You have to save Earth from avenging alien probes bent on destruction (driven by misunderstanding), as well.
Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?
- Thread starter Tuvix5675
- Start date
You have to save Earth from avenging alien probes bent on destruction (driven by misunderstanding), as well.
There were a couple times when he reverted to Voq's marbly accent when speaking English, too.
It reminded me of WWII movies where the German spy who had been speaking English with no accent at all throughout the whole movie suddenly starts speaking with a German accent when his ruse is uncovered by the protagonists.
Kor
Tyler was not in control. It's the same as in Stargate if they held Sarah responsible for the murders Osiris committed. Or in Genesis if they held all the crew responsible for killing each other as animals.
Tyler wasn’t in control but Voq was.
I just question how much of Voq is still there.
We’re told Voq is dead but that’s still his modified body living, can Voq be dead of Tyler lives, when Tyler is just a delusion Voq agreed to?
I question who is telling us this sh*t. I would take nothing as meaning anything legitimate from these so-called scientists. L'Rell experimented with this process. For all we know Voq will emerge at any time and twist Michael's neck like a chicken.
Hahahah...yikes.
Paris' start is very similar to Burnham's in CifK. He is a prisoner, recruited by a Captain who ends up on a Starfleet crew because of special circumstances. He gets his rank back a lot quicker, too.
So were the first IVF babies.
This is all a bigger mindfuck than "Is Discovery the Prime Timeline?" As silly as this sounds, I'm going to fall back to Transformers. The 1980s version. Megatron's body was changed into Galvatron's and Galvatron has a new mind created by Unicron, a new persona, and a new personality, with Megatron's old memories. He's a different person with someone else's memories.
Voq's body was changed to look like Ash's and had a new mind that was a facsimile of the original Ash's persona, personality, and with all of Ash's memories. If Ash's brain tissue is alive (again) and grafted onto Voq's, then it's not the same person as Voq.
What we have is not Ash or Voq, but it's AshVoq with the Ash part being dominant and the Voq part being recessive. AshVoq had a mental lapse became Voq briefly became dominant again when he killed Culber. AshVoq wasn't his normal self and could possibly have been "insane" because he wasn't himself in that moment. He literally lost his mind in the act. Or half of it anyway. He wasn't in his "normal" mental state or "right frame of mind". He was suffering from schizophrenia.
That's my (new) stab at it.
Voq's body was changed to look like Ash's and had a new mind that was a facsimile of the original Ash's persona, personality, and with all of Ash's memories. If Ash's brain tissue is alive (again) and grafted onto Voq's, then it's not the same person as Voq.
What we have is not Ash or Voq, but it's AshVoq with the Ash part being dominant and the Voq part being recessive. AshVoq had a mental lapse became Voq briefly became dominant again when he killed Culber. AshVoq wasn't his normal self and could possibly have been "insane" because he wasn't himself in that moment. He literally lost his mind in the act. Or half of it anyway. He wasn't in his "normal" mental state or "right frame of mind". He was suffering from schizophrenia.
That's my (new) stab at it.
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Thinking... what is more dangerous an IVF baby or Tylok
Voq's insides (biological term, lol) were removed from Voq's skin. He was flayed. Those insides were bone crushed, sawed up and redesigned to squish into Ash Tyler's emptied out skin case. It's quite revolting.
The mind thing was trickier. It was a layering of memories and consciousness. Little crossovers of each psyche could and did bleed through from time to time, however Voq was supposed to reclaim his dominance of character and control in time to affect L'Rell's stupid arsed plan to God know's do what. I think her and Voq wanted to find Discovery's secret and do T'Kuvma proud or something. Unfortuantely Voq didn't fully emerge until he met mirror Voq and then the poor bastard probably wondered what the hell was going on. Everything was just a mess.
Yet when Tylok killed Culber he was not the full Voq. He was just as much Ash and in being so is culpable.
What should be done with Voq/Tyler?
Hmmm.. Klingons and Federation at war..war needs to end..need to find common ground with enemy...resolve the story.
Gosh, if only there was a character with the experience of both worlds, who had an understanding and sympathy with both cultures... Maybe they even have a special love or connection to both worlds. If there were only a character like that, they could mediate a truce, and help humans and klingons find some (at least a little)common ground!
...Wait, nevermind. I've got a much better idea.
Let's plant a volcano bomb that can destroy the entire Klingon homeworld with the push of a button, and use that to force the Klingons into a truce.
I think I'm gonna be sick
Hmmm.. Klingons and Federation at war..war needs to end..need to find common ground with enemy...resolve the story.
Gosh, if only there was a character with the experience of both worlds, who had an understanding and sympathy with both cultures... Maybe they even have a special love or connection to both worlds. If there were only a character like that, they could mediate a truce, and help humans and klingons find some (at least a little)common ground!
...Wait, nevermind. I've got a much better idea.
Let's plant a volcano bomb that can destroy the entire Klingon homeworld with the push of a button, and use that to force the Klingons into a truce.
Voq is not wearing tyler.
I think I'm gonna be sick
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Yup. You and I are in total, complete 100% agreement.
Hmmm.... I don't absolve Ash, I just think he was suffering from Insanity and Multiple Personality Disorder. Which means he should be charged and committed at best, sentenced at worst. Yeah, you're right.
I was going to say that.
Maybe he needs to go through a trial, be found guilty and then that will be his ticket to redemption and heroics?? Yeah! Nothing like consequence. He could be prevented from doing any penal time and serve as some specialist on a sensitive and secret vessel and be given all the best missions.
No that is so last season.
Mind you just to backtrack awfully here. He is an interesting character so I suspect he will probably be redeemed or something.
There must be a Political Element. If the Federation wants L'Rell in charge of the Empire, putting AshVoq on trial probably won't do them any favors with her. She could turn all those Klingon ships right around back toward Earth if they didn't let him go.
Plus these two (Ash and L'Rell) need to make babies so that we can get our Klingons to grow hair.
I don't think there needs to be a trial if he left to go back to his people. I just think he could have redeemed himself all his experiences to bring an end to the war. It's his turnaround, and his denoument.
I can't believe they didn't think of this! And if they did, I can't believe they opted for volcano bombs instead!
It's like it's such a natural and perfect development for him, that it eluded the writers.
I can't believe they didn't think of this! And if they did, I can't believe they opted for volcano bombs instead!
It's like it's such a natural and perfect development for him, that it eluded the writers.
If I thought that VoqAsh had bits of the real Ash's brain grafted into his own that might make me reconsider at least who I think he is.
Whoever he is though, whether he's culpable of Culbert's murder hasn't been resolved for me. We just have L'Rell's word that Voq is gone and they rushed through all scenes that dealt with the follow up. If he guilty? Is he sane? Who knows?
There was so little follow up I don't understand why they bothered to kill Culbert. If there had been follow up and consequences maybe I could see it (Although Trek's first gay couple on tv suffering the bury your dead trope so quickly is pretty disappointing), but since they briskly absolved VoqAsh of any responsibility and even rubbed Stamet's face in it by letting him see his partner's murderer roaming the halls free, I don't see where Culbert needed to die.
I'm not sure Occam's Razor applies in the fantastic universe of STAR TREK. Call it a mind, call it a soul, call it a katra, but we've seen minds and personalities swapped around since "Return to Tomorrow" at least. Are we going to argue that Kirk and Spock and Diana Muldaur were simply suffering from some sort of high-tech multiple personality disorder in that episode? Pretty sure that wasn't the intent of the episode.
And ST III, nobody is talking about curing Spock's "amnesia," we're told repeatedly that he needs to have his essence or katra restored to him. It's telepathic Vulcan mysticism.
Weird shit happens in STAR TREK. Looking for "mundane explanations" kinda misses the point and, arguably, gets in the way of the fun. It's like Scully stubbornly insisting that there's no such thing as UFOs and poltergeists even though they've been showing up for years.
