Shouldn't Lore Have Gotten a Trial?

[tim0122]

In Descent, Data deactivates Lore and, I think, disassembles him. But Lore, dangerous as he is, is a sentient being. He should have the same rights as Data. He should've been put on trial and imprisoned. I would say deactivate only if he was given the death sentence, which TOS established the Federation doesn't do except only in one circumstance.

What does everyone else think? I know why it was done from a TV show point of view, but did Data have the right to do what he did?

 

[BillJ]

I think their 'rights' are still a bit cloudy. They only ruled that Data wasn't the property of Starfleet, not a citizen of the Federation. If I remember my TNG correctly.

 

[tim0122]

I think their 'rights' are still a bit cloudy. They only ruled that Data wasn't the property of Starfleet, not a citizen of the Federation. If I remember my TNG correctly.

Good point.

 

[Vger23]

That’s actually a very interesting question. It may be a good idea for a novel sequel.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Perhaps it's more like a medically induced coma - to prevent him from harming himself beyond repair or others, pending a trial (which may come or not)

 

[NCC-73515]

Did they say in PIC what happened to Lore? Somehow he ended up in the new combined Data

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Would that be a form of rehabilitative therapy and prison/committal in one? As thought Data, Lore, B-4, and Lal were akin to Kirk's two halves from "The Enemy Within", and once integrated together, formed one whole person?

 

[Tosk]

Despite Data being an officer, I don't think they ever fully moved away from the "he's just a robot" mentality.

Data "I am apparently guilty of falsifying the Enterprise's records, of interfering with an investigation, of disobeying a direct order from my commanding officer. Your duty seems clear, sir."
Picard "Do you know what a court martial would mean? Your career in Starfleet would be finished."
Data "I realise that, sir."
Picard "Do you also realise that you would most likely be stripped down to your wires to find out what the hell has gone wrong?"

 

[Some Sort of Lemur]

Despite Data being an officer, I don't think they ever fully moved away from the "he's just a robot" mentality.

I wonder if Picard has tried to have his cake and eat it do wrt some of Data’s malfunctions.

Starfleet JAG: Well clearly after this hijacking we’re going to have to have an inquest…
Picard: Admiral, I don’t think we can consider this a hijacking given that it was a really a program implanted by Dr. Soong…
Starfleet JAG: We all have instinctual “programs”—after all we’re all machines too, electrochemical in nature, and the question here’s what degree of responsibility Lieutenant Commander Data has for his actions, and implications that has for his fitness for duty and potential needs for care and rehabilitation, just as we would for any officer suffering from a psychological…
Picard: Really, I think this is settled: the program’s run, Dr. Soong was mortally injured by Commander Data’s evil twin, there’s no danger it will happen again (assuming we didn’t mix up the two, no chance we’ll fall for his antics like last time).
Starfleet JAG: Wait, last time?
Picard: In any case it’s an issue of programming that’s solved, just as would be if there were some malignant file on the Enterprise’s computer.
Starfleet JAG: But the Enterprise computer isn’t a person…
Picard: Admiral, it’s a problem of engineering, not psychology…
Starfleet JAG: But…
Picard:…and I’m starting to feel a speech coming on.
[JAG Office ends transmission]


Starfleet JAG: Jean-Luc, about Commander Data stabbing Commander Troi…
Picard: Oh, the counselor isn’t pressing any charges.
Starfleet JAG: It’s a case of assault on the flagship! If she’s not pressing charges I will.
Picard: Data merely saw an interphasic parasite on her shoulder and thought he would take care of the problem.
Starfleet JAG: With a knife in a turbolift! Captain, Data’s counsel’s free to argue what he wants but I think we need some kind of legal hearing to sort out the facts of this case, for the protection of your crew.
Picard: It was just the result of an interphasic pulse interfering with his positronic brain. It’s purely a mechanical issue.
Starfleet JAG: Data’s a person, he doesn’t have “mechanical issues,” he’s in serious legal trouble!
Picard: He’s a robot and we fixed him.
Starfleet JAG: But my office feels the need to clarify…
Picard: Admiral, Commander Data’s a droid and I am getting…
[JAG Office ends transmission]

 

[Qonundrum]

Despite Data being an officer, I don't think they ever fully moved away from the "he's just a robot" mentality.

Data "I am apparently guilty of falsifying the Enterprise's records, of interfering with an investigation, of disobeying a direct order from my commanding officer. Your duty seems clear, sir."
Picard "Do you know what a court martial would mean? Your career in Starfleet would be finished."
Data "I realise that, sir."
Picard "Do you also realise that you would most likely be stripped down to your wires to find out what the hell has gone wrong?"

Now imagine Picard telling, I dunno, Okona, that he'd be stripped down to his arteries to find out what the hell he was doing. Talk about outrageous... I'm trying hard to think of another character, because everything up to but not including "arteries" has a sort of unintentional double entendre going for it, but Picard would never let Starfleet take over any human for that...

 

[Dukhat]

Did they say in PIC what happened to Lore? Somehow he ended up in the new combined Data

I don't think the actual Lore had anything to do with that.

On the subject of the OP, I would think that Data himself, with all he had been through with determining his rights as a sentient being, would have wanted Lore to have a trial. I assumed that deactivating and disassembling him was just temporary until such time that Lore could be reprimanded to the authorities. It could have even been a plot point for PIC season 3, but they went with some other rigmarole to fake-tease us that Lore was returning when he really wasn't. And on the subject of disassembled androids, we only saw B4 in PIC S1, not Lore. So who knows what happened to him?

 

[Mojochi]

In Descent, Data deactivates Lore and, I think, disassembles him. But Lore, dangerous as he is, is a sentient being. He should have the same rights as Data. He should've been put on trial and imprisoned. I would say deactivate only if he was given the death sentence, which TOS established the Federation doesn't do except only in one circumstance.

What does everyone else think? I know why it was done from a TV show point of view, but did Data have the right to do what he did?

So a trial for Lore, you say? By a jury of his peers, then? Well... as it happens, Data IS his only peer. Consider it prime directive stuff, if you must. Even Picard himself has been quoted as claiming that Data is "a culture of one", actually 2 in this case. Just like when Worf killed Duras, he was judged on Klingon tenets of justice, Lore was judged on Android tenets of justice. I can think of no one more uniquely qualified to render judgement upon him.

BTW, that sentence imposed was not categorically a death sentence, imho. He is sentenced to be deactivated & disassembled. This does not conclude that he is ultimately terminated. He is being denied existence, but it is not a variety of technical permanence, that constitutes an equivalence to death. He in fact is being returned to the very state in which he was found, having demonstrated why it might've been necessary to have him that way, to begin with.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Maybe Lore is more like a dog. Dogs have certain protections; you can't mistreat them, it's animal cruelty. You can't just go around killing them, that's canicide. But if the dog turns and severely harms or kills somebody, it can be put down. Disassembling Lore maybe be the nearest equivalent of putting him down.

 

[Ragitsu]

The difference is that folk aren't as obsessed with Lore as they are with those other things.

 

[somebuddyX]

I've wondered about Lore getting turned over to Daystrom and them altering his personality so he is less murderous, or being imprisoned for his crimes and then maybe later developing his own remorse and conscience about what he's done. I think Data made the right decision at the time, and the show did too in wrapping up that storyline. Lore as an anti-hero returning could have been cool though.

 

[ThankQ]

I've wondered about Lore getting turned over to Daystrom and them altering his personality so he is less murderous,

So put him in an institution and give him a robot lobotomy?

 

[Paul Weaver]

I wonder if Picard has tried to have his cake and eat it do wrt some of Data’s malfunctions.

Starfleet JAG: Well clearly after this hijacking we’re going to have to have an inquest…
Picard: Admiral, I don’t think we can consider this a hijacking given that it was a really a program implanted by Dr. Soong…
Starfleet JAG: We all have instinctual “programs”—after all we’re all machines too, electrochemical in nature, and the question here’s what degree of responsibility Lieutenant Commander Data has for his actions, and implications that has for his fitness for duty and potential needs for care and rehabilitation, just as we would for any officer suffering from a psychological…
Picard: Really, I think this is settled: the program’s run, Dr. Soong was mortally injured by Commander Data’s evil twin, there’s no danger it will happen again (assuming we didn’t mix up the two, no chance we’ll fall for his antics like last time).
Starfleet JAG: Wait, last time?
Picard: In any case it’s an issue of programming that’s solved, just as would be if there were some malignant file on the Enterprise’s computer.
Starfleet JAG: But the Enterprise computer isn’t a person…
Picard: Admiral, it’s a problem of engineering, not psychology…
Starfleet JAG: But…
Picard:…and I’m starting to feel a speech coming on.
[JAG Office ends transmission]


Starfleet JAG: Jean-Luc, about Commander Data stabbing Commander Troi…
Picard: Oh, the counselor isn’t pressing any charges.
Starfleet JAG: It’s a case of assault on the flagship! If she’s not pressing charges I will.
Picard: Data merely saw an interphasic parasite on her shoulder and thought he would take care of the problem.
Starfleet JAG: With a knife in a turbolift! Captain, Data’s counsel’s free to argue what he wants but I think we need some kind of legal hearing to sort out the facts of this case, for the protection of your crew.
Picard: It was just the result of an interphasic pulse interfering with his positronic brain. It’s purely a mechanical issue.
Starfleet JAG: Data’s a person, he doesn’t have “mechanical issues,” he’s in serious legal trouble!
Picard: He’s a robot and we fixed him.
Starfleet JAG: But my office feels the need to clarify…
Picard: Admiral, Commander Data’s a droid and I am getting…
[JAG Office ends transmission]

Those incidents seem more linked to things like Geordi’s brainwashing in The Minds Eye, the entire crew in The Game (saved by data), Troi, Obrien and Data in Power play, and Hallucinating in night terrors with one crew member going as far as trying to mutiny (ship saved by Data)

By all means try Data, but you also need to try everyone else.

 

[somebuddyX]

So put him in an institution and give him a robot lobotomy?

Kind of. I would probably try to explore what Lore wanted, what Data wanted for Lore, what exactly is ethical in this situation and not. I've gone back and forth on whether altering Lore is a good or bad thing.

 

[Maurice]

a robot lobotomy?

A robotomy by any other name…