Should it have been a straight reboot?

[flemm]

I enjoyed the new film a lot, but the 'alternate timeline' stuff was a bone thrown to us fans, and it probably hurt the film for casual viewers, I think. I say if they wanted a reboot, they should have come straight out and said it, rather than adding in all the time travel stuff.

My initial reaction was basically the same, that the Spock Prime stuff was responsible for the movie's most glaring problem (its hopelessly tortured plot), and that the writers would have been better served to go with a straight reboot minus the time travel and connection to the Prime universe.

Still, it's hard to compare something that exists with something that does not exist. The movie certainly seemed to be palatable enough for the masses despite the fanwankiness of the Old Spock element. Orci and Kurtzman seem to mainly excel at repackaging existing material, so perhaps their attempt at a straight reboot would have been a weaker story, not a stronger one.

At this point I don't think it matters too much, as long as the writers/producers are smart enough to let the new universe stand on its own for the sequels.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Maybe Spock Prime realized what I have always suspected: History won't be changed, since he and Nero emerged into the past of a different universe (thanks to the black hole). It wasn't just time travel, it was inter-universal travel as well. It would certainly explain why the Prime universe can continue to exist - since Spock and Nero didn't travel to its past.

You are stretching it too far. Spock-New literally explains how their lives have changed, "an alternate reality".. alternate doesn't mean different, its the same universe but the elements in it has changed hence the outcome of the compounded universe is totally different now.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe Spock Prime realized what I have always suspected: History won't be changed, since he and Nero emerged into the past of a different universe (thanks to the black hole). It wasn't just time travel, it was inter-universal travel as well. It would certainly explain why the Prime universe can continue to exist - since Spock and Nero didn't travel to its past.

You are stretching it too far. Spock-New literally explains how their lives have changed, "an alternate reality".. alternate doesn't mean different, its the same universe but the elements in it has changed hence the outcome of the compounded universe is totally different now.

I didn't base this on Spock's explanation. I based it on my own observation of the events. It would explain, for instance, how *this* time, the original timeline remains unaltered, whereas in all other instances of time travel, changes to the past DO affect the future.

 

[StarTrek1701]

I didn't base this on Spock's explanation. I based it on my own observation of the events. It would explain, for instance, how *this* time, the original timeline remains unaltered, whereas in all other instances of time travel, changes to the past DO affect the future.

Huh... didn't know that part, I don't think there is any point in the movie that the characters say that, do they? I thought that at the end its a "brand new" timeline that is actually a restart of what "one was"?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I didn't base this on Spock's explanation. I based it on my own observation of the events. It would explain, for instance, how *this* time, the original timeline remains unaltered, whereas in all other instances of time travel, changes to the past DO affect the future.

Huh... didn't know that part, I don't think there is any point in the movie that the characters say that, do they? I thought that at the end its a "brand new" timeline that is actually a restart of what "one was"?

It is a new timeline, yes. But it didn't wipe out the old one.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

I think it should have been a gay reboot.

I just got it!!!!!!!
Geez, im as bad as Data when he finally got his emotion chip!!

 

[I am not Spock]

As it is, the movie made Spock look stupid. Everytime on TOS there was a potential change in the timeline, Spock was the one who said "History must not be changed". But in XI, when the changes included the death of his mother 60 years before she died originally, and the death of his homeworld presumeably eons before that was supposed to happen, he just accepts it. Makes no sense to me, but there it is.

Maybe Spock Prime realized what I have always suspected: History won't be changed, since he and Nero emerged into the past of a different universe (thanks to the black hole). It wasn't just time travel, it was inter-universal travel as well. It would certainly explain why the Prime universe can continue to exist - since Spock and Nero didn't travel to its past.

Yeah, the plot makes a lot more sense if Spock Prime and Nero showed up in an alternate universe from the very beginning.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Once again, I'm not convinced that IS Spock prime. I still think it's just a straight remake thinly disguised as a reboot to make the canon nazis less-angry.

 

[Yug]

^ Once again, I'm not convinced that IS Spock prime. I still think it's just a straight remake thinly disguised as a reboot to make the canon nazis less-angry.

Amen on the canon nazi bit...

But I don't think prime Spock is dumb as an earlier poster said, we saw a wiser older Spock Prime with 200+ years of a adventerous life. He's learned so much that isn't always logical... we saw on Old Spock who understood things beyond his Vulcan "programming" while still holding on to his belief in logical thinking, that's his gift and his life's journey. We saw the greatest Spock ever seen on screen, the ability to crack a smile without ever smiling, to understand things that may never make any real sense, and the ability to accept what he can't explain. That is Spock's true genius, and why Nimoy is the best actor in Trek, and really understands his character.

So I was happy we saw Prime Spocks arc, even if it was a gift to the classic Trek fans. It made the story better, and gave it weight, and I truly enjoyed it all... and if I may be so bold: If Leonard Nimoy put his stamp of approval on this new Trek, that's good enough for me.

 

[Cyke101]

All we needed to see in order to confirm the whole Spock Prime controversy is a shot of the Enterprise-E looking at the Jellyfish getting sucked into the black hole. But even then that would probably be just a bit too much fanservice.

 

[Mach5]

So I was happy we saw Prime Spocks arc, even if it was a gift to the classic Trek fans. It made the story better, and gave it weight, and I truly enjoyed it all... and if I may be so bold: If Leonard Nimoy put his stamp of approval on this new Trek, that's good enough for me.

I applaud you, sir!

 

[Kelso]

^ Once again, I'm not convinced that IS Spock prime. I still think it's just a straight remake thinly disguised as a reboot to make the canon nazis less-angry.

Neither am I.

Not that it matters much, but the Spock in XI appears to have originated in a universe where Kirk was the captain of the Enterprise by 2258 and a 24th century in which the technology/stardates appear to be different from the one we are familiar with.

There are other ways to rationalize these things, of course, but sometimes the simplest explanation...

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

didn't the principals get together to do an audit of the first few pics before TVH or SFS, and then right before the accountants went to work, par announced, 'hey these things are in profit.'

In order to make sure everyone signed for ST V, William Shatner fought for hefty contractual pensions for De Kelley and "the gang of four". They'd really been left behind in comparison with movie contracts of the day.

Interesting, never knew that. I know that they all got a pension for the films, but not that Shatner led the charge, so to speak. Yet, the gang of four still disparaged Shatner never mentioning how he fought for their retirement pay. Well, Koenig has been a bit more "forgiving" of Shanter, especially in his interview of on the British retrospective of TOS, citing that Shanter is myopic in his approach to acting and a charming but aloof person.

Of course, it was pure alturism on Shatner's part. He wanted them all in his Trek film, but it's still a significant action.

I've come to feel that the Shanter-Takei feud is part "acting" and part because both have a similar "myopic" approach to their roles in Star Trek. However, Shatner was the star of the show and Takei wasn't.

Oh, well... what was the topic... oh, yeah, reboot, restart, revamp, remake, re-whatever.

If Star Trek (2009) had been a straight reboot without the loose connective tissue to the prime 'verse then people would still bitch and praise it in equal measure.

It'd still be the same no matter what approach the filmmakers took. TOS threads would derail into tirads about how wrong they got it or how right they got it.

Instead of "the ship is too damn big!", we'd get "Spock's a woman!" or "McCoy's the engineer!" Oh, wait, we got that on Enterprise (show not ship).

 

[Mach5]

There are other ways to rationalize these things, of course, but sometimes the simplest explanation...

And the simplest explanation would be that the stardates have changed because TPTB didn't care about the stardate format (though changing it into gregorian calendar format was profoundly stupid and human-centric).

As for Spock asking Kirk about him not being the captain, well, since Spock knew that Nero had been there for 25 years, its safe to assume that he was also aware that this reality was significantly different than the one he came from. After all, it was nuSpock himself who came up with the alternate reality theory in the movie.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I know that they all got a pension for the films, but not that Shatner led the charge, so to speak. Yet, the gang of four still disparaged Shatner never mentioning how he fought for their retirement pay.

It's not usual for actors to discuss their contractual arrangements in public. The media also doesn't report the feel good stories very often, anyway. I've heard George Takei tell some great, positive Shatner anecdotes, but when he's being inteviewed by media, they want some dirt. And so many Shatner-upstaging-colleagues stories exist, that they still make great copy.

(He often used to ruin closeups of female co-stars by going cross-eyed in love scenes if he wasn't liking how the scene was unfolding - I've heard this from two women affected. Shatner could pass it off as a joke for the blooper reel, and everyone would laugh it off, but it was a lead actor's questionable method of undermining the director of the day, and getting his own way. It also increased the time others were required to be onstage for take after take.)

At least three sides to every showbiz anecdote. The story about Shatner fighting for pay deals (ST V) came from Richard Arnold, who's a staunch Shatner supporter, but I've heard others in the production team say that Director Shatner going in to fight for fair deals for five typecast colleagues was the only way he could get the cast to agree to work with him as director.

I've come to feel that the Shanter-Takei feud is part "acting" and part because both have a similar "myopic" approach to their roles in Star Trek. However, Shatner was the star of the show and Takei wasn't.

Sure. And Takei knows that, but fans wouldn't want him saying "No comment" for 40 years, either. Shatner stories sell magazines!

Takei, Koenig, Doohan and Nichols could get very little acting work from 1970 till the 2000s, due mainly to typecasting by Star Trek. They only got paid for something like one-screening-and-two-repeats, and the series was shown hundreds of times over. In the minds of casting directors, they were already working, because they were on TV every night, in prime time syndication. So they trained to be professional actors and ended up working weekends at conventions signing autographs and telling ST anecdotes ad infinitum. (In the early days it was often for very little fee, too.)

If Star Trek (2009) had been a straight reboot without the loose connective tissue to the prime 'verse then people would still bitch and praise it in equal measure.

Yep.

 

[barnaclelapse]

^ Once again, I'm not convinced that IS Spock prime. I still think it's just a straight remake thinly disguised as a reboot to make the canon nazis less-angry.

Amen on the canon nazi bit...

But I don't think prime Spock is dumb as an earlier poster said, we saw a wiser older Spock Prime with 200+ years of a adventerous life. He's learned so much that isn't always logical... we saw on Old Spock who understood things beyond his Vulcan "programming" while still holding on to his belief in logical thinking, that's his gift and his life's journey. We saw the greatest Spock ever seen on screen, the ability to crack a smile without ever smiling, to understand things that may never make any real sense, and the ability to accept what he can't explain. That is Spock's true genius, and why Nimoy is the best actor in Trek, and really understands his character.

So I was happy we saw Prime Spocks arc, even if it was a gift to the classic Trek fans. It made the story better, and gave it weight, and I truly enjoyed it all... and if I may be so bold: If Leonard Nimoy put his stamp of approval on this new Trek, that's good enough for me.

Exactly. At no point in the film did it feel like pure fan service. It was as important to the story and to the Trek mythology as anything else in the film. It's really my favorite aspect of the film because it's so rare to find a movie that can pull that off.

 

[JarodRussell]

Exactly. At no point in the film did it feel like pure fan service. It was as important to the story and to the Trek mythology as anything else in the film. It's really my favorite aspect of the film because it's so rare to find a movie that can pull that off.

Speaking of fan service, at some points in the movie I wasn't sure if it was fan service or simply unoriginal script recycling. Most of the time the characters were only reciting lines and actions from previous episodes and movies.

I have to say I cringed with every "I have been, and always shall be your friend", "I'm giving you all she's got", "Are you out of your Vulcan mind". They even let Spock say his (or actually Sherlock's) "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth" line. And the whole stuff about Spock "feeling fine".

Way too much fan service in my opinion.







So yeah, I would have preferred a straight reboot. One that makes Chekov a woman, Spock and alien with three eyes, that sort of thing, BSG style reboot.

 

[Cyke101]

Exactly. At no point in the film did it feel like pure fan service. It was as important to the story and to the Trek mythology as anything else in the film. It's really my favorite aspect of the film because it's so rare to find a movie that can pull that off.

Speaking of fan service, at some points in the movie I wasn't sure if it was fan service or simply unoriginal script recycling. Most of the time the characters were only reciting lines and actions from previous episodes and movies.

I have to say I cringed with every "I have been, and always shall be your friend", "I'm giving you all she's got", "Are you out of your Vulcan mind". They even let Spock say his (or actually Sherlock's) "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth" line. And the whole stuff about Spock "feeling fine".

Way too much fan service in my opinion.







So yeah, I would have preferred a straight reboot. One that makes Chekov a woman, Spock and alien with three eyes, that sort of thing, BSG style reboot.

Oh, I liked those little bits in the script. They were like rewards for those of us who watched every movie at least a dozen times.

But while some of those lines could be argued as overly fanservicey, I'd have to say they were almost obligated to have Scotty say "I'm givin' it all she's got!" Unlike the other lines you pointed out, that one was said pretty often in the show rather than the films, and it instantly conjures up images of Scotty. Getting rid of that line is like stopping Picard from saying "Make it so" and "Engage," ... or taking the word "Frak" out of both old and new BSG

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Yep, straight reboot it should have been. I think the tenuous connections to the 24th Century was the weakest part.

 

[BenRoethig]

As for Spock asking Kirk about him not being the captain, well, since Spock knew that Nero had been there for 25 years, its safe to assume that he was also aware that this reality was significantly different than the one he came from. After all, it was nuSpock himself who came up with the alternate reality theory in the movie.

I personally think that was either time lag, not knowing Kirk as anything other than the Captain of the Enterprise or a little bit of both. In the prime universe, Kirk had come to the Enterprise from a different command when replacing Pike.