I am not a "professional" critic.....I do have my own opinion.
 
At times, some of the more recent Trek can be ciriticized a bit too harshly. However, TOS, TNG, and DS9 are the pinnacles of Trek. Voyager is a decent show, but but falls short of the previous three. Enterprise is only enjoyable in its fourth season.

Yeah. That about sums it up nicely.
 
Don't like people who won't fall in line and kiss the ground Abrams walks on?

Isn't it about time for you to start your own board and ban everyone form it?

Sometimes reading through some of the posts on here I found that there ARE some people with that attitude about Mr. Abrams. Even before talk of this new movie, I was never interested slightly of "any" of his work, i.e....Felicity, Alias, Lost and so forth and even found MI:III to be lacking in what was in the first two.
 
I just happent to have a bottle of Chateu Picard--2265. Excellent year, If you ask me....

Here's to all ye who kept Star Trek alive so a lad like me could enjoy it today! HERE, HERE!:techman:
 
By the way... I'm more than aware that I'm in the minority, but....

I! LOVED! NEMESIS!!!

Of course, it would've been a heck of a lot better if all those good character moments had not been cut. *sigh*

But it's still a dang good flick --to me, at least. See, I'm not one of those blokes who slam a Trek series or film because it doesn't fit with my idea of What Star Trek Should Be. Quite frankly, if I did, I wouldn't have enjoyed TOS! I just accept that each show has a different style, as does each movie.

IMHO, VGR and ENT "tank" when the writers try to make the shows "return to The Bird's values", and they FLOURISH when they are allowed to go in new directions, like DS9 did.

Gene was Gene. Rick was Rick. I like it both flavors, as long as the flavors stay FRESH.
 
Voyager wasn't a bad series, but it bored me for one reason or another. I simply can't quite seem to get into it.
 
I don't think Trek has gotten bad so much as it has just kind of run out of steam. It is an immense undertaking trying to create a one-hour television show, and do two hour movies every few years, and I think the well of fresh ideas kind of ran dry.

As much as I trash the show Voyager I've still seen every epiosde probably at least twice,and it is true that bad Trek is often, although not always, better than good a lot of other television. There was so much to criticize on the show though, and a lot to fit had to do with the writers being uncreative when it came to plot resolution, and making things upon the fly.

I am only now getting into Enterprise and I am 50/50 on it. The show is novel and has distanced itself from the rest of the Trek universe well in creating its own set of characters and time. I've noticed in the first season there is a lot of cribbing from past Trek shows that often feels like recycling of old episodes. I never liked the Temporal Cold War from the outset as I though it was cheating on the part of the writers so they could pump a lot of techno-babble into the show and ignore canon continuity if it suited them.

The movies are probably too much criticized. First Contact was the only great one. The others suffered from being too much like extended versions of regular TNG episodes. Nemesis wasn't a good movie, but neither was SFS or TFF which means in Hollywood you can't win themall.

The success of TNG re-launched this huge media empire and I think TPTB got a little greedy and simply kept things going after they had already squeezed everything out of it they could. It's probably time for a break, enjoy the past, and 15 or 20 years from now some clever young scribe will come up with a great re-imagining and start the process all over again.
 
At times, some of the more recent Trek can be ciriticized a bit too harshly. However, TOS, TNG, and DS9 are the pinnacles of Trek. Voyager is a decent show, but but falls short of the previous three. Enterprise is only enjoyable in its fourth season.

When it comes to Trek movies however, the TOS movies easily triumph over the TNG movies. The only clunkers among the TOS movies are TMP and TFF, and even they have enjoyable aspects to them. Meanwhile the only TNG movie I enjoy is Generations. Yes, that's right, I said I like Generations. Also, Nemesis isn't bad as long as you don't think about it while you watch it.


I disagree with your VOYAGER assumption. I have always read that it was the "techcnobabble" that has been the downfall of most of the scripts. Not for me....I was and am in the group that finds that kind of thing sort of interesting. But when the story is compelling it doesn't matter to WTF they solve the problem or even how they came up with it, it is the future after all. I know I would just love that kind of future for us as humankind. :techman:

My main issue with Voyager was that it was entirely stand-alone episodes and no story-arcs. Yes, I know that aside from DS9 and Enterprise in its second half, Trek isn't really into arcs. However, considering Voyager's premise, there really should have been some sort of conitnual arc.

Hell, Trek in general could benefit alot from the Stargate format. While Staragte does consist primarily of stand-alone stories, there are continous stroy threads that carry-on through the series. Personally, this is the kind of thing Voyager should definately have done.
 
Sometimes reading through some of the posts on here I found that there ARE some people with that attitude about Mr. Abrams. Even before talk of this new movie, I was never interested slightly of "any" of his work, i.e....Felicity, Alias, Lost and so forth and even found MI:III to be lacking in what was in the first two.

My reply was technically to a particular post about JJ Abrams, but spiritually it was a reply to every MattJC post about any Trek made after 2000 or so.
 
Sometimes reading through some of the posts on here I found that there ARE some people with that attitude about Mr. Abrams. Even before talk of this new movie, I was never interested slightly of "any" of his work, i.e....Felicity, Alias, Lost and so forth and even found MI:III to be lacking in what was in the first two.

My reply was technically to a particular post about JJ Abrams, but spiritually it was a reply to every MattJC post about any Trek made after 2000 or so.

I've had no problems with Trek before that jerkoff Abrams came along.
 
In that case I must apologize. For some reason I thought you were just as anti-Enterprise as Stewey.

I must ask though, how do you know Abrams' movie is going to ruin Trek? They're not even done making it yet. That kind of hating-it-before-I-really-should-be-able-to thinking is what made me think of you as being similar to Languatron. Since you apparently don't have a history of doing that after-all I temporarily retract the comparison.
 
My main issue with Voyager was that it was entirely stand-alone episodes and no story-arcs. Yes, I know that aside from DS9 and Enterprise in its second half, Trek isn't really into arcs. However, considering Voyager's premise, there really should have been some sort of conitnual arc.

Hell, Trek in general could benefit alot from the Stargate format. While Staragte does consist primarily of stand-alone stories, there are continous stroy threads that carry-on through the series. Personally, this is the kind of thing Voyager should definately have done.
It's also the kind of thing that Michael Piller and the infamous Brannon Braga wanted to do with Voyager. However, UPN - in its wisdom - nixed their attempts to have ongoing storylines. Braga, for example, wanted a year-long "year of hell" arc but UPN vetoed it. UPN's interference was one of the reasons Piller left the show. Yeah, maybe they could have kicked up a stink and "fought" for what they wanted to do or whatever, but in all likelihood that simply wasn't an option, would have been more trouble than it was worth, gotten them fired, or who knows what else.

As a Voyager fan I know it's flawed and there were things that could have been done better. Had it been syndicated (like the vaunted DS9), free of interference from network "suits", maybe it would have met the standards it (allegedly, and in the opinion of some) fell short of. We'll never know.
 
I just don't like the idea of remakes of old tv shows or movies in general and I like the idea a remake of something that I am very fond of like Star Trek even less. But what I've heard about this plot of this movie is even worse then just a straight remake. Abrams should have just done a straight remake and just come clean about it with Trek fans and not try to be cute.
 
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After watching some VOYAGER episodes lately, along with some other episodes of modern TREK I just can't understand some of us fans saying just how bad TREK has gotten. There was some magnificent shows that actually pulled at your heart strings, or gotten you to laugh so hard to bring a tear. Anyone else agree?

I have been saying this all along. The shows were really not as bad as people here said they were. I think everyone just ended up agreeing with everyone else and "assumed" it was bad. Star Trek has always been a show to "pass the time" with for me, and now it's not on anymore :(

Quite possibly the only series I didn't fanatically watch, though it would be different if I would have had the chance was DS9. I eventually moved to a little pissant of a "township" where our cable didn't carry UPN. So I missed out on like the last three seasons of VOYAGER and am still catching up....LOL. I enjoyed ALL the movies (TOS & TNG, w/ a enjoyed but was kind of bored nod to Nemisis) and have TNG faves over some TOS. I just am feel that althoug I am not a "professional" critic.....I do have my own opinion.

I actually was/is a fan of DS9. Voyager I liked, but it didn't click like TNG or DS9, but I watched it because it was Trek. I remember when the last two seasons were on before the show ended, a lot of people griped about bad or boring they were. Enterprise was good, but I thought season four was too "TOSey", which was ok, and I realize why they did it but from the beginning I knew a prequal Trek series wouldn't work because there's just too much established history. I did really like the episodes "Storm Front 1+2," and "Regeneration". But oh well... what are we gonna do now :) I just hope this new film vamps Trek back up again and people won't talk trash about the franchise anymore.
 
One of the problems with this debate is that people automatically assume that quality of Trek from Voyager forward and the demise of Trek from Voyager on go hand in hand and they do not. They're mutually exclusive issues. What I mean is that whether or not Trek got bad has nothing to do with why it has failed so miserably lately (see: Enterprise, Nemesis).

I can sum up VOY's problem as a series and as Trek very simply: far too many episodes that either should have been 2 parters, 2 hour episodes or multiple story arcs. Instead, all too often, they crammed what started out as a really good story into 41 minutes. Threshold is widely considered the worst episode of VOY but it really starts out pretty good. It only falls apart in the last 7 minutes. I think Timeless should have been a 2 hour episode and there are numerous others like that that just died at the end. I also think that 7 of 9 was probably one of the best additions to the show and I think Jeri Ryan gets a bad rap as she's a very good actor and did brilliant work on that show. The criticism over bringing her on as "eye candy" was unwarranted.

ENT's failings during the first two seasons are more complex, however. The first mistake made was to not call the show Star Trek: Enterprise. This may seem insignificant, but I believe it hurt the show's credibility among Trek fans right off the bat and fans were predispositioned to be skeptical of it (not to mention that the average viewer didn't know what the hell it was).

The next problem the show had to overcome was the tech factor. There was absolutely no way in hell that the producers were going to make ENT tech look more prehistoric than 1966 TOS tech. They had the difficult task of trying to keep the tech 100 years more primitive yet still look 2001-cool to make it believable. The problem is that they failed to do this completely. Now, 8 years ago, some of the fools on this board actually thought that a Daedalus Class or that Matt Jefferies concept ship was the most appropriate ship for the new series. I nearly pissed myself reading that, the same way I almost piss myself on a daily by TOS fans who are going to boycott the new film if the Enterprise doesn't look exactly as it did in 1966. That being said, although I expected the new ship to look retro yet contemporary, I didn't expect the flippin' Akira Class with the nacelles flipped up. And that literally was my first reaction as I saw the thing from the top view shown on the logo patch and it looks exactly like the the damned Akira Class,which I do love, by the way, but it was completely inappropriate for a series set 225 years before ST:FC. And that was the problem with all of the tech on this show. It all seemed not only more advanced than not only TOS but quite often 24th century Trek as well. I'll give you 2 prime examples: the hyposparay and the communicator. 'Nuff said.

Now these tech issues may not seem that significant in the scope of the big picture but they really were when you consider what the biggest issues of the storylines for the first two seasons were. The biggest issues were that they were recycling the living crap out of plotlines from all 4 prior Trek incarnations and the rest of the episodes were generally speaking all filler, focused far too much on tech and special effects with the occasional fleeting reference to a temporal cold war. These plot issues together, more importantly painted a bigger picture that wasn't resolved until season 4 and that is the deliberate attempt by TPTB to take this prequel and turn it into a reboot as if TOS never existed. Other than the one time Romulan episode and the couple of Klingon episodes, there was hardly anything connecting TOS to ENT and that was a mistake in the long run and to be quite honest, Season 4 of ENT is one of the best seasons of Trek ever.

Even with all of the failings of the two series, and I've been saying this for 10 years, even the worst Trek is better than most of the garbage that's on in primetime on a nightly basis. So, with that, I've always liked Trek, even at the points where some fans would consider their worst.

So why did VOY barely survive and ENT fail? It had nothing to do with any of the problems of the shows. The fact is that a show doesn't have to be of any quality to stay on the air (see: Law and Order and CSI and of course every piece of crap show on MTV). Unfortunately, more really good shows get cancelled than actually last and all things considered, a four year run for ENT should really be considered successful. One of the best shows of the lat 10 years, Boomtown, was cancelled after just one full season and a couple of episodes. The highly acclaimed series Deadwood lasted just 3 seasons.

The first problem these latter incarnations had was the fact that they were on UPN, a network that was available in approximately 50% of the markets in the U.S. and even less cable providers. This network eventually failed and folded at the end of ENT's last season merging with the WB, another failing network. Both of these networks had tried unsuccesfully for nearly their entire 10 years existence to try to promote a primetime lineup that was focused on the youth demographic and after 1998 in UPN's case a decidely youth/urban demographic. By 2000, Trek was the redheaded stepchild of the UPN network as they had eliminated all of their unsuccessful (although really good) scifi shows and every time they tried to throw scifi back in it would fail miserably. So the reason Trek failed can easily be in part blamed on being on UPN.

But if ENT was on another major network, I submit that it still would have failed and would probably lasted 2 seasons instead of 4. The only way I see Trek surviving on TV in the future is if it is on a niche network like SciFi, Spike, G4, etc. People constantly talk about how successful new BSG is but it's numbers would be considered crap on a major network. The truth is that niche programming needs to go on a niche network.

Star Trek's biggest problem is that it's format is 20 years old. Every episode of Trek made since TNG:EAF has had exactly the same format and it's tired. It was tired in 1995, nevertheless 2005 when ENT was cancelled. All of the plotlines follow the exact same route and you can set your watch to the commercial breaks. I love all Trek but I'm a realist and I know that in order for Trek to be successful it needs to appeal to more than just the die-hards like us. The fact is that people like us make up a scant 2% of the Trek viewing audience (and for those of you deficient in the math department that means in the end of ENT's run we made up approximately 50,000 of the weekly viewing audience). The show needs to appeal to the other 98% of the viewers and it hasn't for a long time. Take it for what's it's worth but today's TV viewer doesn't have the attention span for Trek and doesn't have the tolerance for a drama that's using the same format that was used during the end of the Reagan Administration. There's a reason that half of the shows in primetime are reality shows and the sitcom is all but dead. It's the audience and Trek needs a reboot and needs to appeal to the bigger audience again.

So even with all of the problems of VOY and ENT, I still love them both but I want Trek to be accessible to all audiences, not just us as that's the only way it will be successful. I'm looking forward to the new vision of Abrams and I'm confident based on what I heard directly from Zachary Quinto's mouth last week that this reboot will remain faithful to everything we value about Trek. In order for Trek to remain successful, it needs to move forward or it will die.

-Shawn :borg:
 
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