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Ship sizes: ALL LIES! (big pics)

Welcome to the internet. Nice to meet you.


;) You'd think that after years and years online you'd get used to things.

Sorry, I know I'm sounding very nasty towards people who really are interested in this. For me personally the size of a starship has nothing to do with the story being told.
But there are people out there who enjoy picking things apart like that, so I should respect that.

Again, my apoligies if I offended anyone with my earlier comment.


When a fanatic is created trivia is the inevitable result and through discontinuity disagreement.

On that topic.

I'ved just confirmed that the Defiant can't simply be 4 decks as laid out by the MSD.
It's impossible for the bridge to be in it's proper position at that height in the MSD. It must be much smaller. I haven't determined whether David Schmidt's deck plans are correct in their estimations but it's perfectly clear that the MSD in the show is completely invalid for the actual ship.

Edit:
Correction. It looks like according to the litteral size and floor plan of the bridge it's still possible.
 
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Continuity and coherent design are very important in any film or TV show, Trek is no different.

In any drama you expect to see people living in homes, wearing clothes, using technology or riding around in vehicles that fit that period. There should be an internal logic to the design of sets and vessels shown on screen. If the story requires it to take 10 minutes to get from, say, the Bridge to Engineering via the Jeffries Tubes then the reported size of the ship and its internal spaces should be consistent with the storyline or vice versa. In other shows and films a huge amount of time and money is spent on getting these things right, so why not Trek - and if they get it wrong people notice and complain - Oscars are given for production design!

Personally, I really like Tech, so I am somewhat biased.

If we don't give the same respect to the Tech as we give to the plotlines then we may as well say starships have the same internal spatial attributes as the Tardis and be done with it. :techman:
 
Continuity and coherent design are very important in any film or TV show, Trek is no different.

In any drama you expect to see people living in homes, wearing clothes, using technology or riding around in vehicles that fit that period. There should be an internal logic to the design of sets and vessels shown on screen. If the story requires it to take 10 minutes to get from, say, the Bridge to Engineering via the Jeffries Tubes then the reported size of the ship and its internal spaces should be consistent with the storyline or vice versa.
This is not always or even usually the case. Most of the time size and internal spaces are only established to be relevant to MAJOR plot points and events most directly relevant to the basic storyline and founding premise. Other elements are sometimes added later that screw things up but are simply ignored because it's too late to redesign the entire ship to be consistent with them or it just isn't worth the effort. Halo's "Pillar of Autumn," for example, has the feature of having been designed and modeled at a little over a kilometer long, and then being designed with level interiors that don't actually fit inside the ship, including a long service corridor more than four times the ship's reported length.

For the more infamous Star Trek examples, all I need to say is "Deck 78."

Oscars are given for production design!
I can count on one hand the number of science fiction movies that have ever won an oscar for production design. No Star Trek movie has ever been nominated.

If we don't give the same respect to the Tech as we give to the plotlines then we may as well say starships have the same internal spatial attributes as the Tardis and be done with it. :techman:
I disagree, if only because anyone with a pencil and a ruler can draw a set of deck plans for a starship. But a compelling story takes a lot more work, and a compelling character takes a degree of subtlety and depth that tech nerds can rarely be bothered with. At the end of the day, the technical aspects are just scenery: lighting, set design, props, etc. Focusing on that is amusing to a point, but it's not at all relevant to the story or the quality of the production.

It's like watching a cowboy movie with a special eye for botany and architecture: is that species of flower likely to appear in 1870s Wyoming? Is the Sheriff's house an accurate example of post-war architecture and furniture? Is his accent period-appropriate? Is he carrying the right model Peacemaker or a similar type of gun that shouldn't exist for another 20 years?

Trek tech is more accessible because it's all MADE UP and you don't actually have to know anything about engineering or science or real physics to try and analyze it. This way, all of us tech nerds get to run around this forum pushing our really important and well-thought out opinions and hope that nobody realizes that we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about and just like to sound important.
 
I like the tech and the story as separate interests. My enjoyment (or non-enjoyment) of one usually doesn't effect the other.

I'm the same way with military aircraft. I'll watch a History Channel show wondering why the hell they're showing stock footage of a Bf-109G while they're talking about the Battle of Britain, wherein the 109E was fielded and the G hadn't been developed yet.
 
I disagree, if only because anyone with a pencil and a ruler can draw a set of deck plans for a starship.

Ouch! Have you tried? It aint as easy as it looks ya know! :p
Laying out a set of loft lines in a odd shaped outline, or drawing an empty circle and filling it with boxes labeled "thermo-cobobulater room" and the like is one thing, but actually coming up with a workable, fully integrated design is no different than designing a skyscraper or other complex real-world structure, and there's a reason why architects and engineers are so well trained and paid to do what they do.
 
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I think what non-techies might also forget or not appreciate is that each ship and bridge is in itself a work of (production/design) art, to be admired and fawned over as much as Trek scripts/acting/concepts etc.
 
I think what non-techies might also forget or not appreciate is that each ship and bridge is in itself a work of (production/design) art, to be admired and fawned over as much as Trek scripts/acting/concepts etc.

Bingo
 
...At the end of the day, the technical aspects are just scenery: lighting, set design, props, etc. Focusing on that is amusing to a point, but it's not at all relevant to the story or the quality of the production.

Really? Then why bother with it at all? By your appraisal the logistics of how people live and work aboard a starship is irrelevant. Just throw out all the eps that rely on the Tech for the story to happen - 'Relics', for instance?

...Trek tech is more accessible because it's all MADE UP and you don't actually have to know anything about engineering or science or real physics to try and analyze it. This way, all of us tech nerds get to run around this forum pushing our really important and well-thought out opinions and hope that nobody realizes that we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about and just like to sound important.

True, many aspects of Treknology do not exist in the real world, but the show's producers used real-world scientific advisors to ensure that the 'technobabble' was as close to real physics as was possible in an imaginary universe.

As for trying to sound important, I leave that to others. I just try to have fun with an aspect of Trek (and the real world) that I thoroughly enjoy. :techman:
 
I disagree, if only because anyone with a pencil and a ruler can draw a set of deck plans for a starship.

Ouch! Have you tried? It aint as easy as it looks ya know! :p
Indeed. Note that I didn't say they could draw GOOD deck plans for a starship.:evil:

Let's be honest with ourselves: crappy science fiction is easier to get away with than crappy fiction. I'm not sure WHY that is, but I think it's because alot of sci-fi fans are willing to let themselves get dazzled by the kewl explosions and pretty lights and temporarily overlook the fact that the story itself has no substance or depth to it.

You can have good sci-fi with bad science and good fiction, but you cannot have good sci-fi with good science and bad fiction. The only weird thing is that fans of science fiction in particular will sometimes forgive bad science fiction (up to a point) if the science is really really good.

Laying out a set of loft lines in a odd shaped outline, or drawing an empty circle and filling it with boxes labeled "thermo-cobobulater room" and the like is one thing, but actually coming up with a workable, fully integrated design is no different than designing a skyscraper or other complex real-world structure, and there's a reason why architects and engineers are so well trained and paid to do what they do.
Which, while true, doesn't mean anything for a science fiction production, especially in television, where most of that work won't be reflected on screen and some of it is bound to be abrogated by production concerns anyway.

And in science fiction, no matter how badly you screw up the technical aspect, a good story and compelling acting can more than make up for it.
 
By your appraisal the logistics of how people live and work aboard a starship is irrelevant.
Yes. Unless, of course, your story is ABOUT how people live and work aboard a starship like in "Data's Day" or "The Lower Decks" or something.

Just throw out all the eps that rely on the Tech for the story to happen - 'Relics', for instance?
Why would I throw them out? Tech is a perfectly good plot device for driving a story. But tech ISN'T the story, and explaining it doesn't add anything to it. So Scotty walking off the transporter pad is, story wise, equivalent to Dock-J getting hit by a sniper in Full Metal Jacket. We don't need to know the technical aspects of an AK-47 to understand that scene, anymore than we need to know the technical aspects of a transporter to understand Scotty's arrival. Suffice to say, the device can be rigged to do what it does in this scene, evidently with some difficulty and knowledge that only one character in the scene possesses.

...Trek tech is more accessible because it's all MADE UP and you don't actually have to know anything about engineering or science or real physics to try and analyze it. This way, all of us tech nerds get to run around this forum pushing our really important and well-thought out opinions and hope that nobody realizes that we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about and just like to sound important.

True, many aspects of Treknology do not exist in the real world, but the show's producers used real-world scientific advisors to ensure that the 'technobabble' was as close to real physics as was possible in an imaginary universe.
In TMP, yes. But not since then.
 
Most good hard sci fi is ABOUT tech - but not just about the tech itself, it's about how people deal with new tech, how the tech affects society, etc.
 
[Trek tech is more accessible because it's all MADE UP and you don't actually have to know anything about engineering or science or real physics to try and analyze it. This way, all of us tech nerds get to run around this forum pushing our really important and well-thought out opinions and hope that nobody realizes that we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about and just like to sound important.

Heh heh, fuckin'-A, Newtype! It's fun to discuss and I enjoy crunching ship dimensions numbers (perhaps a little too much than is good for me), but some people get wayyy to bent out of shape about it and all huffy if their position on a topic is disagreed upon. Good science will ALWAYS be sacrificed for the needs of the story, whether by intent or by necessity...it's not like they had infinite time to get the episode in the can by airtime.

People, just enjoy your Trek. :)
 
i know that i am very late coming in to this thread having just discovered it by accident. but i have been working for years 10+ on drawing a cad version of the TOS enterprise with the goal of making it accurate to the 11 foot model, and using primarily the Frank Joseph blue prints along with any other sources that i can get my hands on. (that is how i got here). i can say being 95 percent done yea!!!! that it all works so far now i admit i haven't poured over all the episodes looking for flaws but personally i think that i would look at the big things and over look some small details except for the dialog that went along for the ride. Such as the number of decks where things were located etc. the reason that it took so long is i am also addin
 
I'd mainly use onscreen sources, with the TOS bible as well as Matt Jefferies' and Doug Drexler's cutaways as secondary reference (except for the Defiant, where the second cutaway is very important). The correct exterior lines shouldn't be too hard to reproduce these days, though only a few people have access to Gary Kerr's reconstructed blueprints.
 
Continuity and coherent design are very important in any film or TV show, Trek is no different....

In other shows and films a huge amount of time and money is spent on getting these things right, so why not Trek - and if they get it wrong people notice and complain - Oscars are given for production design!

Which shows and films spend that huge amount of time and money? Just curious. If it matters I like Trek tech as much as many other contributors to this forum.

I doubt many Oscars are denied to movies for not syncing up the exterior and interior views of a particular environment, or not ensuring that all the depicted rooms of a house can actually fit within that house.
 
nBSG has a greater number of interesting and daring stories than most of Trek, yet I doubt anyone knows the lead ship's deck count, let alone the layout. I'll be the first to admit that it isn't really about the tech, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed seriously whenever it is being discussed. A lot of people assume that whoever discusses tech isn't interested in the story, which simply isn't true in my experience. I haven't seen most of VOY and I skipped all but one or two episodes of ENT because of poor reviews.
 
gary kerr's reconstructed blueprints? this is a new source for me. how do i get a copy? i have a web site that has about 50-60 pics of the eleven foot model that i have been using for my project. along with the FJ blue prints and every site that google can find with discussions and or drawings that other people have made.
 
nBSG has a greater number of interesting and daring stories than most of Trek, yet I doubt anyone knows the lead ship's deck count, let alone the layout
Even the producers don't really know, because they never bothered to specify it. A few vague locations were mentioned and sets were built to represent them, but the actual layout of those locations and their positions relative to one another is never made clear. It's been implied they left it intentionally vague in order to make storytelling simpler, and this is probably fortunate, because even the few things that AREN'T vague are contradictory and sometimes confusing.

The main focus on set design in major productions is on aesthetics, lighting and filming angles. In a contradiction between set design and filming miniatures, set design wins, because 99% of the work of actually FILMING THE SHOW goes into set design. In some productions the miniatures and exteriors aren't even fleshed out until post-production, IF THEN. Star Trek went out of its way to work out the technical minutia because they assumed their target audience was expecting it. It was a safe assumption as far as a small highly vocal subset of the fanbase, but they spent a lot more time and energy working out the technical details and set design than they did on character and story development, and in the end some of the shows--Enterprise in particular--reflected it.

To use an example fresh in my mind: for all the time they spent designing the look of the engine room and the bridge of NX-01, you would think a similar amount of effort would go into developing some set of early protocols for, say, contacting unknown aliens for the first time or visiting an unexplored world for the first time. Instead we get Archer hailing an alien ship and rambling on like a twelve-year-old on a HAM radio, and two episodes later we have him take a shuttlepod down to an uncharted and totally unexplored world--no probes, no sensor scans, no area survey for harmful flora/fauna-- and immediately start posing for photos.

Technically detailed set design is one thing, but technically detailed character interaction is just as important, especially in sci-fi.
 
gary kerr's reconstructed blueprints? this is a new source for me. how do i get a copy? i have a web site that has about 50-60 pics of the eleven foot model that i have been using for my project. along with the FJ blue prints and every site that google can find with discussions and or drawings that other people have made.

The only way anybody is gonna get a hold of Gary Kerr's drawings is to break into his house and hope they happen to be laying out on the dining room table. CBS has those puppies locked up nice and tight, so that the only people who get to see them are licensees who have a need to see them.
 
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