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Shuttlecraft

During the TOS era, some shuttle craft MUST have had warp drive. In the Menagerie, Kirk and Mendez (actually, a Talosian illusion of Mendez) take a Starbase 11 shuttle to catch up the Enterprise on her way to Talos IV. Kirk wouldn't attempt this unless the shuttle had a warp drive. As we all know, the range of that shuttle was insufficient to catch the Big "E", so obviously these things have a limited range. One must also assume that there's a head in the aft compartment. Don't see any food dispensers so you better pack a sandwich.
 
Yes, I was about to mention that. The fact that the shuttle has warp engines is crucial to the plot. The fact that Worf returns to Enterprise in the shuttlecraft (and has time to reminisce in a personal log entry) rather than just being beamed up indicates he has travelled from another star system.

This is false.

1) Episodes like TNG "The Neutral Zone" show that, for whatever reason, there are occasions where the mothership waits in the outskirts of a star system while a shuttle brings passengers from an insystem location to the mothership.
2) All TNG episodes and many VOY ones show our heroes approaching their mothership at impulse, and several show them heading out from their mothership at impulse, in trips where there is no suggestion of warp drive being engaged at any point (see e.g. "Samaritan Snare", where hours of tedious impulse travel await Picard and Wes Crusher, or "Mind's Eye" for a similar LaForge experience). Warp travel by shuttle is exceedingly rare, despite the established ability, and only happens once in TNG (offscreen, "Skin of Evil").
3) Even episodes that appear to establish shuttle travel from one system to another, such as TOS "Metamorphosis", eventually reveal that the intent was to make a rendezvous with the mothership. So we can't trust dialogue that would omit the "mothership leg" of an interstellar trip; any such omission could be just another "Metamorphosis".

Why a shuttle would be used instead of the transporter is typically not explicated. Two fairly obvious rationales present themselves, but neither is confirmed: the system might be "warp-hostile", meaning whoever travels its length has to spend hours at impulse doing so, and a shuttle is a better victim than the mothership; or the shuttle might be needed at the other end of the trip as a base of operations of some sort. Nobody ever commnents on either possibility, though.

During the TOS era, some shuttle craft MUST have had warp drive. In the Menagerie, Kirk and Mendez (actually, a Talosian illusion of Mendez) take a Starbase 11 shuttle to catch up the Enterprise on her way to Talos IV. Kirk wouldn't attempt this unless the shuttle had a warp drive.

He might, as the point isn't to outrun the ship (no shuttle can do that) - it is to stop Spock. The mere act of making chase might stop Spock (indeed, it did!). And if it doesn't, there's nothing Kirk can do in a shuttlecraft, which cannot bombard the starship to immobility, cannot tractor her to a halt, and cannot even board her for reverse hijacking.

Less significantly, even trips intended to be conducted at high warp sometimes start at impulse, allowing an impulse-only shuttle to catch the starship in the early stages of the voyage. However, this is not the case here, as the ship is stated to be "warping out of orbit" outright, and the fact of the shuttle not being able to "catch" anything still holds.

As we all know, the range of that shuttle was insufficient to catch the Big "E", so obviously these things have a limited range.

Quite so; no doubt every spacecraft in Trek has range limitations, barring replenishment en route. But it should be pointed out that the range we saw in "The Menagerie" wasn't "it". Kirk consumed his fuel in a faster-than-recommended dash; at cruise speeds, the shuttle might have covered a significantly longer distance.

One must also assume that there's a head in the aft compartment. Don't see any food dispensers so you better pack a sandwich.

We get some hints of what our heroes throw out from the aft compartment in "The Galileo Seven"; even with a maximum number of passengers, there's room and a mass allowance for at least fifty pounds of sandwiches there... And plenty for a porta-pot.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Of course it's capable of warp speed. Indeed, only one post-ENT shuttle has ever been declared incapable, in "Time Squared". It just happens Worf's shuttle was not moving at warp, as is the case in 100% of TNG uses of that shuttle type.

Using warp for insystem travel is definitely possible, for small craft and big starships alike. Generally, and oddly enough, it just isn't done; even in emergencies, the runabouts of DS9 travel at impulse between the station and Bajor ("The Circle").

Also, having warp engines affect the surroundings isn't indication of being at warp. Many episodes feature warp fields being used non-propulsively - but more significantly, "The Sound of Her Voice" shows that a warp drive can cause problems despite the best efforts of our heroes to avoid such problems (i.e. they would naturally not just keep from engaging the FTL mode, but actually shut down everything they can, yet that still doesn't help any).

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, what you see is what you get. I see warp-capable shuttles at impulse 100% of the time, with nary a mention of star-to-star travel. You'll have to do better to convince me otherwise, is all.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The method of steering a shuttlecraft seems very inefficient (at least, under certain circumstances).

In "In Theory", Picard was frantically pushing buttons on the shuttlecraft's console in order to steer the craft away from the pockets of space anomalies that were popping up all around the shuttlecraft.

Presumably, Picard was typing new coordinates into the helm control. He was shouting out the numbers as he was pushing the buttons. I can only imagine that helm control is something akin to a numeric keypad.

Wouldn't it had been better for a shuttlecraft to have a yoke for steering? You can turn and push and pull a yoke much quicker than trying to type in numbers. And you can easily push the wrong buttons. And you have to think about the correct numeric coordinates before you push the buttons. It is too time consuming. You can react much quicker manipulating a yoke.

Using the keypad method might be o.k. for autopilot, or if there are no obstacles in the flight path.

I know Picard managed to steer the shuttlecraft just fine. But Picard is an extremely talented man, he can do just about anything. But not everyone in Starfleet is as talented as Picard.
 
Wouldn't it had been better for a shuttlecraft to have a yoke for steering? You can turn and push and pull a yoke much quicker than trying to type in numbers. And you can easily push the wrong buttons. And you have to think about the correct numeric coordinates before you push the buttons. It is too time consuming. You can react much quicker manipulating a yoke.
The logic in Star Trek is the opposite. When building the Delta Flyer on Voyager, Tom Paris doe put a yoke in for steering, and he is lectured by Tuvok for being illogical and inefficient relying on archaic and antiquated and outdated methods for flying which have no place in the modern world. Tom says he's sick of punching a keyboard to fly to defend the decision.
 
FWIW, the shuttlepod type that Picard piloted used to have a simple and relatively prominent set of "cursor keys" - a round shape divided into apparent left-right-up-down, with unlabeled pie wedges in between. Worf's console on the mothership had a similar set, as did the Conn and Ops consoles. Picard makes good use of the cursor keys in flying the E-D out of the titular jam in "Booby Trap".

Yet the shuttlepod console was drastically altered for "In Theory", introducing a raised centerline monitor. Picard's hands now rest on key-free areas of the console for most of the time, and his fingers manipulate random banks of keys rather than cursor keys. An odd decision from the decorators indeed.

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/season-4/4x25/in-theory-hd-366.jpg

...Perhaps he's piloting with foot pedals?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I should put this in the head canon topic. In TOS "The Enemy Within" shuttles weren't used to rescue the landing party because of windshear in the upper atmosphere. Winds were too strong in the area and a shuttle could not safely be used.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absences. Lack of star streaks does not in any way disprove that shuttles have never traveled at warp in the TNG and beyond era.

I've wanted to start a topic about shuttles for a while now. Official word seems to be that shuttles for the most part lack warp drive. Reasoning on the actual on-screen evidence indicates that they do. The simple fact of how shuttles are used should be enough to support they have warp. It is illogical and a waste of time and energy to transport anyone in a shuttle over a great distance when there is a warp capable craft nearby. It would take years at sublight to travel to the nearest star system. It would take days to travel from the edge of a star system to any habitable planet in that star system. It would be far easier and faster and safer for a starship to warp into the location the away team or landing party of shuttle crew needs to go.

Let's look through Trek's shuttle history.

TOS

Menagerie. This appears to be the shuttle's first appearance. Dialog indicates the Enterprise warped out of orbit and that Kirk and Mendez followed in the shuttle. Since the Enterprise warped out of orbit and not simply left orbit, dialog indicates the Enterprise was traveling at warp. Time was of the essence and Talos IV was 6 days away at maximum warp. An impulse only shuttle would have never caught up to the Enterprise's sensor range. An impulse only shuttle would never have been in any danger of being lost. The Enterprise would not have had to rescue an impulse only shuttle. The shuttle had to have been traveling at warp.

The Galilio Seven. The shuttle was used to explore the Murasaki 312 quasar. The Enterprise was in the area near enough to the quasar to make an impulse shuttle trip logical and practical. Perhaps the quasar also affected warp propulsion in the area making a shuttle necessary. The shuttle crew was exploring the quasar and had not intended to crash on the planetoid.

Metamorphosis. The shuttle was used while the Enterprise was elsewhere. The Enterprise later arrives at a pre-arranged rendezvous point. We have no indication why the shuttle was being used or where the Enterprise was when the shuttle went off course. Perhaps the Enterprise should have picked up Commissioner Hedford.

Last Battlefield: Lokai stole a shuttle from Starbase 4 two weeks prior to the episode. The Enterprise encounters the stolen shuttle 3 hours outside of the planet Ariannus. Starbase 4 is some distance from Ariannus. Warp is not explicitly mentioned but the implication is clear. Ariannus is not 2 weeks from Starbase 4 at sublight as that would still place Starbase 4 within Ariannus' star system.

TAS: Slaver Weapon. Shuttlecraft is en route to Starbase 2. It is not at Starbase 2 or near Starbase 2 when they encounter the Kzinti. Sulu gives their position as "passing Beta Lyre." Such a position reading would be meaningless if the shuttle was in the Beta Lyre system. The only thing that makes sense is the shuttle is traveling to Starbase 2 at warp.

TMP; Suddenly shuttles need warp sleds. Perhaps it's just this particular shuttle that needs a warp sled. Spock's shuttle travels from Vulcan to Earth.


I'll have to post other eras later. From TOS there is enough evidence to conclude shuttles were warp capable.
 
I should put this in the head canon topic. In TOS "The Enemy Within" shuttles weren't used to rescue the landing party because of windshear in the upper atmosphere. Winds were too strong in the area and a shuttle could not safely be used.

This is one of the many possibilities. Since the very point of the episode was that the main character became too wussy to pursue prudent courses of action, we can't tell which reasonable orders he failed to issue, and which logical options were in fact unavailable to him even if he did have the wits to try them out. But it's nicer to think that not even a competent officer (say, Spock) could have made use of the shuttles.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absences.

Statistically speaking, it always is. :vulcan:

Lack of star streaks does not in any way disprove that shuttles have never traveled at warp in the TNG and beyond era.

Of course it does. Warp does not happen without starstreaks in those eras.

We could just as well argue that lack of phaser beams and Klingon ships in no way disproves that the E-D is constantly fighting off a swarm of Klingon ships with phaser beams in every exterior scene of every episode...

Official word seems to be that shuttles for the most part lack warp drive.

Well, no. Only one shuttle in the history of Star Trek has ever been said to be incapable of warp - the Type 15 pod in "Time Squared". And implicitly, the primitive shuttlepods of ENT lacked warp drive. But official word is mum on all other shuttle models, and many if not most have been shown traveling at warp. Audience reasoning is not required for establishing the warp abilities of these types.

The simple fact of how shuttles are used should be enough to support they have warp.

Quite to the contrary, the way they are used as glorified orbit-to-surface elevators suggests they shouldn't even have impulse drive...

Were they ever shown traveling across long distances, things would be different. But they extremely seldom do. And most of the time they even then travel at explicit sublight.

It would take days to travel from the edge of a star system to any habitable planet in that star system.

Why? The Sol system is just six or so light hours in radius when Pluto is at its farthest (or, if we don't count Pluto as the edge any more, just two and a half light hours). This would be well in keeping with the impulse trip Picard and Wes Crusher took in "Samaritan Snare", say.

It would be far easier and faster and safer for a starship to warp into the location the away team or landing party of shuttle crew needs to go.

So why take a shuttle? That is the interesting question. If shuttles have warp drive, starships have it even better. Why waste time using an inferior warp drive? OTOH, if wasting time is not an issue, why bother with warp drive when impulse adds mere hours to an away mission that is likely to take days anyway?

Menagerie. This appears to be the shuttle's first appearance. Dialog indicates the Enterprise warped out of orbit and that Kirk and Mendez followed in the shuttle. Since the Enterprise warped out of orbit and not simply left orbit, dialog indicates the Enterprise was traveling at warp. Time was of the essence and Talos IV was 6 days away at maximum warp. An impulse only shuttle would have never caught up to the Enterprise's sensor range.

An odd claim to make about the Enterprise sensor range. Do you really suggest the ship lost sight of Starbase 11 at that point of the mission already?

(Also, the point of Kirk was not to catch the ship - a shuttle could do no catching, as it had no lasso to catch the ship with. The point was to make chase and hope that Spock would stop, and he did. What sort of drive would be needed for making that chase is probably the wrong question: all Kirk needed was a drive that would get him and Mendez into deep trouble and thus prompt Spock to show pity. But warp need not be better than impulse, because warp 2 would still leave Kirk just as high and dry as 1/4 impulse, against a starship that can easily do warp 6.)

An impulse only shuttle would never have been in any danger of being lost.

How so? Once out of fuel, it would be incapable of return. And since it's what Kirk and the fake Mendez chose as their transport, there supposedly was nothing better available at SB 11, meaning no help available save for perhaps another suicide sortie by another such shuttle. The nature of the drive system makes no difference there - warp, impulse, rockets, frantic pushing.

The Galilio Seven. The shuttle was used to explore the Murasaki 312 quasar. The Enterprise was in the area near enough to the quasar to make an impulse shuttle trip logical and practical. Perhaps the quasar also affected warp propulsion in the area making a shuttle necessary. The shuttle crew was exploring the quasar and had not intended to crash on the planetoid.

OTOH, the search area after the crash was stated to span four separate star systems. Kirk sent another shuttle (or perhaps several, dialogue doesn't tell) to conduct this search. This rather implies that those other shuttles were capable of interstellar travel in a short time - unless the Enterprise herself did a lot of back-and-forth shuttling, which makes one wonder why she didn't spot the castaways when at Taurus II.

Metamorphosis. The shuttle was used while the Enterprise was elsewhere. The Enterprise later arrives at a pre-arranged rendezvous point. We have no indication why the shuttle was being used or where the Enterprise was when the shuttle went off course. Perhaps the Enterprise should have picked up Commissioner Hedford.

We hear of an asteroid belt, though. It would make sense for the shuttle, rather than the ship, to navigate that belt, now wouldn't it?

Incidentally, the weird space creature of that episode is said to approach the shuttle "at warp", and immediately thereafter said to be "staying right with" the shuttle. The implication might well be there already that the shuttle was at warp, too.

Last Battlefield: Lokai stole a shuttle from Starbase 4 two weeks prior to the episode. The Enterprise encounters the stolen shuttle 3 hours outside of the planet Ariannus. Starbase 4 is some distance from Ariannus. Warp is not explicitly mentioned but the implication is clear.

Indeed. Also, we get another example of starbases having nothing better than further shuttles to make chase of Lokai with!

TAS: Slaver Weapon. Shuttlecraft is en route to Starbase 2.

More like what they in DS9 call a runabout, though. The craft is massive, and would have real trouble fitting inside Kirk's shuttlebay. Plenty of room for a high performance warp engine aboard, I guess.

TMP; Suddenly shuttles need warp sleds. Perhaps it's just this particular shuttle that needs a warp sled. Spock's shuttle travels from Vulcan to Earth.

More like from Vulcan to a point between Earth and V'Ger. Perhaps Vulcans are just weird? The logistics of separate drive and payload stages are always complicated (ask any trucker), so their use might tell us something very specific about the logistics of Vulcan courier services. Beats me what, though.

I'll have to post other eras later. From TOS there is enough evidence to conclude shuttles were warp capable.

The TOS shuttles, that is. And some TAS ones. Plenty of small craft in that era that probably lacked both warp and impulse drive, though - mostly from TMP.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, no. Only one shuttle in the history of Star Trek has ever been said to be incapable of warp - the Type 15 pod in "Time Squared". And implicitly, the primitive shuttlepods of ENT lacked warp drive. But official word is mum on all other shuttle models, and many if not most have been shown traveling at warp. Audience reasoning is not required for establishing the warp abilities of these types.

I was going by Memory Alpha as official word. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Shuttlecraft

In starship classification, a shuttlecraft or shuttle or glider, is a type of auxiliary craft typically attached to a starship or a starbase. Most shuttles are short-range transports, possessing only impulse drive or a limited warpcapability. Utilization of shuttlecraft is common for most spacefaring civilizations, especially for situations where the transporter cannot be used for landings, or where such technology does not yet exist.


Why? The Sol system is just six or so light hours in radius when Pluto is at its farthest (or, if we don't count Pluto as the edge any more, just two and a half light hours). This would be well in keeping with the impulse trip Picard and Wes Crusher took in "Samaritan Snare", say.

Depends on what you call the edge of a solar system, doesn't it? You seem to conclude the edge is the outermost planet (traditionally this was Pluto from the 1930s to recently). If you consider the Kuiper Belt, heliopause, or Oort Cloud as the edge, then the distance grows tremendously beyond a few light hours.

Light travels approx 173 AUs a day. Common acceptance is that light speed = Warp 1. Impulse is slower than the speed of light.

Kuiper Belt is about 50 AUs or 150 million km from the sun. That's about .23 light days or just under 6 light hours
Heliopause or heliosheath is approximately 80 to 100 AUs from the sun. Were getting close to 1 light day
Oort Cloud is 5,000 to 100,000 AUs from the sun. This is between 29 and 578 light days.

Depending on where the shuttle enters the system, the destination might be on the far side of the sun.
 
I was going by Memory Alpha as official word.

Seldom a good idea, alas. (No, it's never official. But it's not always correct, either. Such as here.)

Most shuttles are short-range transports, possessing only impulse drive or a limited warp capability.

Now this would be an interesting statistic: of Starfleet shuttles, only one post-ENT type is known to lack this "limited warp", but the article deals with shuttles in general. Perhaps most alien species prefer impulse-only shuttles?

Depends on what you call the edge of a solar system, doesn't it? You seem to conclude the edge is the outermost planet (traditionally this was Pluto from the 1930s to recently). If you consider the Kuiper Belt, heliopause, or Oort Cloud as the edge, then the distance grows tremendously beyond a few light hours.

But do starships stop there to drop off their shuttles? We never see an Oort cloud in Star Trek, unless the asteroid region in "Metamorphosis" was one of those. Only planets seem to be of any interest to starships...

Light travels approx 173 AUs a day. Common acceptance is that light speed = Warp 1. Impulse is slower than the speed of light.

Yet close to stars, even high warp is apparently barely faster than light - sometimes it might even be slower. See for example every instance of the infamous slingshot maneuver around a star, or "Paradise Syndrome".

If warp suffers from some sort of a molasses effect close to stars, but impulse does not, it becomes immediately obvious why Riker would slow down to impulse in the doomsday-category emergency of "BoBW". It also becomes clear that using a shuttle for insystem shuttling would be preferable to using the mothership, if the trip is going to involve hours of tedious travel no matter which drive mode is utilized!

Depending on where the shuttle enters the system, the destination might be on the far side of the sun.

If we choose the edge of warp-traversible space (let's call it the duonetopause for lack of worse technobabble) to lie somewhere near the Kuiper Belt analogues of the various systems that see our heroes use shuttles for shuttling, then we get the witnessed travel times of multiple hours but not multiple days, and everybody is happy. Outside the duonetopause, the mothership would be free to warp to the "right" side of the star system in a matter of seconds, so the above issue would not arise.

Of course, the heroes do not always use shuttles. Sometimes the mothership reaches the inner planets of a system just fine, and we often see her departing such planets at warp ("warping from orbit"). So we have to argue either that star systems are not created equal (which is fine, because stars come in a wide range of flavors), or that the duonetopause is subject to space weather (which is better, since Sol is one of those systems where insystem warping is usually perfectly okay, but at crucial times it suddenly isn't; Bajor is another such system, and famed for her nasty space weather).

Timo Saloniemi
 
But do starships stop there to drop off their shuttles? We never see an Oort cloud in Star Trek, unless the asteroid region in "Metamorphosis" was one of those. Only planets seem to be of any interest to starships...

When have we seen starships drop off their shuttles for some impulse journey to meet some other warp ship at a transfer point?
 
Hmm. I don't think there have been post-ENT cases of travel by shuttle from ship to ship beyond things like "The Child" and "The Most Toys" where sensitive or paranoid cargo precluded the use of transporters even across short distances.

But cases of planet-to-ship or ship-to-planet by impulse shuttle instead of transporter are plentiful, and cases involving star system scale distances are explicit, too. Early on in TNG, there's "Samaritan Snare" for ship-to-planet, there's "The Neutral Zone" for planet-to-ship, there's "Mind's Eye", etc.

(In TNG, it's easy to tell warp from impulse. In TOS, it's not, so we can endlessly shuffle the numerous TOS cases from category to category as we wish.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
The lack of visible toilets in shuttles just lends credence to my theory that everyone just pees and poos into the replicator.
 
The lack of visible toilets in shuttles just lends credence to my theory that everyone just pees and poos into the replicator.
But that raises the question, do shuttles have replicators? Runabouts do, the Delta Flyer does, but I'm not sure we've ever seen a replicator on a standard shuttlecraft.
 
As I was driving home tonight I was thinking for some reason about "The Paradise Syndrome" where the Enterprise has to crawl ahead of the asteroid for two months, hoping Kirk is okay down there someplace. But asteroids move at sublight speed, so the Enterprise must have been in the same system as Miramanee's world, and not so very far away since an asteroid two months away can't really be that far in terms of absolute light-minutes.

Why not just send a shuttle craft?

I guess they didn't think of that. Honestly neither did I till less than an hour ago and I first saw this episode decades ago. This MUST have occured to someone before.

--Alex
 
It was Spock's command call. He just plain didn't want to rescue Kirk.

Note that it's not even a matter of sending a shuttle. The ship herself is still perfectly capable of sublight movement, and would no doubt get to the planet faster than any shuttle. But Spock commands her to coast, to float nonpropulsively alongside the moon-sized rock, her bow pointing whichever way to better prove that she's not using her engines. For further proof, Spock states that the rock is "four hours" behind them at the start of the two-month trip, and again "four hours" behind them at its conclusion.

Why didn't Spock want to rescue Kirk? McCoy makes the argument for him: if they couldn't find and rescue Kirk before departing on the asteroid-diverting mission, it's pretty unlikely they could do so at any later date, either. Something has to change if there's to be hope, and that something is understanding the obelisk and its writing.

Why Spock decided to do the understanding while coasting next to the rock, rather than on orbit above Miramanee's world, we don't know. But it should have made no difference. (Except of course it would have - against all odds, Kirk had resurfaced in the meantime, and would trivially have been located from orbit had the heroes known to look.)

The other possibility is that the rock was traveling at such high relativistic speed that impulse engines for some fictional reason couldn't cope (that is, they could not add any appreciable speed to what the rock already had, because impulse speeds don't add up in a Newtonian fashion at high Einsteinian ranges for reason X). Note that the two months of rock-speed travel equate several hours at warp nine-plus. Yes, yes, unless we argue the rock was warp-capable, we have to assume warp nine gets slowed down under certain circumstances - but we can still give the rock very high speed and a great distance from the planet initially.

(This is quite a quandary, really. Were our Moon today barreling towards us from the depths of space on an impact course that would make it hit Earth in two months, there would be few scenarios where a starship couldn't impart a sufficient deflection even on something that size. Spock claims that a deflection of 0.0013 degrees would be insufficient to save the day - but that's only possible if the rock is very close to the planet originally. And why does Spock want to do all the pushing in one instant, rather than parking the ship on the orbit (or surface) and pushing for the next two months?)

But I digress. If we assume the ship couldn't do the Newtonian math, then a shuttle surely couldn't do it, either.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If warp suffers from some sort of a molasses effect close to stars, but impulse does not, it becomes immediately obvious why Riker would slow down to impulse in the doomsday-category emergency of "BoBW". It also becomes clear that using a shuttle for insystem shuttling would be preferable to using the mothership, if the trip is going to involve hours of tedious travel no matter which drive mode is utilized!

Timo Saloniemi

I honestly no longer know if we're agreeing or disagreeing, but I'm intrigued by this thought about warp being affected by proximity to stars. I've always toyed with an idea of FTL being affected by a star's gravity well (either being necessary for FTL or hindering it's use).
 
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