Should Tyler be charged with Dr. Culber's murder?

[Longinus]

Well, I agree that this could be argued many different ways. It's far from clear to me. Maybe that was the writers' intentions - to have people arguing about it. The whole gruesome mess makes no real sense to me either way, whether I use your interpretation or mine.

It is indeed clear that this is far from clear! It is indeed perfectly possible that the writers themselves do not really know how it is supposed to work. I just try to construct an interpretation that makes at least tiny bit of sense to me.

L'Rell saying "we reconstructed his consciousness" suggests to me that a real Tyler is in there with Voq, either the original transferred in, or a duplicate of the original that has Tyler's personality and memories. To me, my consciousness is "me." Even if it is a duplicate or a clone, it doesn't make this Tyler any less "real." He would still not be Voq or an altered personality of Voq.

Real Tyler, or a copy of real Tyler, or perhaps just Voq becoming Tyler like a caterpillar becomes a moth.

To me, it doesn't make sense for her to say "we grafted Voq's psyche into Tyler's" if there is not both a Voq psyche and a Tyler psyche in the mix. Instead, it should be something like "we grafted Tyler's memories into Voq's psyche."

There are obviously different personas, it is not just memories. But I still think it is ultimately one person. Like I said before, sometimes you might dream you're someone else. You don't remember the awake you, it really feels you're the person you dream being. Yet it still is you having that experience. So in a sense Voq is 'having a dream' of being Ash Tyler. But there still is just one person having that experience. This is basically what happens in split personality disorder.

Whether or not the physical brain is Voq or Tyler is not something I have a strong opinion about either way, though I lean toward it being at least a clone of Tyler's.

As far as being undetectable, it makes more sense if it's Voq's psyche deposited into a human brain. I don't think L'Rell would care that much whether the physical brain was Voq's as long as the essence that made him himself was contained there. She sure had no compunctions about torturing him, cutting up his bones, excising all or parts of his organs, and destroying his face forever. I should think losing the face would be much harder than losing the physical brain. After all, this is Trek. His essence can be transferred into a metal ball, and he's still Voq. She said he would have to give up "everything" and that might have included his physical brain. As I said before it makes no sense at all that they even kept his Klingon bones and muscles, unless maybe they were supposed to be much stronger and therefore more useful in completing his mission.

If they had wanted to just craft Voq's psyche into Tyler's brain, then they could have just done that, and the whole insane plastic surgery to make Voq look like Tyler would have been unnecessary. Only way this makes any sense is if L'rell cannot really transfer souls, and he wanted to keep Voq alive and to do that she had to use his brain and body.

It seems to me the whole drama and poignancy is in the fact that two enemies are trapped in one head, struggling for primacy. The writers even have Saru state as much outright. If there is just one being in there all along, with some stolen memories, it loses practically all of its dramatic punch for me.

I think the drama is about person struggling with who they are. It is 'two people trapped in one head' in poetic sense, not in literal. Real life split personality disorder has been described with such terms often enough. I think that the memories bleeding over and Tyvoq being confused about things and eventually descending into madness supports the idea that there is really just one person having that experience. It is not always clear either or, the two personas can mix.

You've given me food for thought though. What do you believe the harvested DNA was used for?

Presumably they needed him to register as human in medical scans, so he has to have some human DNA implanted.

 

[skylark14]

What you're describing with the blackouts is similar to what actually happens to people that have split personalities, one personality takes control the others are submerged, maybe not even witnessing or conscious of what the body is doing, in spite of this if one of those personalities committed murder, they would arrest and charge the legal person, not the split personality-how would they even do that? So, even if the other "personalities" had no participation, they would be charged and imprisoned with the "personality" that is responsible since they occupy the same body. This was kind of my point, but Star Trek is a different universe, so who knows what kinds of laws they have for crimes committed during alien possession.

I guess it goes back to my different interpretation of what we're seeing on the screen. I've never seen the Tyler character as two different personalities but rather two different beings totally unconnected to each other except by proximity. They're like two separate sets of software running concurrently on one hard drive. The multiple personalities you describe not only share the same body but are in fact different aspects of the same person. They are not different beings.

I can't really use real world logic on the problem. I expect a multiple who committed murder would probably be confined to a mental institution not a prison. Star Trek has always told me that two different beings can at least temporarily exist in one body, and that only the one who is in control of the body is responsible for what the body does. This actually makes complete sense to me in that world and anything else does not seem like justice.

If Voq is completely gone, then I don't see how Tyler can be held responsible, always assuming he was truly unaware of what was happening to him. It appears he always either thought he was having flashbacks, or when Voq actually acted, was temporarily "asleep." So far as I can recall, Star Trek justice has never held anyone liable for what their body did when they were not in conscious control of it. Your MMMV as they say here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There was no murder. A Klingon officer on active service engaged in a covert operation killed a Starfleet one also on active service, during a war between their respective powers.

I don't agree. It is indeed murder, for at least two reasons:

- Culber was not a threat to Voq/Tyler...he didn't physically attack him or anything like that. So the claim of "self-defense" goes out the window.
- Culber was a doctor. According to any decent rule of civilized warfare, doctors (all medical personnel, really) are off limits. Killing Culber would be like taking a shot at the Red Cross on the battlefield. You just don't do that in warfare.

 

[Spot261]

Nonsense. It is indeed murder, for at least two reasons:

- Culber was not a threat to Voq/Tyler...he didn't physically attack him or anything like that. So the claim of "self-defense" goes out the window.
- Culber was a doctor. According to any decent rule of civilized warfare, doctors are off limits.

Where have we ever heard of any conventions that SF and the Klingons had signed to at this stage?

 

[Longinus]

I guess it goes back to my different interpretation of what we're seeing on the screen. I've never seen the Tyler character as two different personalities but rather two different beings totally unconnected to each other except by proximity. They're like two separate sets of software running concurrently on one hard drive. The multiple personalities you describe not only share the same body but are in fact different aspects of the same person. They are not different beings.

A lot of people have said something like this. How would you expect things to happen differently in the show, if it was a split personality? Because to me what we see happening is exactly what it would look like.

 

[Nyotarules]

but you are not fixing radiation dead cells short of magic.

Like (Genghis) Khan blood....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Where have we ever heard of any conventions that SF and the Klingons had signed to at this stage?

General Chang quotes interstellar law in ST VI.

And besides, the rules of civilized warfare - in fiction OR real life - aren't something you "sign on" to. They automatically apply to every combatant, like it or not. Otherwise, they mean nothing.

 

[skylark14]

It is indeed clear that this is far from clear! It is indeed perfectly possible that the writers themselves do not really know how it is supposed to work. I just try to construct an interpretation that makes at least tiny bit of sense to me.


Real Tyler, or a copy of real Tyler, or perhaps just Voq becoming Tyler like a caterpillar becomes a moth.



There are obviously different personas, it is not just memories. But I still think it is ultimately one person. Like I said before, sometimes you might dream you're someone else. You don't remember the awake you, it really feels you're the person you dream being. Yet it still is you having that experience. So in a sense Voq is 'having a dream' of being Ash Tyler. But there still is just one person having that experience. This is basically what happens in split personality disorder.


If they had wanted to just craft Voq's psyche into Tyler's brain, then they could have just done that, and the whole insane plastic surgery to make Voq look like Tyler would have been unnecessary. Only way this makes any sense is if L'rell cannot really transfer souls, and he wanted to keep Voq alive and to do that she had to use his brain and body.


I think the drama is about person struggling with who they are. It is 'two people trapped in one head' in poetic sense, not in literal. Real life split personality disorder has been described with such terms often enough. I think that the memories bleeding over and Tyvoq being confused about things and eventually descending into madness supports the idea that there is really just one person having that experience. It is not always clear either or, the two personas can mix.


Presumably they needed him to register as human in medical scans, so he has to have some human DNA implanted.

You're certainly right that there is a lot of drama inherent in that as well, certainly a more real world type drama. But so far the writers haven't shown me that they're much into subtlety and nuance or real world drama, though that would certainly be interesting to see. I honestly don't know if I would want Star Trek to be that real, where what's left of the Voq/Tyler personality has a mental breakdown and has to be committed to a mental institution. It shocks me a little bit to say that because I generally like a lot of mental and emotional exploration in my entertainment - but nah, in my Star Trek I want them to be the good guy and the bad guy, with the good guy winning out.

 

[Spot261]

General Chang quotes interstellar law in ST VI.

Which is neither at this point in the timeline nor once mentions anything about the circumstances we are discussing.

 

[Longinus]

You're certainly right that there is a lot of drama inherent in that as well, certainly a more real world type drama. But so far the writers haven't shown me that they're much into subtlety and nuance or real world drama, though that would certainly be interesting to see. I honestly don't know if I would want Star Trek to be that real, where what's left of the Voq/Tyler personality has a mental breakdown and has to be committed to a mental institution. It shocks me a little bit to say that because I generally like a lot of mental and emotional exploration in my entertainment - but nah, in my Star Trek I want them to be the good guy and the bad guy, with the good guy winning out.

I want Tyvoq to reconcile his two warring personalities and by doing so gain unique insight into the Klingon /Human conflict which helps him to become instrumental to brokering peace between the two warring powers. That is what I want to see in my Star Trek!

 

[skylark14]

A lot of people have said something like this. How would you expect things to happen differently in the show, if it was a split personality? Because to me what we see happening is exactly what it would look like.

I don't know that I would expect much of anything to happen differently in that case, and it certainly is an interesting concept. Voq just goes along innocently being Tyler until such time as L'Rell wakes him up. I would think it would be much easier for him to take over than if there was a real Tyler to overcome. I guess I just interpret what I see in the way that seems most likely to me, and granted, what I see as most likely has probably been conditioned by years of watching past Treks where sharing consciousness sometimes happens.

Although I have no real reason to believe what L'Rell says, if I do believe her words, they personally lead me further away from the split personality theory. However, I have to admit that you have nudged my meter a little further in your direction the more I think about it. You talk in another post below about wanting to see Tyler/Voq reconcile his condition, so do you believe then that L'Rell did not really dispel Voq's persona from the mind? If she did, I don't see how there would be much left to reconcile. The Tyler persona seems to just be Tyler now, with access to the memories without much emotional attachment to them.

 

[XCV330]

Spock 1 still had viable DNA in his tooth pulp not yet broken down by radiation. The genesis wave copied him from his tooth pulp. Or bits of his dead cells in his poop. Why the Genesis wave didnt make a bazillion clones of him, instead of just one, I don't know. I don't know what he ate, constantly, to grow that fast, either. Genesis wave almost seems a like a single movie plot point that the writers never intended to revisit again to deal with those kinds of ideas.
there.

 

[Longinus]

You talk in another post below about wanting to see Tyler/Voq reconcile his condition, so do you believe then that L'Rell did not really dispel Voq's persona from the mind? If she did, I don't see how there would be much left to reconcile. The Tyler persona seems to just be Tyler now, with access to the memories without much emotional attachment to them.

At the moment it indeed seems that this is what has happened, and if that's really all this nonsense amounted to, then I'm really disappointed.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I want Tyvoq to reconcile his two warring personalities and by doing so gain unique insight into the Klingon /Human conflict which helps him to become instrumental to brokering peace between the two warring powers. That is what I want to see in my Star Trek!

Split personalities are one indivifual and HIS or HER personalities.
Tyler is not a personality of Voq, tyler is an insividual. Voq is not a personality of Tyler, voq is an individual.

They took two individuals and put them together through poorly explained science fiction. They aren't the same being. You keep assuming that there is some modern reality mental disorder at work.

 

[Longinus]

Split personalities are one indivifual and HIS or HER personalities.
Tyler is not a personality of Voq, tyler is an insividual. Voq is not a personality of Tyler, voq is an individual.

Maybe if you repeat it one more time, I will agree with you. No, no I won't!

They took two individuals and put them together through poorly explained science fiction.

Or they copied one Individuals memories and personality in another person's mind. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.

They aren't the same being.

Or they are. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.

You keep assuming that there is some modern reality mental disorder at work.

I know, trying to pretend that this show makes any sense is indeed a bit of exercise in futility...

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Maybe if you repeat it one more time, I will agree with you. No, no I won't!


Or they copied one Individuals memories and personality in another person's mind. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.


Or they are. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.


I know, trying to pretend that this show makes any sense is indeed a bit of exercise in futility...

I think its a little funny that you're calling someone out with this discussion for being repetitive.

I never said it makes any sense. Warp Drive doesn't make sense. This isn't a person who made up a split personality to shield themselves from trauma. Its pretty clearly stated that tyler was a person, voq is obviously a person, and the used science to smash them together. It isn't simply a form of schizophrenia.

 

[skylark14]

Maybe if you repeat it one more time, I will agree with you. No, no I won't!


Or they copied one Individuals memories and personality in another person's mind. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.


Or they are. Nothing that is actually seen contradicts this.


I know, trying to pretend that this show makes any sense is indeed a bit of exercise in futility...

I'm still leaning toward the "they were two individuals in one mind" theory. However, Longinus' theory makes more sense to me now than it did originally and would be an interesting twist. I kind of doubt they would go there, as they haven't really done much that was out of the ordinary so far. I'm hoping we'll get an actual answer to this definitively at some point. Even though I haven't found the writing all that intriguing so far, I still have to say that I'm enjoying Discovery. I was a fan of the original Star Trek, but each series that came after was kind of a hard slog. I'd watch because I loved the original but would often fall asleep halfway through. For some reason, I've been able to engage with the characters in this new one much more. They and their ship somehow seem more real to me, and I hope they'll be able to come up with better stories next time.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I'm still leaning toward the "they were two individuals in one mind" theory. However, Longinus' theory makes more sense to me now than it did originally and would be an interesting twist. I kind of doubt they would go there, as they haven't really done much that was out of the ordinary so far. I'm hoping we'll get an actual answer to this definitively at some point. Even though I haven't found the writing all that intriguing so far, I still have to say that I'm enjoying Discovery. I was a fan of the original Star Trek, but each series that came after was kind of a hard slog. I'd watch because I loved the original but would often fall asleep halfway through. For some reason, I've been able to engage with the characters in this new one much more. They and their ship somehow seem more real to me, and I hope they'll be able to come up with better stories next time.

I'm buying into the two different people shoved together one cause that's what they said it was. As to more specifics, we may never get many

 

[gblews]

Yes there was. Klingons killed him and Voq literally wore his skin.

I don't recall this being stated. Can you (or anyone) cite the episode or scene or dialogue?

 

[CaptainMurdock]

He shouldn't be charged with murder but he should go back to Earth to tell his story. PS I have no life.